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Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

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Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Oh good lord. Where do you find this shiat? I'm supposed to listen to Bill Bonner, a guy who apparently has no actual economics training listed anywhere in his own biography? A guy whose top book review is:
“For better or for worse, my entire education in economics comes via Bill Bonner,” – Jenna O., World News Desk, Collapsenet.com, World Trade Center Environmental Organization

Yeah...some one needs to put the tinfoil back on.
Did you even read the article? Bonner's only the messenger boy. The message itself came from Barofksy, who is a democrat by the way.
 
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Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

How the heck are they going to enact a mileage tax without sticking a gizmo in the car to report the mileage to The Man??

The only way I can picture such a tax working without some kind of tracking gadget, is if they bundle it into annual vehicle registration fees at a graduated flat rate based on the body type and an estimated average annual mileage across all electric/hybrid owners of that body type. So you'd have a high rate for the all-electrics and the super-efficient subcompact hybrids like the Prius, a middle rate for hybrid sedans like the Camry and Fusion, and the lowest rate for hybrid SUVs like the Escape that still suck down a fair amount of gas.

In short, it's a mess. :)
 
Did you even read the article? Bonner's only the messenger boy. The message itself came from Barofksy, who is a democrat by the way.

Yeah, and that sounded totally legit too. Especially with the conspiracy theory ad right underneath it.
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

How the heck are they going to enact a mileage tax without sticking a gizmo in the car to report the mileage to The Man??
Require owners of such vehicles to track their odometer readings when filing their annual income taxes. Or, if the state requires annual safety and emissions inspections, they could take the readings there, too, and then send the owners a bill.
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Require owners of such vehicles to track their odometer readings when filing their annual income taxes. Or, if the state requires annual safety and emissions inspections, they could take the readings there, too, and then send the owners a bill.

Or include it in the price of the inspection.
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Require owners of such vehicles to track their odometer readings when filing their annual income taxes. Or, if the state requires annual safety and emissions inspections, they could take the readings there, too, and then send the owners a bill.
Under (a), can I lie and get away with it??

(b) may work better
 
Require owners of such vehicles to track their odometer readings when filing their annual income taxes. Or, if the state requires annual safety and emissions inspections, they could take the readings there, too, and then send the owners a bill.

Why are trying to legitimize mileage based tax? Gas tax should be enough of a proxy and it matches against gas utility which is a decent proxy for the weight.

I'd say more... But really, why do we have to come up w so many ways to measure a person. The gains on it becomes limited. The only purpose of new tax mechanism is to extract taxes against a resistant public by claiming that its a moral and fair means. That's how you work over a new initiative as opposed to an increase in existing taxes.
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Under (a), can I lie and get away with it??

(b) may work better
With (a) you could lie up until the time you sold the vehicle. Not all states require annual inspections, so they would require some other method of collecting the tax or validation. The problem is, when you do sell, because everyone sells their non-collector vehicles eventually, and if you're under reporting your mileage from year to year, you'll get slammed the year you sell it.

Why are trying to legitimize mileage based tax? Gas tax should be enough of a proxy and it matches against gas utility which is a decent proxy for the weight.

I'd say more... But really, why do we have to come up w so many ways to measure a person. The gains on it becomes limited. The only purpose of new tax mechanism is to extract taxes against a resistant public by claiming that its a moral and fair means. That's how you work over a new initiative as opposed to an increase in existing taxes.
The states are looking for methods to collect a road-use tax on electric vehicle owners because they're not paying gas taxes. If you own a car with a combustion engine, the tax would not apply because you're already paying the gasoline use tax. And according to that site, these EV owners "want to pay their fair share." Given the known trends of people owning those vehicles, I believe that site's statement on such a matter to be more true than false.
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Why are trying to legitimize mileage based tax? Gas tax should be enough of a proxy and it matches against gas utility which is a decent proxy for the weight.

I'd say more... But really, why do we have to come up w so many ways to measure a person. The gains on it becomes limited. The only purpose of new tax mechanism is to extract taxes against a resistant public by claiming that its a moral and fair means. That's how you work over a new initiative as opposed to an increase in existing taxes.

The reason that governments are trying to get around the fuel tax is because since hippi- er people started buying hybrids, the governments have been losing money on fuel consumption taxes because people just haven't been buying fuel. Some have chosen to add a tax when a hybrid is registered, while others are piloting this mileage tax.
 
Watch the Vampire State do both. :eek:

"Vampire State" - heh, that's pretty funny actually. Kudos.

Regarding the gas tax, it is true that people are using a lot less gas. Given that fact, instead of taxing mileage or something else unworkable like that, I would just link the gas tax to transportation funding. So, that massive highway bill they do every so often? Paid for entirely by whatever the gas tax can fund. Obviously you'd make an exception for safety issues (security, critical repairs, etc) but if you start linking specific sources of funding to some of these bills it takes a lot of the mystery out of what your tax dollars are going to.
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

"Vampire State" - heh, that's pretty funny actually. Kudos.

Regarding the gas tax, it is true that people are using a lot less gas. Given that fact, instead of taxing mileage or something else unworkable like that, I would just link the gas tax to transportation funding. So, that massive highway bill they do every so often? Paid for entirely by whatever the gas tax can fund. Obviously you'd make an exception for safety issues (security, critical repairs, etc) but if you start linking specific sources of funding to some of these bills it takes a lot of the mystery out of what your tax dollars are going to.

When you live in a state like this for nearly 27 years, you start to get irritated by it. ;) Oh well, like I always say, you can either complain, or find a way to make the most of the situation. Maybe I should brew beer as a entrepreneurship; it's tax exempt. ;)

Critical repairs are in fact part of the highway funding, so why should we make special exception to something that already exists? Unless you're talking about going in the red and taking from other areas, in which case why not create rainy day funds (which, quite frankly, would help to eliminate a lot of pork spending that is done)? One thing that I've thought would be a decent idea is to create toll roads (or even toll zones in the case of municipalities) and then eliminate the need for state/federal gas taxes, because then you truly are paying for the roads where you drive. When it comes to enforcement, tie it to registration, just like how out-of-state tickets work (at least in NYS, there is no reporting to DMV or insurance if you are convicted of a moving violation unless you don't pay the fine, minus a couple of exceptions), or connect it up to the E-ZPass system. The technology is available to do high speed collection including license plate recognition, and for those worried about its use, pass laws like NYS has to make it unavailable as court evidence for other charges.
 
When you live in a state like this for nearly 27 years, you start to get irritated by it. ;) Oh well, like I always say, you can either complain, or find a way to make the most of the situation. Maybe I should brew beer as a entrepreneurship; it's tax exempt. ;)

Critical repairs are in fact part of the highway funding, so why should we make special exception to something that already exists? Unless you're talking about going in the red and taking from other areas, in which case why not create rainy day funds (which, quite frankly, would help to eliminate a lot of pork spending that is done)? One thing that I've thought would be a decent idea is to create toll roads (or even toll zones in the case of municipalities) and then eliminate the need for state/federal gas taxes, because then you truly are paying for the roads where you drive. When it comes to enforcement, tie it to registration, just like how out-of-state tickets work (at least in NYS, there is no reporting to DMV or insurance if you are convicted of a moving violation unless you don't pay the fine, minus a couple of exceptions), or connect it up to the E-ZPass system. The technology is available to do high speed collection including license plate recognition, and for those worried about its use, pass laws like NYS has to make it unavailable as court evidence for other charges.

Too Big Brother for my tastes. I'm trying to balance funding mechanisms with some sort of privacy. Its the same reason why I think cameras at intersections for the purposes of handing out tickets should be illegal.

I'd except critical repairs, as in this bridge on the interstate linking major city X with major city Y was discovered to be in imminent danger of collapse. Or if you recall a few years back a truck fire took out an overpass on 95 in CT for the main highway that feeds NYC. I also remember a offshore rig coming lose and hitting a bridge in Mobile during a storm. On these issues I'd just do the repairs quickly and allocate the funding immediately.
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

Too Big Brother for my tastes. I'm trying to balance funding mechanisms with some sort of privacy. Its the same reason why I think cameras at intersections for the purposes of handing out tickets should be illegal.

I'd except critical repairs, as in this bridge on the interstate linking major city X with major city Y was discovered to be in imminent danger of collapse. Or if you recall a few years back a truck fire took out an overpass on 95 in CT for the main highway that feeds NYC. I also remember a offshore rig coming lose and hitting a bridge in Mobile during a storm. On these issues I'd just do the repairs quickly and allocate the funding immediately.

I'm well aware of emergency repairs. I can also tell you're an east coaster, since you didn't mention 35W. ;)

I know we're all worried about Big Brother. Heck, I'm in the same boat as you when it comes to red light cameras. If one idea doesn't work, perhaps we change it up a bit. There was a suggestion of mileage tax and have it be tied to inspection. Here's one issue I have always seen with mileage taxes, though: Why is NYS getting money for my driving time in PA, VT, or any other state for that matter? Granted, you could make the same argument when it comes to state fuel taxes, as I would commonly fill up in another state because it was cheaper. How would you handle those situations, aside from the hard-to-enforce sales and use tax?
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

It's not just the hybrids and electrics. Those vehicles still comprise a small percentage of the vehicles on the road each and every day.

Far fewer people drive lumbering, gas-guzzling SUVs and big trucks today. The current crop of compact and midsize sedans are more fuel efficient than they have been at any time in the past. Even the recent SUVs and trucks use less gas than their counterparts from 10-15 years ago.

Drivers as a whole are using less gas thanks to an industry commitment to efficiency, and consumer economic choices about where and when to drive. Hence, the decline in gas tax revenues.
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

It's not just the hybrids and electrics. Those vehicles still comprise a small percentage of the vehicles on the road each and every day.

Far fewer people drive lumbering, gas-guzzling SUVs and big trucks today. The current crop of compact and midsize sedans are more fuel efficient than they have been at any time in the past. Even the recent SUVs and trucks use less gas than their counterparts from 10-15 years ago.

Drivers as a whole are using less gas thanks to an industry commitment to efficiency, and consumer economic choices about where and when to drive. Hence, the decline in gas tax revenues.

It's actually not the first time we saw it. Cars became lighter and more fuel efficient between 1975 and 1983. Once the OPEC embargo was over, demand for heavier cars started again.
 
It's not just the hybrids and electrics. Those vehicles still comprise a small percentage of the vehicles on the road each and every day.

Far fewer people drive lumbering, gas-guzzling SUVs and big trucks today. The current crop of compact and midsize sedans are more fuel efficient than they have been at any time in the past. Even the recent SUVs and trucks use less gas than their counterparts from 10-15 years ago.

Drivers as a whole are using less gas thanks to an industry commitment to efficiency, and consumer economic choices about where and when to drive. Hence, the decline in gas tax revenues.

The gas tax is also not indexed for inflation.
 
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread

The gas tax is also not indexed for inflation.

True - was last increased in 1993, to the current 18.4 cents/gal. If it were indexed to inflation, the tax would've been about 30 cents/gal in 2012.
 
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