The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Would you say differences in opportunity from birth due to ancestors' wealth are "unjust"? Those account for BY FAR the greatest lack of freedom experienced by American citizens.

While family wealth certainly helps, it is by no means a guarantee of success. There are plenty of examples of people p*ssing away their advantages and becoming drug addicts, just like there are examples of those who overcome broken homes to lead very successful lives. I don't know about you, but I would much rather be brought up in a lower middle class household here in America than be brought up in just about ANY household in the vast majority of countries around the world. To b*tch about lack of freedom and opportunity here of all places is just laughable given how things are in basically the entire developing world (which constitutes the vast majority of the population on earth at this point).

5mn, the rationale for a lower tax rate on capital gains is to encourage investment. That money funds companies which presumably buy more equipment and hire more employees. While you might be "just sitting there", your money is not - unless you parked it in the bank (since we know they aren't putting it to any use due to their reluctance to lend of late).

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

First of all it depends on how your define freedom.

That has been the beauty of America. It has been the place where where you come from has mattered less than most anywhere on the planet. I'd say the gov't perpetuating protecting that inequality (such as the caste system) is unjust. If its due to someone producing items that the public wants and passing their wealth down its none of the gov't business.

My question is how is it the government's role to equalize the outcomes?

The vast majority of people agree with the statement "America is fair as long as people get a fair shake." The differences of opinion come down over what constitutes a fair shake, and what methods should be used to help people get one who otherwise would not.

This is one of those issues where there's merit on both sides and sane people from both sides can make compromises. The ideologues who start with "thou shalt not..."s are simply no help, and they get far too much attention.

 

[Plante26]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The vast majority of people agree with the statement "America is fair as long as people get a fair shake." The differences of opinion come down over what constitutes a fair shake, and what methods should be used to help people get one who otherwise would not.

A "fair shake" is being afforded a free basic education. What a person does with that opportunity is up to them. From there, student loans will get you as smrt as you want to be.

The primary determining factor in differing outcomes isn't opportunity. It's talent, determination and work ethic.

 

[joecct]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

THIS might be the big push to get something done.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

5mn, the rationale for a lower tax rate on capital gains is to encourage investment. That money funds companies which presumably buy more equipment and hire more employees. While you might be "just sitting there", your money is not - unless you parked it in the bank (since we know they aren't putting it to any use due to their reluctance to lend of late).

Of course, I get that.

Again, we're talking comparatives here...I think we should be incenting hard work over having cash. Likewise, does it mean that if I'm taxed at higher rates on money, I will choose to put my money under a mattress? I don't think so. But if I'm taxed higher for my labor, I might choose to go on welfare. With our preferential taxation treatment of money over labor, we aren't incenting people to work harder. Also, I would assume the number one reason (after age) people decide to stop working is due to the fact that their money is earning them money...certainly a way to motivate people to add less value to society.

As someone with a chunk of cash earning money for me, I see this as a nudge, wink situation for the affuent.

 

[joecct]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Of course, I get that.

Again, we're talking comparatives here...I think we should be incenting hard work over having cash. Likewise, does it mean that if I'm taxed at higher rates on money, I will choose to put my money under a mattress? I don't think so. But if I'm taxed higher for my labor, I might choose to go on welfare. With our preferential taxation treatment of money over labor, we aren't incenting people to work harder. As someone with a chunk of cash earning money for me, I see this as a nudge, wink situation for the affuent.

Just throwing it out here, but assuming that the "rich" spend more than the rest of us, does a tax on consumption make sense??

For example - I fly to Manchester for $60 on Southwest. Big Shot flies first class for $500 or takes his private jet for $1,500. If we have a consumption tax @ 20%, I pay $12, while Big Shot pays $100 or $300 in taxes. Or, I stay at Holiday Inn Express for $70 / nite, while Big Shot stays at the Ritz penthouse for $1,000 a nite. Taxes would be $7 as opposed to $200.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Just throwing it out here, but assuming that the "rich" spend more than the rest of us, does a tax on consumption make sense??

For example - I fly to Manchester for $60 on Southwest. Big Shot flies first class for $500 or takes his private jet for $1,500. If we have a consumption tax @ 20%, I pay $12, while Big Shot pays $100 or $300 in taxes. Or, I stay at Holiday Inn Express for $70 / nite, while Big Shot stays at the Ritz penthouse for $1,000 a nite. Taxes would be $7 as opposed to $200.

I don't have the numbers...but what I recall this benefits the afflluent also.

Someone earning $50k probably spends every dime on necessities. Some rich earn $1 million annually...how much of that can they possibly spend? As a percent, you may find affluent consumption and tax at about 10% yet lower middle income closer to 100% if they're living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[Plante26]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Just throwing it out here, but assuming that the "rich" spend more than the rest of us, does a tax on consumption make sense??

For example - I fly to Manchester for $60 on Southwest. Big Shot flies first class for $500 or takes his private jet for $1,500. If we have a consumption tax @ 20%, I pay $12, while Big Shot pays $100 or $300 in taxes. Or, I stay at Holiday Inn Express for $70 / nite, while Big Shot stays at the Ritz penthouse for $1,000 a nite. Taxes would be $7 as opposed to $200.

The predictable rebuttal will be that sales taxes are regressive. In Minnesota, however, food and clothing are tax-free.....leaving very few staples on which to pay sales taxes.

A flat tax on EVERYONE would be the most equitable. After all, shouldn't we all have some "skin in the game"?

There are numerous duplicative government agencies at the federal, state and local levels. These need to be merged and/or eliminated, saving billions of dollars.

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Just throwing it out here, but assuming that the "rich" spend more than the rest of us, does a tax on consumption make sense??

For example - I fly to Manchester for $60 on Southwest. Big Shot flies first class for $500 or takes his private jet for $1,500. If we have a consumption tax @ 20%, I pay $12, while Big Shot pays $100 or $300 in taxes. Or, I stay at Holiday Inn Express for $70 / nite, while Big Shot stays at the Ritz penthouse for $1,000 a nite. Taxes would be $7 as opposed to $200.

Depends on if you place a consumption tax on necessities. Provided that unprepared food and clothing under a certain threshold (say $100) is exempt, then it isn't completely terrible, the problem still comes from the fact that the wealthy are able to save a larger fraction of their income and would thus impact the middle class the most.

I really do think that income is the best way to determine who is extracting the most value from the current economy and thus an income tax is the most equitable way to determine what each person should pay.

Consumption taxes are going to fall hardest on the poor and middle class who have to spend the majority of their income as compared to a truly rich person.

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The predictable rebuttal will be that sales taxes are regressive. In Minnesota, however, food and clothing are tax-free.....leaving very few staples on which to pay sales taxes.

A flat tax on EVERYONE would be the most equitable. After all, shouldn't we all have some "skin in the game"?

There are numerous duplicative government agencies at the federal, state and local levels. These need to be merged and/or eliminated, saving billions of dollars.

Provided that people work, they have payroll taxes taken out of their paycheck and they do have skin in the game.

The federal system will result in duplicative government agencies at the multiple levels, no real way around that.

 

[Plante26]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Consumption taxes are going to fall hardest on the poor and middle class who have to spend the majority of their income as compared to a truly rich person.

The middle class does not HAVE to spend the majority of their income. They choose to. Hell, all but the poorest of the poor make decisions on where to spend their money. American society is rife with examples of bad fiscal policy, and none is more glaring than immediate gratification that is sought after by most middle class and "poor" Americans.

The poor in America have it better than the middle classes in many countries.

Provided that people work, they have payroll taxes taken out of their paycheck and they do have skin in the game.

The federal system will result in duplicative government agencies at the multiple levels, no real way around that.

Payroll taxes paid by the lowest earners will be returned many, many times over in retirement.

No representation without taxation.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The primary determining factor in differing outcomes isn't opportunity. It's talent, determination and work ethic.

Really? What color is the sky in your world? I know plenty of hardworking talented people that, due to lack of opportunity, pretty much have no shot at the same amount of success I do despite my working less hard and not be nearly as talented. (I just grew up in a better neighborhood and have relatives in places that can help me out)

See I live in the real world, not in some idealized fantasy-world that exists on TV and on paper. Opportunity is just as important as anything else.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Opportunity is just as important as anything else.

The great thing about America is you can rise, but the continuation of groups in poverty and ignorance for generation after generation is still a fact of life here as everywhere.

People like to jump to either pole: "there is NO mobility" or "there are NO problems." Both contentions are absurd. There is social mobility in the US, moreso than most places, although not as much as many developed countries, so there is lots of room for improvement. One way we've improved in the past is government action. Government can also be part of the problem, as when there is positive discrimination written into the law. Politics is where these things get played out in a democratic society. It will always be a tug of war, and that's good, it keep us from going too far in either direction.

People who see only "land of opportunity" or only the barriers to opportunity are each seeing only half the picture. This is a great place -- that's why we stay. It's not the best it can be -- that's why we work to improve it.

 

[Plante26]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Really? What color is the sky in your world? I know plenty of hardworking talented people that, due to lack of opportunity, pretty much have no shot at the same amount of success I do despite my working less hard and not be nearly as talented. (I just grew up in a better neighborhood and have relatives in places that can help me out)

See I live in the real world, not in some idealized fantasy-world that exists on TV and on paper. Opportunity is just as important as anything else.

Opportunities alone still aren't the primary determining factor. Maybe your friends should've made some different decisions going through life, because if they're truly talented and hardworking their services should be in high demand. But most likely, they are doing what they want to, where they want to with whom they want to.

As for your success: There are ALWAYS going to be cases where the talentless get ahead based solely on who they know. Those people usually end up in the middle management.

Government can also be part of the problem, as when there is positive discrimination written into the law.

Affirmative action, you say? How does this help poor white families break the cycle of welfare dependence?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

There are ALWAYS going to be cases where the talentless get ahead based solely on who they know.

Geez, leave the guy alone, he's retired.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Really? What color is the sky in your world? I know plenty of hardworking talented people that, due to lack of opportunity, pretty much have no shot at the same amount of success I do despite my working less hard and not be nearly as talented. (I just grew up in a better neighborhood and have relatives in places that can help me out)

See I live in the real world, not in some idealized fantasy-world that exists on TV and on paper. Opportunity is just as important as anything else.

Correct. I don't know what planet Plante26 lives on but it's not any planet that I've ever seen.

 

[Plante26]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Geez, leave the guy alone, he's retired.

You say this even though he's 100x more qualified than our current CIC.....who you seem to support. Ironic.

Does it make you feel angry that you were an affirmative action case, Kep?

 

[Plante26]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Correct. I don't know what planet Plante26 lives on but it's not any planet that I've ever seen.

If you don't think that the decisions a person makes are the key determining factor in the outcomes of their life, I can't help you--you've clearly wandered outside the bounds of assistance.

Good luck.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

You say this even though he's 100x more qualified than our current CIC.....who you seem to support. Ironic.

He is? That must be some planet.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If you don't think that the decisions a person makes are the key determining factor in the outcomes of their life, I can't help you--you've clearly wandered outside the bounds of assistance.

Good luck.

Not every decision one makes through life is either or. Many of them are well thought out and planned, rational, etc. and then in hindsight end up being the wrong one. You live in fantasyland, of that there is no question.