FlagDUDE08
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Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
I believe Reykjavik is heated entirely as such.
I believe Reykjavik is heated entirely as such.
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Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
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Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
Yes, physics does limit technology - to 100% efficiency. Let me know when a patent for a solar powered perpetual motion machine is granted, and then I'll be happy to jump on the bandwagon.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
So you're saying that there is more daylight in the west and south in one year than there is anywhere else in the world? Think before you respond. If you want to explain something to me, I am perfectly willing to listen, but you need to make sure you're being logical. I'm willing to accept the concept of technological advancement, but I believe I have hit upon something that is a physical and logical road block.
So you're saying that there is more daylight in the west and south in one year than there is anywhere else in the world? Think before you respond. If you want to explain something to me, I am perfectly willing to listen, but you need to make sure you're being logical. I'm willing to accept the concept of technological advancement, but I believe I have hit upon something that is a physical and logical road block.
unofan
Well-known member
Logical road blocks? Now you know how I feel in economic threads. ;-)
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
I'm too lazy to research it, but logic would tell me that there are more days of clear skies in SoCal, Arizona and New Mexico than there are up here in Wisconsin.
By that logic, there would be more daylight in those places in a given year than say, Washington state.
I'm too lazy to research it, but logic would tell me that there are more days of clear skies in SoCal, Arizona and New Mexico than there are up here in Wisconsin.
By that logic, there would be more daylight in those places in a given year than say, Washington state.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
How much daylight is there at midnight in SoCal on December 21st? How much daylight is there at midnight in Wisconsin on December 21st?
Perhaps that better explains my point.
How much daylight is there at midnight in SoCal on December 21st? How much daylight is there at midnight in Wisconsin on December 21st?
Perhaps that better explains my point.
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
Can't speak for everyone, but I would be much happier paying more money for solar generated energy than foreign oil produced energy. Obviously this is a matter of degrees, but to keep the money and jobs away from overseas despots is a worthwhile use of my money IMHO.
Regarding energy generation, so-called renewables or clean energy need to be seen in a context beyond the pure costs of generation(pause a minute while people's heads explode). While I happen to be a big fan of fracking, I can't entirely dismiss the environmental impact. Same with nuclear and even hydro. Wind, solar and thermo are free and to my knowledge have very little negative impact. Its essentually the same tradeoff as using natural gas instead of coal. Coal may be cheaper, but who wants to go back to the days of smog and acid rain?
There's also the consideration of the energy supply chain. Natural gas supplies an ever increasing % of our energy needs, but what happens if we switch trucks, busses and trains over to natural gas (really the only way to get off of foreign oil)? That's going to strain the supply leaving less for energy generation. A Middle East crisis might shut off cheaper oil supplies. For all these reasons, it makes sense to spend money on a domestic source of energy to step in if needed. Another OPEC inspired crisis would cost far more money than setting up a wind and solar infrastructure especially in areas of the country (the Southwestern desert for solar, East coast for wind) where it makes sense to build.
Can't speak for everyone, but I would be much happier paying more money for solar generated energy than foreign oil produced energy. Obviously this is a matter of degrees, but to keep the money and jobs away from overseas despots is a worthwhile use of my money IMHO.
Regarding energy generation, so-called renewables or clean energy need to be seen in a context beyond the pure costs of generation(pause a minute while people's heads explode). While I happen to be a big fan of fracking, I can't entirely dismiss the environmental impact. Same with nuclear and even hydro. Wind, solar and thermo are free and to my knowledge have very little negative impact. Its essentually the same tradeoff as using natural gas instead of coal. Coal may be cheaper, but who wants to go back to the days of smog and acid rain?
There's also the consideration of the energy supply chain. Natural gas supplies an ever increasing % of our energy needs, but what happens if we switch trucks, busses and trains over to natural gas (really the only way to get off of foreign oil)? That's going to strain the supply leaving less for energy generation. A Middle East crisis might shut off cheaper oil supplies. For all these reasons, it makes sense to spend money on a domestic source of energy to step in if needed. Another OPEC inspired crisis would cost far more money than setting up a wind and solar infrastructure especially in areas of the country (the Southwestern desert for solar, East coast for wind) where it makes sense to build.
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
Actually, since SoCal is closer to the equator (tilt of the Earth matters!), Sunrise in LA today was at 6:49am and sunset will be at 4:44pm.
Madison, WI had a sunrise at 7:20am and will have a sunset at 4:22pm.
That's almost a full hour more of daylight and couple that with more sunny days overall and it's true to say that the southwest has more daylight than the midwest.
Perhaps that better explains MY point.
PS It's completely cloudy here today and seems to be just about every day this time of year.
Actually, since SoCal is closer to the equator (tilt of the Earth matters!), Sunrise in LA today was at 6:49am and sunset will be at 4:44pm.
Madison, WI had a sunrise at 7:20am and will have a sunset at 4:22pm.
That's almost a full hour more of daylight and couple that with more sunny days overall and it's true to say that the southwest has more daylight than the midwest.
Perhaps that better explains MY point.
PS It's completely cloudy here today and seems to be just about every day this time of year.
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unofan
Well-known member
He probably meant june 21. over the course of a year, the sun should be overhead equal amounts. But either way, he's ignoring weather patterns as afactor and focusing solely on astrophysics.
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
True, in the summer it would/should be reversed, but if it's measured by amount of full sun, gotta think the southwest would be the brightest at least in this country.
True, in the summer it would/should be reversed, but if it's measured by amount of full sun, gotta think the southwest would be the brightest at least in this country.
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
That's all you need to know? We have a new convert! Land required for solar is the same as for coal. And that's even if technological progress comes to a screeching halt.
http://grist.org/article/2010-11-17-which-has-bigger-footprint-coal-plant-or-solar-farm/
That's all you need to know? We have a new convert! Land required for solar is the same as for coal. And that's even if technological progress comes to a screeching halt.
http://grist.org/article/2010-11-17-which-has-bigger-footprint-coal-plant-or-solar-farm/
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
You're either missing my point, or avoiding it because you know the answer doesn't fit with what you're trying to sell. I did not ask about the time of sunrise and the time of sunset, I asked about the specific time in question and how much sunlight there is.
However, let's work through your point. You said the sun sets in LA at 4:44 PM. Let's now say that the Lakers are scheduled to play a basketball game in LA at 8:00 PM. If you're using solar power, how do you power the arena so there are lights shining and the game is able to be played?
However, if you'd like to consider the effects of the time of sunrise and sunset, let's take it for an entire year. How many minutes of total sunlight in a year do you have? How many minutes are in a year? (the song "Seasons of Love" from "Rent" will help you with the answer to the last question)
You're either missing my point, or avoiding it because you know the answer doesn't fit with what you're trying to sell. I did not ask about the time of sunrise and the time of sunset, I asked about the specific time in question and how much sunlight there is.
However, let's work through your point. You said the sun sets in LA at 4:44 PM. Let's now say that the Lakers are scheduled to play a basketball game in LA at 8:00 PM. If you're using solar power, how do you power the arena so there are lights shining and the game is able to be played?
However, if you'd like to consider the effects of the time of sunrise and sunset, let's take it for an entire year. How many minutes of total sunlight in a year do you have? How many minutes are in a year? (the song "Seasons of Love" from "Rent" will help you with the answer to the last question)
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
My understanding of solar power is that the sun doesn't actually have to be up to utilize it. It can be stored, can't it?
Otherwise how do those solar powered street signs still work at night?
Come to think of it, my yard/garden lights are solar powered. They charge during the day and shine all night.
Your example seems flawed.
What exactly am I "trying to sell?" I'm not a solar power proponent. I'm not against it, but I'm not here saying that everything should be converted either.
Study it and if it can work efficiently, use it. Otherwise, move on.
Just saying, that in a given year, there is probably more usable and powerful daylight in the southwest than other parts of the country. You seemed to think that wasn't the case. Either that or you thought that the sun had to be shining to use solar power. In each case, you are most likely wrong.
No surprise there.
My understanding of solar power is that the sun doesn't actually have to be up to utilize it. It can be stored, can't it?
Otherwise how do those solar powered street signs still work at night?
Come to think of it, my yard/garden lights are solar powered. They charge during the day and shine all night.
Your example seems flawed.
What exactly am I "trying to sell?" I'm not a solar power proponent. I'm not against it, but I'm not here saying that everything should be converted either.
Study it and if it can work efficiently, use it. Otherwise, move on.
Just saying, that in a given year, there is probably more usable and powerful daylight in the southwest than other parts of the country. You seemed to think that wasn't the case. Either that or you thought that the sun had to be shining to use solar power. In each case, you are most likely wrong.
No surprise there.
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My understanding of solar power is that the sun doesn't actually have to be up to utilize it. It can be stored, can't it?
Otherwise how do those solar powered street signs still work at night?
Come to think of it, my yard/garden lights are solar powered. They charge during the day and shine all night.
Your example seems flawed.
What exactly am I "trying to sell?" I'm not a solar power proponent. I'm not against it, but I'm not here saying that everything should be converted either.
Study it and if it can work efficiently, use it. Otherwise, move on.
Just saying, that in a given year, there is probably more usable and powerful daylight in the southwest than other parts of the country. You seemed to think that wasn't the case. Either that or you thought that the sun had to be shining to use solar power. In each case, you are most likely wrong.
No surprise there.
You didn't realize that people with solar powered houses freeze their @ sses off in the winter because they have no electricity to heat their houses overnight? What's wrong with you?!?
Of course, they don't mention that when selling you the product.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
Batteries, use any excess solar produced electricity to charge batteries during the day so that you have energy at night.
No reason that solar power can't supply a significant majority of our electricity demand (not our total energy demand) if we decide to install the infrastructure and change from centrally produced energy to a much more decentralized collection of small producers. (Yes, I understand the massive surface area required, Lynahfan, that alone does not mean that we can't eventually install a sufficient level of panels, just that it isn't going to be done anytime in the next 10 or 15 years even if we started today.)
Batteries, use any excess solar produced electricity to charge batteries during the day so that you have energy at night.
No reason that solar power can't supply a significant majority of our electricity demand (not our total energy demand) if we decide to install the infrastructure and change from centrally produced energy to a much more decentralized collection of small producers. (Yes, I understand the massive surface area required, Lynahfan, that alone does not mean that we can't eventually install a sufficient level of panels, just that it isn't going to be done anytime in the next 10 or 15 years even if we started today.)
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
Here's the issue, though: You must be able to generate TWICE the electricity that you normally would in order to meet the demand. Sure, you could look to store energy through a battery, however you're also needing to provide power during the day. Here's a catch-22 with that: How do you know you're going to store up enough power for the evening without running out? You're still depending on fossil fuels in the case of evening redundancy. Therefore, you're doubling your cost because you think your vapour-excreting fossil fuel plant will cause global warming. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Here's the issue, though: You must be able to generate TWICE the electricity that you normally would in order to meet the demand. Sure, you could look to store energy through a battery, however you're also needing to provide power during the day. Here's a catch-22 with that: How do you know you're going to store up enough power for the evening without running out? You're still depending on fossil fuels in the case of evening redundancy. Therefore, you're doubling your cost because you think your vapour-excreting fossil fuel plant will cause global warming. That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
Nor does your assertion that because the Lakers game is after dark that solar power couldn't be utilized.
Nor does your assertion that because the Lakers game is after dark that solar power couldn't be utilized.
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Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
There definitely is. This link that I provided before allows you to plot a chart with the total average solar radiation for the US for various types of collectors: horizontal plates, tilted plates, North-South tilt tracking, etc. In the conUS, the value for an optimally-tilted fixed plate varies from 3-4 KWh/m2/day (Seattle) to 7-8 KWh/m2/day in the southwest.
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
There's a huge difference between going in once and grabbing coal (which is easily stored and transported) vs. having to maintain a huge surface are for solar collection on a continuous basis. The issue isn't USING the land - the issue is maintaining and cleaning the collectors which COVER the land.
That "study" is nonsense. 89% of Appalachian mountaintops aren't economically developed after mining? What % are economically developed without mining???
There's a huge difference between going in once and grabbing coal (which is easily stored and transported) vs. having to maintain a huge surface are for solar collection on a continuous basis. The issue isn't USING the land - the issue is maintaining and cleaning the collectors which COVER the land.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Strands in the Tapestry: the Business, Economics, and Tax Policy Thread
Not to mention, I hear all this talk about batteries... I'd love to hear some take on the efficiency of those things. I can't wait to see the replacement cost on those things after they lose their charging ability. Not to mention, if one runs out, that's it; you can't charge it up again at all.
Not to mention, I hear all this talk about batteries... I'd love to hear some take on the efficiency of those things. I can't wait to see the replacement cost on those things after they lose their charging ability. Not to mention, if one runs out, that's it; you can't charge it up again at all.
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