The end of leagues as we know?

[jjmc85]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

So who is the mystery Hockey East team rumored to be in the conversation?

At first, one would have to think BC or BU, but would one of them really leave the conference without the other? If not them, who else?

Well, it seems like they want hockey schools. These would be BU, Maine, UNH, Vermont, UML, Merrimack and Northeastern. I don't think it's BU for the above reason, and you could say the same about Maine and UNH. No offense to their fans, but I doubt UML and Merrimack are being invited to any super conference. I don't see Northeastern leaving BU and BC, but they have left BU in the past, so I guess maybe it could be them. But, and no offense to them, does a super league really want Northeastern? I don't know enough about Vermont's situation, but they just joined. Are they going to leave so soon?

For completeness sake, unfortunately UMass is in the same boat at NU, UML and Merrimack, as is Providence College.

I'd think everyone has too good of a thing going in Hockey East to leave. Why leave a great bus-league to join an airplane league with Big 10 leftovers? It doesn't make sense.

 

[Dude Love]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

This is gayer than a bag of dicks.

 

[Skeeterman]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

This could suck really bad.

 

[dggoddard]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

This is gayer than a bag of dicks.

Let's leave Colorado College fans out of this.

 

[TigerFan86-87]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

Nice comparison - a 2000 seat barn in a metro area of over 600,000 selling out for UConn (a name if not a good hockey team) and Bemidji State in a 2500 seat barn in a metro area of 30,000 against Robert Morris or Niagara (schools that have zero name, regional or hockey recognition in northern Minnesota). And Mankato is under 100,000. In a rink that holds 5,000 (who cares about Alaska-Anchorage?). Look at it this way:

2100 is .35% of the population of Rochester
2500 is 8.3% of the population of Bemidji *
4373 is 14.6% of the population of Bemidji **
5000 is 5.3% of the population of Mankato

Yeah - if RIT struggles to sell out, the marketing guy should be fired. If BSU or MSUM struggles to sell out, there's likely a good reason (bad team, tickets are too expensive, bad economy, etc.). Just so you know, you are bragging about RIT selling the equivalent of 105 tickets a game in Bemidji and 333 tickets a game in Mankato (.35% of those metro areas). Might I suggest you go back and look at attendance for BSU and MSUM and look at games with that info in your head.

* John Glas Fieldhouse
** Sanford Center

Just as a point of clarification. Yes, Rochester is a much larger community than Bemidji or Mankato. But by the same token, there is a lot more to do in Rochester (I'm not bragging - we're not NYC or Boston or anything, but are still much larger than fine cities like Bemidji or Mankato). RIT hockey is nowhere near the # 1 attraction in town. We have our own AHL team that is the much bigger draw (especially now that the Amerks and Sabres are once again affiliated), a major league indoor lacrosse team, a minor league basketball team, etc. etc. RIT hockey has gained some ground in the general public after all the FF attention they got a couple seasons ago and a raised marketing effort, but are still primarily supported by students, staff, and alumni above all else. And with only a < 2000 seat arena, they don't need to kill themselves trying to market to many others. Nearly all games played while school is in session sell out and even the few played while students are not around come pretty close. In addition, they play one game per season at the local AHL barn and have drawn > 7000 and a sellout of > 10000 in the last two seasons. So if they tried hard enough, they could draw more from the general public. But to this point do not need to. We'll see what happens when they get the new larger arena.

 

[joecct]

I wonder if the day has come to form a bonafide NCAA D-2 league? Of course the smaller and have not schools would currently not be in favor of such an idea but you can only run from reality for so long.

You need 40 teams to resurrect a D-II championship.

 

[MavsFan]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

You completely missed the main point. A WCHA consisting of Mankato, Bemidji, St. Cloud, Duluth, (and I wouldn't be surprised to see one r both of St. Cloud/Duluth go to the new conference) Tech, and Anchorage is, de facto, a D-II league. Nothing there tells casual fans "big-time college sports league."

That's pretty much the same schools we already play in other sports in the Northern Sun Conference. It's not only needing the gate from the games against the big schools. It's that the gate against the other schools will drop too, because the whole **** league will be seen as ho-hum.

 

[Dude Love]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

You completely missed the main point. A WCHA consisting of Mankato, Bemidji, St. Cloud, Duluth, (and I wouldn't be surprised to see one r both of St. Cloud/Duluth go to the new conference) Tech, and Anchorage is, de facto, a D-II league. Nothing there tells casual fans "big-time college sports league."

That's pretty much the same schools we already play in other sports in the Northern Sun Conference. It's not only needing the gate from the games against the big schools. It's that the gate against the other schools will drop too, because the whole **** league will be seen as ho-hum.

UMD just won the NCAA Title. Fail.

We can just team up with Northern, Western, Ferris, etc. to fill out one big conference. Also, I should have known that UND would be the ones to go out and try to ruin hockey.

 

[MavsFan]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

UMD just won the NCAA Title. Fail.

We can just team up with Northern, Western, Ferris, etc. to fill out one big conference. Also, I should have known that UND would be the ones to go out and try to ruin hockey.

Did you miss the part where I said I wouldn't be surprised to see Duluth go to the new "super conference?"

The average fan around here has never heard of Northern, Western, or Ferris. And adding them would still leave the WCHA as a de facto D-II conference.

Understand, I'm not just talking about the attendance from the Minnesota, Wisconsin, or North Dakota games being the issue. They don't even come to town every year. It is the perception among fans that this is one sport that we compete in a "big-time" league that helps keep interest up. Take away that perception, and simply play hockey against D-II schools that we play in football and basketball, and the mystique is gone. And I'll bet that's the case for a lot of the other schools that are going to be left behind to live on the crumbs.

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

This confirms what I had heard a week ago...

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/208516

MIGHT get UAH a league...but MIGHT destroy the WCHA and CCHA. Not sure I like a league filled with the "leftovers".

I'd be very surprised to see UND leave the WCHA. This comes across to me as pathetic revenue driven political posturing to leverage pressure on McLeod to add two new teams to the WCHA...that's all. And I think that's exactly what will happen in the next couple years

 

[SiouxFanatic]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

UMD just won the NCAA Title. Fail.

We can just team up with Northern, Western, Ferris, etc. to fill out one big conference. Also, I should have known that UND would be the ones to go out and try to ruin hockey.

I can't tell if sarcasm is being thrown in this statement or not. One could say that the BTHC is the catalyst for the possible "ruin" of hockey. So if anything, blame the catalyst.

 

[slurpees]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

So who is the mystery Hockey East team rumored to be in the conversation?

At first, one would have to think BC or BU, but would one of them really leave the conference without the other? If not them, who else?

Well, it seems like they want hockey schools. These would be BU, Maine, UNH, Vermont, UML, Merrimack and Northeastern. I don't think it's BU for the above reason, and you could say the same about Maine and UNH. No offense to their fans, but I doubt UML and Merrimack are being invited to any super conference. I don't see Northeastern leaving BU and BC, but they have left BU in the past, so I guess maybe it could be them. But, and no offense to them, does a super league really want Northeastern? I don't know enough about Vermont's situation, but they just joined. Are they going to leave so soon?

For completeness sake, unfortunately UMass is in the same boat at NU, UML and Merrimack, as is Providence College.

I'd think everyone has too good of a thing going in Hockey East to leave. Why leave a great bus-league to join an airplane league with Big 10 leftovers? It doesn't make sense.

The mystery HE team really doesn't make much sense. Only BU, BC, UNH, and Maine would be considered, let's be real, no one's looking to poach Lowell, PC, or anyone else, the brand power just isn't there. Northeastern left BU in basketball, totally different story than this, and they didn't really "leave" so much as both were extended invites to the CAA, BU turned it down and NU accepted.

UNH and Maine, on state budgets, very likely aren't going to jump at the idea you stated of leaving an already powerful bus trip league to be making regular trips to the midwest against average and above average teams. That leaves BU and BC. 0% chance Parker goes for this idea, and he calls the shots. The most likely candidate as the mystery team, BC, with their BCS name, rivalry with ND, could theoretically make the jump. But why would they? I seriously doubt Jerry would want anything to do with this, would hate the travel, and would hate getting rid of home games with BU, UNH, and Maine. Sure regular games against North Dakota, Notre Dame, and Miami would be nice, but you can accomplish playing that level of competition in Hockey East in a bus ride. However, DeFillipo has made a conference shift before. But with that already high ACC travel budget, do they want to pile onto it even more when it's not necessary?

None of this makes sense for any HE team. The remaining western teams are no better than equal to the quality of HE play, but they're all a time zone or two away.

 

[dggoddard]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

I'd be very surprised to see UND leave the WCHA. This comes across to me as pathetic revenue driven political posturing to leverage pressure on McLeod to add two new teams to the WCHA...that's all. And I think that's exactly what will happen in the next couple years

There is only one reason why this new conference is forming; Wisconsin & Minnesota left the WCHA. There is no way that UND, CC or DU would have left the WCHA without their departures.

TV revenue is not driving this deal, neither are attendance issues or money; its all about recruiting and building brand awareness at the schools who join the new conference.

None of the other Minnesota schools will join the new conference because they don't want to or are unable to spend the money on travel. That's straight from several WCHA sources at the Final 5.

Sounds to me like the eight team conference will be DU, CC, Notre Dame, Boston College, Miami, North Dakota, Western Michigan & Nebraska-Omaha. Notre Dame is clearly the straw that stirs the drink in this deal.

Why would BC join a new conference with western schools? Recruiting and of course the chance to join up with Notre Dame.

What about travel costs? All the schools mentioned above have hockey budgets in the $2-4 million range, $140,000 in travel is a drop in the bucket [$20,000 X 7 plane trips]. DU & CC's travel costs will probably decease as they will only need to take five conference plane trips.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

TV revenue is not driving this deal, neither are attendance issues or money; its all about recruiting and building brand awareness at the schools who join the new conference.

And yet you say this on your blog today ...

Great "name brand" opponents coming into Magness Arena each weekend would be great news for DU hockey fans.

And in the past your "rationale" given often included references to the lost revenue from the decline in attendance. Nevermind anyway, I always recognized that "rationale" was a contrivance necessary to supplement the Alumni-ego when the true reason you support (nay ... deeply desire) the formation of a BHHC is instead to stroke that ego in the absence of the overshadowing Big10 programs that just left you ****ing in the wind.

By aligning the proposed schools you appeal to a sense that while none of them can imagine themselves to be Big10 schools they can certainly become/portray themselves as superior to all the other D-2 schools. It's more classic Edward Bernays PR. "Look at us ... the big boys may have left the rest of us but we're all the biggest of the rest."

So in essence ... it's Butt Hurt City which lies at the core of this imaginary realignment. Nothing more. And if Ken Ralph at CC isn't sharp enough to see that the whole concept is just nothing more than a dick measuring contest for butt hurt "mid-majors", I'll be deeply surprised.

Don't be so mad brah. It's a state school/private school mismatch. The Big10 schools (and lots of other state schools) are always going to be better schools than DU. Learn to accept your schools true place in the hierarchy ... it's one of hundreds of mid-sized private universities that overcharge on tuition. The only thing that makes DU in anyway standout for any number of school names that I could rattle off is that they had some national success in their history at one niche sport.

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

There is only one reason why this new conference is forming; Wisconsin & Minnesota left the WCHA. There is no way that UND, CC or DU would have left the WCHA without their departures.

TV revenue is not driving this deal, neither are attendance issues or money; its all about recruiting and building brand awareness at the schools who join the new conference.

None of the other Minnesota schools will join the new conference because they don't want to or are unable to spend the money on travel. That's straight from several WCHA sources at the Final 5.

Sounds to me like the eight team conference will be DU, CC, Notre Dame, Boston College, Miami, North Dakota, Western Michigan & Nebraska-Omaha. Notre Dame is clearly the straw that stirs the drink in this deal.

Why would BC join a new conference with western schools? Recruiting and of course the chance to join up with Notre Dame.

What about travel costs? All the schools mentioned above have hockey budgets in the $2-4 million range, $140,000 in travel is a drop in the bucket [$20,000 X 7 plane trips]. DU & CC's travel costs will probably go decease as they will only need to take five conference plane trips.

I think your proposition is extremely speculative. There is obvious concern that the WCHA will lose some it's luster when MN and UW leave. But realistically brand marketing is all about the bottom line...profit margin. The natural "knee jerk" reaction is for schools to speculate on hockey revenue projections with the departure of MN and UW, and look at financially sustainable options to generate more revenue.

IMO this is simply revenue driven chatter and politicizing at the core by a couple outspoken schools and it's entirely premature. No corporate organizational structure is in place at this juncture to conduct the due diligence necessary to seriously consider the parameters of such a proposition much less operationalize it.

I will be very surprised to see any conference formed like the one you mentioned in the near future. It should be interesting to see what McLeod delivers to the WCHA as notable schools that can reasonably replace the loss of MN and UW and continue to enhance the public's image of quality NCAA competition within the WCHA.

 

[dggoddard]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

I think your proposition is extremely speculative. There is obvious concern that the WCHA will lose some it's luster when MN and UW leave. But realistically brand marketing is all about the bottom line...profit margin. The natural "knee jerk" reaction is for schools to speculate on hockey revenue projections with the departure of MN and UW, and look at financially sustainable options to generate more revenue.

IMO this is simply revenue driven chatter and politicizing at the core by a couple outspoken schools and it's entirely premature. No corporate organizational structure is in place at this juncture to conduct the due diligence necessary to seriously consider the parameters of such a proposition much less operationalize it.

I will be very surprised to see any conference formed like the one you mentioned in the near future. It should be interesting to see what McLeod delivers to the WCHA as notable schools that can reasonably replace the loss of MN and UW and continue to enhance the public's image of quality NCAA competition within the WCHA.

Non-profits [universities, hospitals] hire brand consultants at a proportionally higher rate than for-profit business. When it comes to education and medicine people want the best.

Its only speculative at this juncture because no one is sure what Notre Dame will do. Once that is determined, the dominoes will fall into place. What we do know is that Notre Dame has said they will not remain in the CCHA and now North Dakota is publicly exploring leaving the WCHA. The schools involved in the breakaway conference have been conducting "due diligence" for the past six months.

As I've said before, its not revenue that's driving this deal, its recruiting. DU, UND, BC, Miami and the others want to recruit potential first round draft picks. They believe that they will be at a disadvantage recruiting against the Big 10 schools, unless they form a strong conference.

Clearly North Dakota and Notre Dame want to send a message to potential recruits that change is coming and they will be playing in the best hockey conference possible.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

As I've said before, its not revenue that's driving this deal, its recruiting. DU, UND, BC, Miami and the others want to recruit potential first round draft picks. They believe that they will be at a disadvantage recruiting against the Big 10 schools, unless they form a strong conference.

Because Big10 schools didn't lock up the majority of so-called elite prospects before they formed their own conference? Suddenly because those schools will be in som magical super-league the other so-called elite prospects will take a pass on going to BC, Miami or UND? No kids like Jaden Schawrtz stand a chance in the BTHC era do they? I'm sure Jaden wouldn't have chosen D-III Colorado College if the Big Ten had already been formed.

Quit pretending what it's about already. Own your pain. Admit it's all about feeling insecure your institution's perceived STATUS in the hierarchy. You'll feel better after you do. Then we can all stop this pretending about imaginary scenarios.

And oh yeah ... you can't hide from the application of the BHHC label.

 

[moose97]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

Just as a point of clarification. Yes, Rochester is a much larger community than Bemidji or Mankato. But by the same token, there is a lot more to do in Rochester (I'm not bragging - we're not NYC or Boston or anything, but are still much larger than fine cities like Bemidji or Mankato). RIT hockey is nowhere near the # 1 attraction in town. We have our own AHL team that is the much bigger draw (especially now that the Amerks and Sabres are once again affiliated), a major league indoor lacrosse team, a minor league basketball team, etc. etc. RIT hockey has gained some ground in the general public after all the FF attention they got a couple seasons ago and a raised marketing effort, but are still primarily supported by students, staff, and alumni above all else. And with only a < 2000 seat arena, they don't need to kill themselves trying to market to many others. Nearly all games played while school is in session sell out and even the few played while students are not around come pretty close. In addition, they play one game per season at the local AHL barn and have drawn > 7000 and a sellout of > 10000 in the last two seasons. So if they tried hard enough, they could draw more from the general public. But to this point do not need to. We'll see what happens when they get the new larger arena.

And my point was that even though BSU basketball and football - sports that are nowhere near as popular as BSU hockey and likely closer to the 4th, 5th or 6th sporting option (behind high school and youth sports in Bemidji) can draw 105 fans in their sleep. Maybe you see it as there being "more to do" in Rochester than in Bemidji, but as I was just discussing yesterday, the stuff you can do in Bemidji is likely free or less expensive (youth sports, high school sports, ice fishing, snowmobiling, skiing, show shoeing, curling, etc. in winter, plus we have a nice symphony orchestra, and summer theatre - this perception that there is "more" to do in big cities is held by people that have never lived in small cities). I still don't see drawing .35% of your population as something to brag about. Sell out your AHL barn for RIT games every game (10,000 is 1.6% of the metro area) and then you an brag about attendance compared to BSU or Mankato.

 

[giwan]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

So BC will recruit better when they play a bunch of western schools? Really?

 

[CHFAN222]

Re: The end of leagues as we know?

Just because they are talking doesn't mean much. The schools would be fools to not talk to each other. At the end of the day though the WCHA will be fine. As far as ND goes they would be more likely to join HE than for BC to join some western hockey conference. This new hockey conference is not going to have a crazy TV contract a la ACC football. Also BC already is getting the best local recruits in New England so they don't really have a need to join HE. I really doubt that the B10 schools are going to start snatching away all that Boston area talent.