Should good teams schedule more good nonconference opponents?

[TitleIXHockey]

Even if we accept the absurd notion that neutral site games "don't count" and home games "don't count" as "good nonconference opponents", the 2016-17 Syracuse team was over .500 and 14-4-2 in conference. That they weren't as good the next year when Wisconsin travelled there is hardly Mark Johnson's fault; he booked an above-500 'east' team. So that's a fifth series. After you take out the neutral site games, and the LIU and Lindenwood trips to help bolster new programs, how many opportunities did they have for such east coast trips, anyway?

Is "66" the entirety of their non-conference scheduling? Because, again, if you are discounting the neutral site gams as "good", they shouldn't be part of the total you cite, either way. And again, the title of the post does not specify only road, it just says "good nonconference opponents".

(And let's also point out that what you're asking in wanting UW to come east instead of staying home is giving up two dates of 2000 tickets sold per game to pack everyone onto a private jet to fly east to play in front of, what?, 200 people per date? That costs money.)

I think your premise is absurd, and I think UW's record under that absurd premise is actually pretty good.

Neutral site games are different than road games both in terms of degree of difficulty and streaming options. And to be clear it's not about replacing home dates with road dates, it's scheduling better opponents for those nonconf road dates.

Yes, 66 was the entirety of nonconf opponents I counted in that time, not including NCAA games. Semantics aside, the point that Wisconsin seems to avoid playing road games against good nonconf opponents seems valid. If you were expecting something approaching a regular distribution, you'd expect 25% each of home/road games against good/bad opponents. You could say that maybe Wisconsin (or any WCHA team) is going to stay home 60% or 70% of the time due to travel costs you'd be at around 15% or 20%, which Wisconsin only sort of gets close to.

You could also say that as a large university that sells well, maybe Wisconsin isn't beholden to travel limitations as much as some of the other WCHA schools.

It'll be interesting to see if Johnson does indeed believe that iron sharpens iron or if Wisconsin slips back into traveling to play road games against RPI (11-12), Lindenwood only (12-13), no one (13-14, 15-16), UNH (14-15), Clarkson??? What are you doing here (16-17), Syracuse (17-18), Cornell??? Two in one season? Surely this must be a mistake (17-18), Mercyhurst (18-19, Mercyhurst is still a 30 win team, right?), LIU (19-20)

Actually, huh, I guess it has gotten a bit better in the last 5 years.

 

[TitleIXHockey]

Clarkson??? What are you doing here (16-17), Cornell??? Two in one season? Surely this must be a mistake (17-18)

I think they were going for Brown and Dartmouth but the scheduler misclicked on the dropdown menu.

 

[Lindsay]

To your first point, that's the difference in neutral site tournament games (which Wisconsin has played a bunch of) and road games. For away games at a specific school the streaming is almost always reliable and known in advance. Tournaments tend to be all over the map (though if the host is an NCAA WHockey school, their streaming service is a safe bet).

SLU had a mix up where the Penn State UMD game they hosted in the fall was not streamed in America.

 

[robertearle]

Neutral site games are different than road games both in terms of degree of difficulty and streaming options. And to be clear it's not about replacing home dates with road dates, it's scheduling better opponents for those nonconf road dates.

Yes, 66 was the entirety of nonconf opponents I counted in that time, not including NCAA games. Semantics aside, the point that Wisconsin seems to avoid playing road games against good nonconf opponents seems valid. If you were expecting something approaching a regular distribution, you'd expect 25% each of home/road games against good/bad opponents. You could say that maybe Wisconsin (or any WCHA team) is going to stay home 60% or 70% of the time due to travel costs you'd be at around 15% or 20%, which Wisconsin only sort of gets close to.

You could also say that as a large university that sells well, maybe Wisconsin isn't beholden to travel limitations as much as some of the other WCHA schools.

It'll be interesting to see if Johnson does indeed believe that iron sharpens iron or if Wisconsin slips back into traveling to play road games against RPI (11-12), Lindenwood only (12-13), no one (13-14, 15-16), UNH (14-15), Clarkson??? What are you doing here (16-17), Syracuse (17-18), Cornell??? Two in one season? Surely this must be a mistake (17-18), Mercyhurst (18-19, Mercyhurst is still a 30 win team, right?), LIU (19-20)

Actually, huh, I guess it has gotten a bit better in the last 5 years.

Your premise is absurd, and your 'methodology' as to what 'counts' and doesn't 'count' is ridiculous.

 

[Reddington]

Same as college basketball - a coach and program is measured by 20 win seasons. The same applies to college hockey. When you hit that number the administration is happy. Now whether stacking your record with creampuffs helps you come tournament time whether in conference or in the dance is a different question. I think most coaches are comfortable with the 20 wins whether it has creampuffs or not because that is job security for the coach.

 

[robertearle]

Specifically that they don't play more road games against top eastern teams. Wisconsin played 8 in 13 years (between nonconf losses to RMU in 09 and Penn State in 2022)(and a number of neutral site games which is good, but not the same). Clarkson, for comparison, played 9 in 08-09 and 09-10 alone.

If you're an eastern fan, or maybe a midwestern fan that doesn't get BTN, you should be able to watch Wisconsin play a team like Quinnipiac more than roughly once every other year.

Same as college basketball - a coach and program is measured by 20 win seasons. The same applies to college hockey. When you hit that number the administration is happy. Now whether stacking your record with creampuffs helps you come tournament time whether in conference or in the dance is a different question. I think most coaches are comfortable with the 20 wins whether it has creampuffs or not because that is job security for the coach.

Yup, that's it. Mark Johnson is worried about getting to 20 wins, so as to keep his job safe. You've nailed it.

SMH....

 

[Timothy A]

Except for the 87 against Lindenwood

MJ has made specific comments in the past about why they play Lindenwood. To grow the game.

 

[nobody72924]

This weekend St. Cloud, Minnesota, New Hampshire and Merrimack are all playing in Minneapolis. Friday, St. Cloud plays New Hampshire and Minnesota plays Merrimack. On Saturday, St. Cloud plays Merrimack and Minnesota plays New Hampshire.

To get east teams to play west teams more this is a good way to do it. Have 4 teams and switch who plays who. A WCHA-ECAC big hockey challenge one weekend with top 8 teams (I choose 8 because the WCHA has 8 teams) from each conference would be good for women’s hockey. The next year switching which conference plays which could change.

WCHA-ECAC
CHA-Hockey East
WCHA-CHA
ECAC-Hockey East
WCHA-Hockey East
ECAC-CHA

Put on a 6 year rotation. Could be fun.

 

[robertearle]

This weekend St. Cloud, Minnesota, New Hampshire and Merrimack are all playing in Minneapolis. Friday, St. Cloud plays New Hampshire and Minnesota plays Merrimack. On Saturday, St. Cloud plays Merrimack and Minnesota plays New Hampshire.

To get east teams to play west teams more this is a good way to do it. Have 4 teams and switch who plays who. A WCHA-ECAC big hockey challenge one weekend with top 8 teams (I choose 8 because the WCHA has 8 teams) from each conference would be good for women’s hockey. The next year switching which conference plays which could change.

WCHA-ECAC
CHA-Hockey East
WCHA-CHA
ECAC-Hockey East
WCHA-Hockey East
ECAC-CHA

Put on a 6 year rotation. Could be fun.

Sorry, but according to "the rules" such four-team weekends don't "count".

If they did, then Wisconsin games vs Northeastern and BU and Robert Morris would have to be acknowledged, and then the premise looks even worse.

 

[KTDC]

Yup, that's it. Mark Johnson is worried about getting to 20 wins, so as to keep his job safe. You've nailed it.

SMH....

From his user profile:
TitleIXHockey
Golden Knight
"2 important things: I am furthest west of anyone and therefore have no eastern bias. I don't turn up my nose at any team just because mine h"

The guy is absurd on his face.

 

[Nowheresville]

MJ has made specific comments in the past about why they play Lindenwood. To grow the game.

Let's be honest though, that's a PR statement.

Wisconsin and Lindenwood play each other so often because it makes financial sense. Wisconsin is the closest D1 program to Lindenwood, and it's the only non-conference location Wisconsin can go to that is a bus trip.

That's not a criticism, that's just the financial reality of the sport. I certainly don't expect MJ or anyone else to come out and say that publicly, but lets also not pretend that Wisconsin would be trying to "grow the game" by scheduling Lindenwood every year if it wasn't also the most cost-effective way to fill out the schedule.

 

[Lindsay]

Let's be honest though, that's a PR statement.

Wisconsin and Lindenwood play each other so often because it makes financial sense. Wisconsin is the closest D1 program to Lindenwood, and it's the only non-conference location Wisconsin can go to that is a bus trip.

That's not a criticism, that's just the financial reality of the sport. I certainly don't expect MJ or anyone else to come out and say that publicly, but lets also not pretend that Wisconsin would be trying to "grow the game" by scheduling Lindenwood every year if it wasn't also the most cost-effective way to fill out the schedule.

Yes and also Lindenwood doesn’t have a full 34 game schedule. Getting Robert Morris back will help. The Wisconsin dates, although blowouts are probably better than nothing for LU.

 

[Steamboat]

Yes and also Lindenwood doesn’t have a full 34 game schedule. Getting Robert Morris back will help. The Wisconsin dates, although blowouts are probably better than nothing for LU.

Let's give Lindenwood some credit. Sometimes you learn nothing from an old fashioned woodshed beatdown other than you have a long way to go. When you do play top ranked teams on a regular basis, (such as Bemidji or Mankato), there are learning opportunities that eventually may create an upset. There may be no logic in how the conferences are set up now, but I think that any opportunities for play given to outlier teams like Lindenwood are good for the game of women's hockey. Who knows where Lindenwood might end up in the future?

 

[Timothy A]

Let's give Lindenwood some credit. Sometimes you learn nothing from an old fashioned woodshed beatdown other than you have a long way to go. When you do play top ranked teams on a regular basis, (such as Bemidji or Mankato), there are learning opportunities that eventually may create an upset. There may be no logic in how the conferences are set up now, but I think that any opportunities for play given to outlier teams like Lindenwood are good for the game of women's hockey. Who knows where Lindenwood might end up in the future?

And half there roster is from MN Ont and MI, so any series they head north for is good for the player's families.

 

[Nowheresville]

Has there ever been a more insane disconnect between the Title of a thread and the premise of the first post?

Should good teams schedule more good non-conference opponents? Well, some good teams - like Clarkson certainly should, especially when they only play 2 games each against conference opponents. Clarkson has 13 non-conference games, and exactly zero of those NC games are against teams ranked in the top 15. They won't even get on a plane once during the regular season. During the entire season, Clarkson will only play 8 games total against teams currently ranked in the top 15.

Meanwhile, the top western schools all do schedule top quality NC opponents, despite playing a more robust conference schedule which only leaves room for 6 NC games total.

Ohio State has 4 games against Colgate and Cornell. Add in conference games and Ohio State will play 20 of it's 34 games against the top 15.
Wisconsin played 4 road games against Penn State and Quinnipiac - so they are also playing 20 of it's 34 games against the top 15.
Minnesota played Penn State and Yale, in addition to unranked Merrimack and New Hampshire, for 19 games against the top 15.

How anyone reaches the conclusion that "WCHA is just depriving the eastern schools of quality nonconference matchups to pad their PWR" while they actually do play top level NC opponents, while schools like Clarkson not only don't schedule tough WCHA schools, they don't even try to go up against quality Hockey East schools that are an easy bus trip away. Instead they just play the Sacred Heart, Syracuse, Maine, and Bemidji State. Hell, I find it annoying when Minnesota and St. Cloud spend a NC game on the HoF game matchup - but at least with the travel considerations, it makes sense. Meanwhile, Clarkson has scheduled 3 extra games against St. Lawrence beyond their conference schedule, when they certainly could instead try to fit in a trip to one of the Boston schools.

Is the entire point of this thread just a weird kind of projection?

 

[Lindsay]

Let's give Lindenwood some credit. Sometimes you learn nothing from an old fashioned woodshed beatdown other than you have a long way to go. When you do play top ranked teams on a regular basis, (such as Bemidji or Mankato), there are learning opportunities that eventually may create an upset. There may be no logic in how the conferences are set up now, but I think that any opportunities for play given to outlier teams like Lindenwood are good for the game of women's hockey.

agreed. Not trying to discredit Lindenwood and sorry if it came off that way. I’d love to see them beat Wisco, but I don’t expect it to happen soon and those are the facts for almost every team in the nation. LU absolutely can learn from that series. At the time on the board we talked about the need to clean up dumb penalties away from the play, and Ferenc’s ability to keep the scoreboard close even if nothing else is. Their D cleared pucks in front well and made a good first pass but the wingers (not surprisingly vs a loaded Wisco) struggled to get pucks out. Yes they can learn from that, clean things up and hope to get wins against other opponents and slowly get better (until the transfer portal steals their best players but that’s a different thread). I believe they played Penn State to a one goal game this year. They do appear to run out of gas in second game and yes they absolutely need a full sched. Me referencing them getting blown out by a Wisco wasn’t meant to discredit them; there are few teams that don’t get beat down by the badgers.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Has there ever been a more insane disconnect between the Title of a thread and the premise of the first post?

Should good teams schedule more good non-conference opponents? Well, some good teams - like Clarkson certainly should, especially when they only play 2 games each against conference opponents. Clarkson has 13 non-conference games, and exactly zero of those NC games are against teams ranked in the top 15. They won't even get on a plane once during the regular season. During the entire season, Clarkson will only play 8 games total against teams currently ranked in the top 15.

Meanwhile, the top western schools all do schedule top quality NC opponents, despite playing a more robust conference schedule which only leaves room for 6 NC games total.

Ohio State has 4 games against Colgate and Cornell. Add in conference games and Ohio State will play 20 of it's 34 games against the top 15.
Wisconsin played 4 road games against Penn State and Quinnipiac - so they are also playing 20 of it's 34 games against the top 15.
Minnesota played Penn State and Yale, in addition to unranked Merrimack and New Hampshire, for 19 games against the top 15.

How anyone reaches the conclusion that "WCHA is just depriving the eastern schools of quality nonconference matchups to pad their PWR" while they actually do play top level NC opponents, while schools like Clarkson not only don't schedule tough WCHA schools, they don't even try to go up against quality Hockey East schools that are an easy bus trip away. Instead they just play the Sacred Heart, Syracuse, Maine, and Bemidji State. Hell, I find it annoying when Minnesota and St. Cloud spend a NC game on the HoF game matchup - but at least with the travel considerations, it makes sense. Meanwhile, Clarkson has scheduled 3 extra games against St. Lawrence beyond their conference schedule, when they certainly could instead try to fit in a trip to one of the Boston schools.

Is the entire point of this thread just a weird kind of projection?

Where's that Positive Rep feature when you really need it? Excellent post.

If serious, the thread starting post gets an A+ for Audacity, but not much else. But to be honest, I kind of thought Title IX was just messing with us this time.

 

[ARM]

... the thread starting post gets an A+ for Audacity, but not much else.

I'll give you that might be what motivated it, but in general, I agree with its basic sentiment. As a fan, I would prefer if we saw more games matching championship contenders from all leagues.

Why don't we? Maybe the women's hockey coaches are more like the NCAA football coaches than they are like those in women's volleyball, in that they would rather their schedule not be any more difficult than it has to be. In the end, their first responsibility has to be to their own team, and scheduling in a way that: a) gets them into the NCAA Tournament; and b) prepares them for what they'll see there. Historically, you can't argue with their results, in spite of some anemic scheduling. What Wisconsin and Minnesota have done this season, by failing to make any noise in NC games, is leave it to teams lower in the WCHA standings to establish this season's WCHA as a power conference. Going into the season, the Gophers and Badgers knew that they had only scheduled one NCAA tourney opponent from last year in their elective games. No crying if you don't like where you get seeded when you don't show up ready for those games.

I wish that the ECAC and the WCHA had a schedule like some basketball conferences do, where they match up teams based on how they finished the previous year. Without that, one of the problems in trying to schedule the toughest ECAC opponents is that teams like Harvard and Quinnipiac can be championship caliber one year and mid-pack or lower a season later. At least the conference challenge format lessens the swings the take place over multiple years.

As for Clarkson playing SLU, those are nearby rivals. I don't think a team ever needs to apologize for scheduling a rival. Anyway, there are few teams around the country that are likely to be much better than the Saints in most seasons.

 

[robertearle]

I'll give you that might be what motivated it, but in general, I agree with its basic sentiment. As a fan, I would prefer if we saw more games matching championship contenders from all leagues.

Why don't we? Maybe the women's hockey coaches are more like the NCAA football coaches than they are like those in women's volleyball, in that they would rather their schedule not be any more difficult than it has to be. In the end, their first responsibility has to be to their own team, and scheduling in a way that: a) gets them into the NCAA Tournament; and b) prepares them for what they'll see there. Historically, you can't argue with their results, in spite of some anemic scheduling. What Wisconsin and Minnesota have done this season, by failing to make any noise in NC games, is leave it to teams lower in the WCHA standings to establish this season's WCHA as a power conference. Going into the season, the Gophers and Badgers knew that they had only scheduled one NCAA tourney opponent from last year in their elective games. No crying if you don't like where you get seeded when you don't show up ready for those games.

I wish that the ECAC and the WCHA had a schedule like some basketball conferences do, where they match up teams based on how they finished the previous year. Without that, one of the problems in trying to schedule the toughest ECAC opponents is that teams like Harvard and Quinnipiac can be championship caliber one year and mid-pack or lower a season later. At least the conference challenge format lessens the swings the take place over multiple years.

As for Clarkson playing SLU, those are nearby rivals. I don't think a team ever needs to apologize for scheduling a rival. Anyway, there are few teams around the country that are likely to be much better than the Saints in most seasons.

How far in advance do non-conference 'contracts' and dates get signed and set for hockey? If you sign a 'home-and-home' contract two years before the first of the two weekends themselves a year apart, you get to the point where you have to predict four years in advance who's going to be 'good' in a given year.

Basketball teams play as many as ten non-conference games, with a good number of them at multi-team holiday weekend tournaments, which according to 'the rules' don't count. The Big Ten volleyball schedule allows for four non-conference weeks/weekends of competition, again with multi-team weekends included; other conferences sometimes more. This year at least, Wisconsin women hockey is only playing three non-conference weekends, as are Ohio State and Duluth; Minnesota only two. (And packing up and moving a hockey team from one location to the next is a whole lot tougher than a basketball or volleyball team.)

 

[ARM]

How far in advance do non-conference 'contracts' and dates get signed and set for hockey? If you sign a 'home-and-home' contract two years before the first of the two weekends themselves a year apart, you get to the point where you have to predict four years in advance who's going to be 'good' in a given year.

Right. That's why the suggestion to adopt the basketball model, where you aren't scheduling that you'll play a specific opponent, but the team that had a comparable finish in the other conference. Your point about travel is certainly valid. The two options would be: a) four teams at a single host that rotates, swapping NC opponents from day 1 to day 2; or b) a two-game series. Option a) would be problematic when the four teams aren't fixed and are instead rotated from one year to the next. In volleyball, Wisconsin/Minnesota have such a deal with Baylor/TCU, and the Gophers have had another one for years with Penn State and Stanford/Oregon. In women's hockey, UMD and Minnesota used to have such an arrangement with Brown and Harvard back when they were two of the top ECAC teams every year. The Eastern and Western schools are close enough that busing from one site to the other for the second day is feasible. There isn't really a way to implement this for Ohio State, and Madison is at the upper limit of such an arrangement with the Bulldogs or Gophers.

If they can all go trooping off to Nashville or Las Vegas to play, then it should be possible to put together some such events on a college campus. Granted, Minnesota is hosting such a gig this weekend, but I don't think anyone is holding their breath to see how games between Merrimack/UNH vs SCSU/UM turn out.