Team Canada and the NWHL

[pokechecker]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

so what are they going to do about the Clarkson Cup?

the players that won it, now play for a team that isn't likely to be allowed to compete for it, IOW, the Clarkson Cup will be a fraud if the NWHL Boston team isn't allowed to defend it, since they are the last ones to win it

this is reminiscent of back when the Whitecaps won it, the Canadians took their toys and wouldn't allow the US to play with them

 

[wpiguy]

Hockey Canada has never promoted the CWHL or had anything to do with it previously though. I think there are 2 things going on here. Firstly the CWHL is definitely protecting its interests by wanting to keep their star players, regardless of what country they are from. Secondly HC wants its best players playing in Canada not in the U.S. With the best American players. They'd rather a couple of their players play with the Blades who have no American star players, than with the Pride and all their nat team members. If there was an NWHL team in Canada where they could all play, that would be a different story. Just like all (except for a couple) the U.S. Players played for Boston in the CWHL

Ok let me see if I can explain this to people again. Hockey Canada and the Canadian Government fund the CWHL, further Hockey Canada provides monetory stipends to its Olympians in the off years so they can train. So there is nooooo waaaaayyy they are going to let their Olympianns play in a rival league.
I do like how the NWHL and the CWHL are staking out their turf. Good stuff.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

Ok let me see if I can explain this to people again. Hockey Canada and the Canadian Government fund the CWHL, further Hockey Canada provides monetory stipends to its Olympians in the off years so they can train. So there is nooooo waaaaayyy they are going to let their Olympianns play in a rival league.

why not?
then they wouldn't have to fund the individual players,
OK, so maybe that's it
they don't pay the players in the CWHL because then the cheap azz Canadians would have to give a few Loonies to Americans who played in their league


so let ME explain again, it only makes sense to Canadians
the NWHL, which a couple months ago didn't have a chance in hell of succeeding, assuming the rumors we have heard is true, now has a better chance of succeeding than the CWHL as a pro league
this is all NHL vs. WHA again, except the CWHL is hardly comparable to the NHL except in their treatment of players
back then, payers shut up and did what the coaches and owners said unless they wanted to be banished
and they played for peanuts

back then the NHL had a ban on European players, and for all intents and purposes, US players as well
only the Black Hawks had a few US players, and later Detroit

the WHA changed all this, forcing the robber barons who ran the NHL to end indentured servitude and accept European & American players

it certainly helped that these players handed Canadians their butts on a platter on occasion

it will all play out like this again with the women

 

[brookyone]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

Ok let me see if I can explain this to people again. Hockey Canada and the Canadian Government fund the CWHL, further Hockey Canada provides monetory stipends to its Olympians in the off years so they can train. So there is nooooo waaaaayyy they are going to let their Olympianns play in a rival league.
I do like how the NWHL and the CWHL are staking out their turf. Good stuff.

I'm not sure that was lost on anyone. Could be some are addressing...or contemplating the potential negative impact the policy has on the prospects for greater success of either / any women's pro hockey league...#spitballing.

Perhaps look beyond gold medals?

 

[ARM]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

Hockey Canada and the Canadian Government fund the CWHL, further Hockey Canada provides monetory stipends to its Olympians in the off years so they can train. So there is nooooo waaaaayyy they are going to let their Olympianns play in a rival league.

Why does Hockey Canada exist? To provide opportunities for hockey players. In a free society, that should be the end of it. The problem is that as soon as some people get a whiff of power, they like the idea of being able to boss people around and tell them they have to attend a meaningless camp that happens at an arbitrary time or play in a league that is poorly funded and run and may not exist in 12 months. So they start making decisions that in no way benefit the players, but are rather in the best interest of the bureaucrats in power. So you wind up with some players forced to miss a Frozen Four that they and their teammates worked all season to reach, and others get blacklisted from the national team landscape because at some point they chose not to attend a single camp. Those in power can always find a way to mix this into the Kool Aid in such a way that some are willing to drink it, but such decisions are harming the players, the very people that those in the organization exist to serve.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

Why does Hockey Canada exist?

you asked the wrong question, the question should be "why do the people of Canada, through their government, give money to Hockey Canada?"
to win gold medals
it is no different in the USA, which is the original reason for the existence of the Whitecaps, the government wouldn't fund it because to the general population, hockey is unimportant, women's hockey even less so.

From listening to what young players on both sides of the border say, their goal seems to be to make the Olympic team. But I wonder if that is just an acknowledgement of the reality that pro women’s hockey is a fantasy, their real goal would be to be a professional hockey player if that were a possibility.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

Why does Hockey Canada exist? To provide opportunities for hockey players. In a free society, that should be the end of it. The problem is that as soon as some people get a whiff of power, they like the idea of being able to boss people around and tell them they have to attend a meaningless camp that happens at an arbitrary time or play in a league that is poorly funded and run and may not exist in 12 months. So they start making decisions that in no way benefit the players, but are rather in the best interest of the bureaucrats in power. So you wind up with some players forced to miss a Frozen Four that they and their teammates worked all season to reach, and others get blacklisted from the national team landscape because at some point they chose not to attend a single camp. Those in power can always find a way to mix this into the Kool Aid in such a way that some are willing to drink it, but such decisions are harming the players, the very people that those in the organization exist to serve.

Extremely well said.

My experience with Team Canada is that stalwart integrity of character and the highest ideals, such as always honouring one's commitments and fulfilling one's obligations are critical to them...but, unfortunately, only insofar as those ideals apply to Team Canada. Even if there is a new "expectation" of you from Team Canada (regardless of how meaningless meeting that "expectation" would be in the long run and against the big picture) but fulfilling that "expectation" would necessarily mean that you have to renege on previously made important and long standing commitments to others, one's taking the high road and honouring those commitments necessarily causes Team Canada to "conclude" that you're not committed enough. (Translation: In that situation you have to show your willingness to "screw" others in order to show your subservience to Team Canada). Communication goes dark and the blacklisting is implied by the silence...which time bears out.

In other words, they are complete hypocrites.

If a player never finds herself in that position, then great.

However, if a player does find herself in that position Team Canada is wanting you to prostitute your principles as a show of your
"commitment" to them. How much respect can you have for people who think and live their lives that way?

With respect to principles my conclusion was... if Team Canada thinks that way...and they do, then screw Team Canada.

 

[wpiguy]

Extremely well said.

My experience with Team Canada is that stalwart integrity of character and the highest ideals, such as always honouring one's commitments and fulfilling one's obligations are critical to them...but, unfortunately, only insofar as those ideals apply to Team Canada. Even if there is a new "expectation" of you from Team Canada (regardless of how meaningless meeting that "expectation" would be in the long run and against the big picture) but fulfilling that "expectation" would necessarily mean that you have to renege on previously made important and long standing commitments to others, one's taking the high road and honouring those commitments necessarily causes Team Canada to "conclude" that you're not committed enough. (Translation: In that situation you have to show your willingness to "screw" others in order to show your subservience to Team Canada). Communication goes dark and the blacklisting is implied by the silence...which time bears out.

In other words, they are complete hypocrites.

If a player never finds herself in that position, then great.

However, if a player does find herself in that position Team Canada is wanting you to prostitute your principles as a show of your
"commitment" to them. How much respect can you have for people who think and live their lives that way?

With respect to principles my conclusion was... if Team Canada thinks that way...and they do, then screw Team Canada.

And yet we win Gold at the Olympics time after time...well not last time, your coaches just handed us over that one. But I think you get my point.
And how is it a foregone conclusion that the NWHL will survive and the CWHL will fold? Quite the contray, I think the opposite will happen. The NWHL won't last more than three years. I'd like to hear otherwise?

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

And how is it a foregone conclusion that the NWHL will survive and the CWHL will fold? Quite the contray, I think the opposite will happen. The NWHL won't last more than three years. I'd like to hear otherwise?

3 years?
you are optimistic
I never said " the NWHL will survive and the CWHL will fold"

the CWHL will last as long as the people of Canada want to fund it, which is likely a very long time

I was referring to both as being a pro league, which the CWHL is not now, nor likely will ever be without US players and teams because they need US fans & business to support it as a pro league, just like the NHL was and is dependent on the US (unless the players want to go back to being paid peanuts and being slaves)
I wouldn't hold my breathe waiting to be paid a salary in the CWHL, Canada will never pay US or European players, and if they start paying their own players (more), the US players will finally figure out they are getting screwed and go to the NWHL (those that already haven't figured it out)

although I suppose if the draconian employment laws regarding US citizen changes then I suppose it has a shot if they can find very good paying employment (good luck with that) to make up for not getting paid for hockey

 

[Rightnut]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

you asked the wrong question, the question should be "why do the people of Canada, through their government, give money to Hockey Canada?"
to win gold medals
it is no different in the USA, which is the original reason for the existence of the Whitecaps, the government wouldn't fund it because to the general population, hockey is unimportant, women's hockey even less so.

From listening to what young players on both sides of the border say, their goal seems to be to make the Olympic team. But I wonder if that is just an acknowledgement of the reality that pro women’s hockey is a fantasy, their real goal would be to be a professional hockey player if that were a possibility.

I think that for most, this is exactly true. To play professionally after all the blood, sweat and tears that they have spent through the years would be a dream come true and its a sad reality that to this point it hasn't been possible. Hopefully the NWHL can make that dream a possibility. Long shot but better than nothing.

 

[brookyone]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

*******<a href="http://imgur.com/7cv9gRm"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/7cv9gRm.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>********

 

[dolphinlover]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

A lot of good points here. But some not entirely accurate. The Canadian govt funds a lot of their Olympians, hockey Canada provides a stipend but a lot of their funding comes from donation based ventures such as Canfund etc. Hockey Canada doesn't financially support the CWHL as far as promotion and partnerships go. I think the CWHL will do fine without a U.S. Team or players. The only reason they put a team in Boston was so the US players would have a place to play as to not uproot their lives. The NWHL seems to have no intention to do the same. What incentive do Canadian players have to want to play in the NWHL? The pay right now inst enough for any of them to want to move. I would argue that the NWHL won't survive without a team in Canada. Just like the NHL would never survive without Canadian players. The CWHL will pay their players within a couple of years and they will pay Americans and Europeans. Ideally I would like to see one league with teams in both countries that pays their players more than peanuts and holds a proper draft. That's the goal they should be striving for.

 

[joecct]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

The other league posted this today

@CanadiensMTL: Montreal Stars reborn as Les Canadiennes de Montréal. DETAILS -> http://goha.bs/1QBmpMp http://twitter.com/CanadiensMTL/status/647161196152492032/photo/1

 

[west]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

Well the latest Fall Festival had several NWHL committed players invited so they haven't been completely forgotten.

Right now the CWHL has the benefit of having the high level athlete support systems close to the players (for the Canadian ones anyway). Calgary is a CWHL city for no other reason than it is where the national team is based and where numerous high level athletes make their home (and up until very recently was a really easy place to get a flexible job to boot). Montreal has the same base out East and is the more comfortable option for any athletes from Quebec. And Toronto is, well, Toronto (and Brampton is Toronto overflow). Lots of jobs, no shortage on support and repeated for importance, widest variety of jobs. There really is no reason for a player who is based in Calgary or Montreal moving to Buffalo or New York to be a 'professional' unless they had another reason for moving there. With that in mind, I can't see why Hockey Canada would put pressure on them not to go. Any player going to these teams was facing the risk of dropping off the radar anyway because they have an opportunity that takes them away from the traditional athlete support areas, which would mean not being able to keep up to the level they need. A player gets a job or schooling opportunity in New York or Connecticut? Well now they can keep playing hockey at a high level even if it isn't in the preferred league of Hockey Canada. It only helps them out.

While the end game of the CWHL has been to be professional, they have a lot of pretty savvy hockey and business people involved who seem to agree that it just isn't in the cards yet. This goes beyond NHL team support, sponsors and the like. So when you see a league come onto the scene promising to pay players with a business model that requires 100% capacity at all games simply to meet players salaries it is pretty understandable that people would be skeptical. The CWHL route is long but is the safer way to go about things. The NWHL way is definitely swinging for the fences and what a swing it is. Luckily for most of the players it's a rather low risk move (I mean what would be the worst case for some of them? They go from not getting paid to not getting paid?) so it should help everything move along regardless.

 

[EastFan1]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

This goes beyond NHL team support, sponsors and the like. So when you see a league come onto the scene promising to pay players with a business model that requires 100% capacity at all games simply to meet players salaries it is pretty understandable that people would be skeptical. The CWHL route is long but is the safer way to go about things. The NWHL way is definitely swinging for the fences and what a swing it is. Luckily for most of the players it's a rather low risk move (I mean what would be the worst case for some of them? They go from not getting paid to not getting paid?) so it should help everything move along regardless.

The business model is based on donations not the gate from 20 or so games.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

Well the latest Fall Festival had several NWHL committed players invited so they haven't been completely forgotten.

Right now the CWHL has the benefit of having the high level athlete support systems close to the players (for the Canadian ones anyway). Calgary is a CWHL city for no other reason than it is where the national team is based and where numerous high level athletes make their home (and up until very recently was a really easy place to get a flexible job to boot). Montreal has the same base out East and is the more comfortable option for any athletes from Quebec. And Toronto is, well, Toronto (and Brampton is Toronto overflow). Lots of jobs, no shortage on support and repeated for importance, widest variety of jobs. There really is no reason for a player who is based in Calgary or Montreal moving to Buffalo or New York to be a 'professional' unless they had another reason for moving there. With that in mind, I can't see why Hockey Canada would put pressure on them not to go. Any player going to these teams was facing the risk of dropping off the radar anyway because they have an opportunity that takes them away from the traditional athlete support areas, which would mean not being able to keep up to the level they need. A player gets a job or schooling opportunity in New York or Connecticut? Well now they can keep playing hockey at a high level even if it isn't in the preferred league of Hockey Canada. It only helps them out.

While the end game of the CWHL has been to be professional, they have a lot of pretty savvy hockey and business people involved who seem to agree that it just isn't in the cards yet. This goes beyond NHL team support, sponsors and the like. So when you see a league come onto the scene promising to pay players with a business model that requires 100% capacity at all games simply to meet players salaries it is pretty understandable that people would be skeptical. The CWHL route is long but is the safer way to go about things. The NWHL way is definitely swinging for the fences and what a swing it is. Luckily for most of the players it's a rather low risk move (I mean what would be the worst case for some of them? They go from not getting paid to not getting paid?) so it should help everything move along regardless.

safer for whom?

at the rate attendance is increasing in the CWHL, the US women can expect to be grandmothers before they get paid, it is a slow boat to China. Basically those running the CWHL are reducing all risk to themselves at the players expense.
Sure the NWHL is swinging for the fence, why would you do anything else? Nothing gambled, nothing gained.
basically what we are seeing in the CWHL/NWHL is the difference between Canada & the US

and yes the Canadians have a lot of savvy hockey people, but the NWHL has a team in NY, home of Madison Avenue
savvy hockey people might be important if your goal is to win a hockey game, but if it's to develop and succeed at a pro league
advantage NWHL
although it sounds like those in charge are as Utopian as the Canadians, if not more so

 

[west]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

The business model is based on donations not the gate from 20 or so games.

So it's a charity business model?

 

[west]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

safer for whom?

at the rate attendance is increasing in the CWHL, the US women can expect to be grandmothers before they get paid, it is a slow boat to China. Basically those running the CWHL are reducing all risk to themselves at the players expense.
Sure the NWHL is swinging for the fence, why would you do anything else? Nothing gambled, nothing gained.

Because then you risk losing the brand, stability, sponsors and trust in your product which can take many years to earn back.

The WUSA swung for the fences and what was the result? Nine figures of debt, lack of faith from broadcasters and just over a decade later a third iteration of a women's soccer pro league is back to requiring subsidization from three federations to pay player salaries which are considerably less than they were in the dream world of 2003. 12 years later and women's professional soccer in North America has only just climbed back to being able to field as many teams with an overall operating budget less than a fifth of the original iteration that "swung for the fences." To put it in perspective, the NWHL salary cap is higher than the NWSL. Women's soccer is much more popular in the US than women's hockey. It has more history. The national federations rather than the teams themselves pay the salaries of their national team players. Many teams have affiliation with an MLS counterpart. And despite that only two teams operate in the black.

Damage can be done to the brand and the product going about it this way. Either the NWHL is playing with somebody else's money (i.e. the banks) which means you're at risk of losing the NWHL as a brand, which isn't good because it is one people identify with and will affect future iterations of a women's professional league, making it harder to secure creditors, sponsors, etc. Starting over again and again makes it extremely difficult to actually grow a base of support. Or it is with the promise of money from fans, which means that if they don't pony up, the players are effectively on the hook anyway, meaning it isn't any different than how the CWHL operates.

So why don't you swing for the fences? Because missing likely means that in ten years you're further back than where you started.

basically what we are seeing in the CWHL/NWHL is the difference between Canada & the US

I'd say it's more like the NHL and WHA. Or the NFL and USFL. Or the NBA and the ABA. Sometime leagues want to make a splash, sometimes it works, a lot of the time it doesn't.

and yes the Canadians have a lot of savvy hockey people, but the NWHL has a team in NY, home of Madison Avenue
savvy hockey people might be important if your goal is to win a hockey game, but if it's to develop and succeed at a pro league
advantage NWHL

So you're saying people like Brian Burke on your board, or connections with MLSE and the Montreal Canadiens (Yonge St. and Rue Ste. Catharine are a better than Madison Avenue when it comes to making business out of hockey, no?) doesn't give you more insight on what it takes to succeed at a professional hockey league? What exactly is the NWHL's advantage in this case? If the NHL wants to prop up the league like the NBA does with the WNBA, then there might be something. But seeing how individual NHL teams are supporting individual CWHL teams (and maybe NWHL teams going forward), it doesn't look like it is on the league's radar anytime soon.

Again, saying you're a pro league is the easiest part of being one. To bring it back to topic, Hockey Canada might be discouraging players from actively seeking this league out for no other reason than they don't trust it's success and feel leaving their realm of control is worse for them, but so far haven't shunned any players that have gone to it because as I mentioned, they were going to be out of that sphere of influence and support anyway.

 

[EastFan1]

Re: Team Canada and the NWHL

So it's a charity business model?

The league has been clear it's based upon donations. Identical to the WNBA 20 years ago but with smaller operating expenses and losses.

I'm not sure any of the major sponsors have been identified.