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The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Timothy A said:
I will get to this, but I do not have enough time right now....
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Thanks. I did not mean to come off as disrespectful. The whole thing does not make much sense to me, but neither does anything beyond physics 101.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

burd said:
Thanks. I did not mean to come off as disrespectful. The whole thing does not make much sense to me, but neither does anything beyond physics 101.
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You didn't, my brain read your questions are you being respectfully curious. :).

So, Satin was just waiting in the wings. He held an uprising against God, and God tossed him into the sinbin, (earth). When Adam and Eve sinned, that caused the imperfection (sin), and God hates sin and demands our full obedience here on Earth, just as he has in Heaven.

God promised a Savior pretty much right away in Genesis and reinforced this promise in other Old Testament books (and confirmed by what Jesus said and did and by God's Word in the New Testament). God was impatient with humans the second Adam and Eve sinned. Nothing that any human can do can match the perfection demanded by God. So the last straw was actually the first straw.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Timothy A said:
So the last straw was actually the first straw.
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I think the question was why he waits until around 5 BC to send Gabriel to break the news to Mary. Or I guess since Mary's also an immaculate conception we should backdate it another 20 years when God popped Ann. By Biblical time that's about 4000 years between The Fall and Jesus. Seeing as Man was up to his usual tricks all through that time, what was it that happened around 25 BC that God finally said, "Oh enough already. Son, I've got a job for you."?

Or perhaps it was a good thing, as God through Jesus redeems Man. What was it that we did right around 25 BC to deserve the reward?
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

However you approach it, Paradise Lost is a really good read as literature.
The poem concerns the Biblical story of the Fall of Man: the temptation of Adam and Eve by the fallen angel Satan and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Milton's purpose, stated in Book I, is to "justify the ways of God to men".
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Also, whether you're religious or not everyone should read Ecclesiastes very thoughtfully and at least sample the psalms in King James, if only for the beauty of the language.
(I've been sold on KJV since I saw "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death" translated as "even though I'm in a dark place right now", in a newer translation. That's just a depressing regression.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

geezer said:
However you approach it, Paradise Lost is a really good read as literature.

Also, whether you're religious or not everyone should read Ecclesiastes very thoughtfully and at least sample the psalms in King James, if only for the beauty of the language.
(I've been sold on KJV since I saw "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death" translated as "even though I'm in a dark place right now", in a newer translation. That's just a depressing regression.
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Seconded. Being religious or not is independent of appreciating the Bible as literature. For one thing, the KJV is just jaw-droppingly beautiful. (It's also my favorie counter-example when somebody says "nothing good was ever created by committee.") For another, it blows your mind, particularly if you were not raised in a tradition of reading the Bible, just how many cultural references to it there are across western literature. It's like Hamlet in that virtually every passage has acquired additional cultural resonsances, particulary the Pentateuch and Gospels.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Kepler said:
Seconded. Being religious or not is independent of appreciating the Bible as literature. For one thing, the KJV is just jaw-droppingly beautiful. (It's also my favorie counter-example when somebody says "nothing good was ever created by committee.") For another, it blows your mind, particularly if you were not raised in a tradition of reading the Bible, just how many cultural references to it there are across western literature. It's like Hamlet in that virtually every passage has acquired additional cultural resonsances, particulary the Pentateuch and Gospels.
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I sometimes wonder, listening to oldies (when my girls like to remind me that they prefer "newies" sung by someone named Taylor Swift), how many Americans would first attribute these words to the Old Testament if you asked them where they came from:

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
 
geezer said:
I sometimes wonder, listening to oldies (when my girls like to remind me that they prefer "newies" sung by someone named Taylor Swift), how many Americans would first attribute these words to the Old Testament if you asked them where they came from:

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
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This is for the Byrds.
 
burd said:
Thanks. I did not mean to come off as disrespectful. The whole thing does not make much sense to me, but neither does anything beyond physics 101.
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Not to worry. Christianity is much easier than physics 101. When you take the Christianity final, the answer is always "d) because God wanted it that way." There's no more logic to it than there is to the story of Little Red Riding Hood - nothing that actually requires understanding. If you want to believe, then just go with it. But don't try to understand the un-understandable.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

LynahFan said:
Not to worry. Christianity is much easier than physics 101. When you take the Christianity final, the answer is always "d) because God wanted it that way." There's no more logic to it than there is to the story of Little Red Riding Hood - nothing that actually requires understanding. If you want to believe, then just go with it. But don't try to understand the un-understandable.
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This here's a boy who hasn't tried to study Aquinas.

I know what you're saying, and at the simple, teleological level you are 100% correct.

But as with everything, the beauty is in the details. You could as easily say, science is easy because the answer is always "Cuz that's the way it is." :p
 
Kepler said:
I think the question was why he waits until around 5 BC to send Gabriel to break the news to Mary. Or I guess since Mary's also an immaculate conception we should backdate it another 20 years when God popped Ann. By Biblical time that's about 4000 years between The Fall and Jesus. Seeing as Man was up to his usual tricks all through that time, what was it that happened around 25 BC that God finally said, "Oh enough already. Son, I've got a job for you."?

Or perhaps it was a good thing, as God through Jesus redeems Man. What was it that we did right around 25 BC to deserve the reward?
Click to expand...

The immaculate conception of Mary just means she was born without original sin, not that she was miraculously conceived.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Kepler said:
I think the question was why he waits until around 5 BC to send Gabriel to break the news to Mary. Or I guess since Mary's also an immaculate conception we should backdate it another 20 years when God popped Ann. By Biblical time that's about 4000 years between The Fall and Jesus. Seeing as Man was up to his usual tricks all through that time, what was it that happened around 25 BC that God finally said, "Oh enough already. Son, I've got a job for you."?

Or perhaps it was a good thing, as God through Jesus redeems Man. What was it that we did right around 25 BC to deserve the reward?
Click to expand...
Really? That's your qeustion? My question has always been that if God made things so perfect, and Eden was perfection on Earth, then why did this all powerful being allow a sneaky God dammed snake and a forbidden apple into His paradise in the first place? Even if the snake was Satan, the All Powerful Oz should have been able to remove him at a moment's notice and nothing more would come of it. Knowing the natual temptations of Man (which He put into Man), why did He make Adam's only other companion in this paradise a naked woman? Why not another dude and therefore nothing comes from it other than Adam having a frat style beer party in paradise? Why not clothe both Adam and Eve in order to simply reduce the temptation? And what's with all the ****ing cleverly placed fig leaves?
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

St. Clown said:
Really? That's your qeustion? My question has always been that if God made things so perfect, and Eden was perfection on Earth, then why did this all powerful being allow a sneaky God dammed snake and a forbidden apple into His paradise in the first place? Even if the snake was Satan, the All Powerful Oz should have been able to remove him at a moment's notice and nothing more would come of it. Knowing the natual temptations of Man (which He put into Man), why did He make Adam's only other companion in this paradise a naked woman? Why not another dude and therefore nothing comes from it other than Adam having a frat style beer party in paradise? Why not clothe both Adam and Eve in order to simply reduce the temptation? And what's with all the ****ing cleverly placed fig leaves?
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It's not my question. It was the question.

I have no questions about religion -- I understand what its origin, function, and value is. I have my suspicions about the psychology of people who imagine it's literal, but that's neither here nor there.
 
St. Clown said:
Really? That's your qeustion? My question has always been that if God made things so perfect, and Eden was perfection on Earth, then why did this all powerful being allow a sneaky God dammed snake and a forbidden apple into His paradise in the first place? Even if the snake was Satan, the All Powerful Oz should have been able to remove him at a moment's notice and nothing more would come of it. Knowing the natual temptations of Man (which He put into Man), why did He make Adam's only other companion in this paradise a naked woman? Why not another dude and therefore nothing comes from it other than Adam having a frat style beer party in paradise? Why not clothe both Adam and Eve in order to simply reduce the temptation? And what's with all the ****ing cleverly placed fig leaves?
Click to expand...

Free will. The early writers portrayed that each of us had a choice. Simply put for those times it was to obey God or not. The consequences for not obeying God were always bad. The consequences for obeying God were always good.

But then there was Job.
 
joecct said:
Free will. The early writers portrayed that each of us had a choice. Simply put for those times it was to obey God or not. The consequences for not obeying God were always bad. The consequences for obeying God were always good.

But then there was Job.
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God sounds like a real *****. Gives us free will and then gets ****ed when we actually use it.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Kepler said:
I think the question was why he waits until around 5 BC to send Gabriel to break the news to Mary. Or I guess since Mary's also an immaculate conception we should backdate it another 20 years when God popped Ann. By Biblical time that's about 4000 years between The Fall and Jesus. Seeing as Man was up to his usual tricks all through that time, what was it that happened around 25 BC that God finally said, "Oh enough already. Son, I've got a job for you."?

Or perhaps it was a good thing, as God through Jesus redeems Man. What was it that we did right around 25 BC to deserve the reward?
Click to expand...

Of course nobody knows. But I'll take a shot.

Perhaps God planned the Bible as the platform by which the key message was to be nailed down and the world influenced. And perhaps its how long it took for all the pieces to take place...societal conditions leading to the right conditions, key figures such as John the Baptist or Harrod, societal sophistication for the capture/cataloguing of messages, long range communications infrastructure for the dissemination of messages. etc. One might also ask...then why didn't God just create conditions earlier? Perhaps again because His desire for free will among peoples didn't allow it. In other words, if you assume freewill as a plank of Divine behavior and the Bible as a preplanned spark then the time period begins to make some sense. Things did seem to come together quite well for the whole Bible and seemingly use the Roman empire to reach what is today western civilization.
 
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