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RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
- Thread starter hab
- Start date
5-1 & 2-0
Both losses
0-26
Unreal. Time for BV to update his resume, maybe HS hockey is a better level.
Then, 0-70 it will be!!! Or 100 loses if he stays for 2
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
We were officially eliminated from the playoffs this weekend, which was obviously a long time coming. KRACH does at least give us better than 50% odds of not finishing the year with 0 points. So we have that going for us, which is nice.
EDIT: This is mostly because of the flat odds of a tie. If you take that out, we're at 2.2% to not go completely winless.
We were officially eliminated from the playoffs this weekend, which was obviously a long time coming. KRACH does at least give us better than 50% odds of not finishing the year with 0 points. So we have that going for us, which is nice.
EDIT: This is mostly because of the flat odds of a tie. If you take that out, we're at 2.2% to not go completely winless.
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
On a Title IX basis we are over invested in women's hockey. Opportunity is supposed to be proportional to enrollment, which is a real problem for any school that has a majority female population and a football team. In our case we offer the same number of scholarships for men and women even though the male enrollment is 2x the female headcount.
More importantly, women's hockey is not a revenue sport. I doubt many schools would be willing to pay two coaches in that circumstance. We would not be the first school to keep an underachieving coach in such a sport until a contract expires or, hopefully, the coach gets tired of losing and leaves on his/her own. Other ECAC women's hockey programs like Union, Brown and Yale have seemingly dealt with the same issue.
On a Title IX basis we are over invested in women's hockey. Opportunity is supposed to be proportional to enrollment, which is a real problem for any school that has a majority female population and a football team. In our case we offer the same number of scholarships for men and women even though the male enrollment is 2x the female headcount.
More importantly, women's hockey is not a revenue sport. I doubt many schools would be willing to pay two coaches in that circumstance. We would not be the first school to keep an underachieving coach in such a sport until a contract expires or, hopefully, the coach gets tired of losing and leaves on his/her own. Other ECAC women's hockey programs like Union, Brown and Yale have seemingly dealt with the same issue.
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Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
This is a good perspective on the challenge at RPI. It seems that every year we dump on the coach of the day, but the issues are deeper. There needs to be a deeper commitment to the success of the program at the very top of the Tute's administration, and there is every reason in the world why that commitment should be there. This is the only women's D1 program at RPI. It has always attracted young athletes interested in combining top notch education in math/science/engineering with top notch athletic competition. If ever there was an opportunity for this institution to demonstrate its commitment to advancing women in these fields, this is it. Someone needs to get to the Prez and make her understand that this is much more than a hockey issue. This is an issue of the role of women at an institute like RPI, and if she doesn't understand that, then ....
This is a good perspective on the challenge at RPI. It seems that every year we dump on the coach of the day, but the issues are deeper. There needs to be a deeper commitment to the success of the program at the very top of the Tute's administration, and there is every reason in the world why that commitment should be there. This is the only women's D1 program at RPI. It has always attracted young athletes interested in combining top notch education in math/science/engineering with top notch athletic competition. If ever there was an opportunity for this institution to demonstrate its commitment to advancing women in these fields, this is it. Someone needs to get to the Prez and make her understand that this is much more than a hockey issue. This is an issue of the role of women at an institute like RPI, and if she doesn't understand that, then ....
Ralph Baer
Let's Go 'Tute!
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
A problem seems to me that even with the increase in interest by women of a technical education, it is still significantly less than the interest by men. Since there is little opportunity for continuing in hockey after graduation, the attraction of a business/management degree, which almost all of the men hockey players major in, is also not there. It seems like a large portion of the women hockey players have no interest in RPI from the start. The male/female ratio at RPI, which probably is still a negative on the men's side, does not seem to have a positive effect for the women. (Possibly because of the perception that men interested in a technical education are all nerds.)
Somehow Clarkson gets around this.
A problem seems to me that even with the increase in interest by women of a technical education, it is still significantly less than the interest by men. Since there is little opportunity for continuing in hockey after graduation, the attraction of a business/management degree, which almost all of the men hockey players major in, is also not there. It seems like a large portion of the women hockey players have no interest in RPI from the start. The male/female ratio at RPI, which probably is still a negative on the men's side, does not seem to have a positive effect for the women. (Possibly because of the perception that men interested in a technical education are all nerds.)
Somehow Clarkson gets around this.
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
I was going to make the "hey we're an engineering school" argument too, but then I also thought of Clarkson. Looking at their roster it is similar to ours (from a majors perspective, not talent). There are a lot of business majors, some science majors and an occasional engineer. The oddities, from an engineering school perspective, were several psychology majors (which would be expected at any liberal arts university), physical therapy and something called "University Studies." For the most part it would seem that we should be able to recruit the same players but they are winning and, before this year, we are perennially just above or below the playoff line. So, what's the difference? It can't be the lure of Potsdam, so is it a freebie or two every year from admissions, investing more money (and into what budget item), just getting lucky and finding the right coach, aligning of the stars,.....?
I was going to make the "hey we're an engineering school" argument too, but then I also thought of Clarkson. Looking at their roster it is similar to ours (from a majors perspective, not talent). There are a lot of business majors, some science majors and an occasional engineer. The oddities, from an engineering school perspective, were several psychology majors (which would be expected at any liberal arts university), physical therapy and something called "University Studies." For the most part it would seem that we should be able to recruit the same players but they are winning and, before this year, we are perennially just above or below the playoff line. So, what's the difference? It can't be the lure of Potsdam, so is it a freebie or two every year from admissions, investing more money (and into what budget item), just getting lucky and finding the right coach, aligning of the stars,.....?
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Ralph Baer
Let's Go 'Tute!
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
They are also much nearer the Canadian border which some players might regard as attractive. Also they took out the word "Technology" from their name which might fool some.
They are also much nearer the Canadian border which some players might regard as attractive. Also they took out the word "Technology" from their name which might fool some.
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
True, but in practice the proximity argument doesn't really apply in most cases. If you live in far Eastern Ontario (Ottawa/Kingston, Cornwall triangle) then Clarkson is far closer. If you live from Montreal on to the east or Toronto on to the west it really isn't significant because Potsdam can only be reached by country highway while Troy can be reached by interstate. Montreal and Toronto are only about an extra hour to Troy versus Potsdam. The number of players for whom proximity, unless they just want to be close to the St. Lawrence River because it reminds them of home, is really significant is a distinct minority of the roster. Add in the number of Americans and Europeans on the rosters and it's just hard to imagine it explains much of the difference in success rates between the programs.
True, but in practice the proximity argument doesn't really apply in most cases. If you live in far Eastern Ontario (Ottawa/Kingston, Cornwall triangle) then Clarkson is far closer. If you live from Montreal on to the east or Toronto on to the west it really isn't significant because Potsdam can only be reached by country highway while Troy can be reached by interstate. Montreal and Toronto are only about an extra hour to Troy versus Potsdam. The number of players for whom proximity, unless they just want to be close to the St. Lawrence River because it reminds them of home, is really significant is a distinct minority of the roster. Add in the number of Americans and Europeans on the rosters and it's just hard to imagine it explains much of the difference in success rates between the programs.
Reddington
Well-known member
You just don't understand RPI - the men's hockey program makes an otherwise mundane school a little more attractive in the winter to prospective students. The students show up for the men. What you have to give the men you also have to give to the women. That's just my opinion. However, one could argue that the men's program is not interested in being competitive either. And that might be the mindset now.
After 45 years I've seen the light......
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
It can't be the lure of Potsdam, CHECK
so is it a freebie or two every year from admissions Not privey to that info
investing more money CHECK
just getting lucky No a President and AD that are fully behind both hockey programs and expect excellence in hockey just like the academics of the school
and finding the right coaches: Double Check Shannon and Matt Desrosiers
aligning of the stars,.....?You never know what mysterious forces there are at work in the universe
It can't be the lure of Potsdam, CHECK
so is it a freebie or two every year from admissions Not privey to that info
investing more money CHECK
just getting lucky No a President and AD that are fully behind both hockey programs and expect excellence in hockey just like the academics of the school
and finding the right coaches: Double Check Shannon and Matt Desrosiers
aligning of the stars,.....?You never know what mysterious forces there are at work in the universe
Northbynorthwest
New member
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
Title IX proportionality does not apply to a D3 university.
Distance doesn't matter, players go to play wherever.
Engineering school issue, nope, plenty of other rigorous universities out there that succeed in both men and women's programs.
The issue comes down to a prez and ad that don't care. ad was quoted at doing a national search, never happened. prez stated upgrading the rink, yeah right.
Obviously not spending money and you have a hard time winning if you don't.
Now the last piece is a culture and trying to change it. NOT easy to change even if it seems everyone is pulling to do so. With that culture other teams expect to win. Frustration sets in, I'm sure a lack of proper coaching communication and player understanding happens. Little slights are magnified, players stop buying in.
Plenty of examples from pro sports, college sports and more than hockey that show this.
Culture change starts from the top and when the top does more than mouth service it can happen.
Title IX proportionality does not apply to a D3 university.
Distance doesn't matter, players go to play wherever.
Engineering school issue, nope, plenty of other rigorous universities out there that succeed in both men and women's programs.
The issue comes down to a prez and ad that don't care. ad was quoted at doing a national search, never happened. prez stated upgrading the rink, yeah right.
Obviously not spending money and you have a hard time winning if you don't.
Now the last piece is a culture and trying to change it. NOT easy to change even if it seems everyone is pulling to do so. With that culture other teams expect to win. Frustration sets in, I'm sure a lack of proper coaching communication and player understanding happens. Little slights are magnified, players stop buying in.
Plenty of examples from pro sports, college sports and more than hockey that show this.
Culture change starts from the top and when the top does more than mouth service it can happen.
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
My understanding is that title IX applies across ALL programs at all levels. my daughter is playing DIII and there have been discussions about title IX implications. don't think that's just a DI impact.
My understanding is that title IX applies across ALL programs at all levels. my daughter is playing DIII and there have been discussions about title IX implications. don't think that's just a DI impact.
MAHOCKEY FAN
Member
I believe it even plays a roll in high school.
Still Eeyore
New member
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
Title IX is an amendment to Title 20 of the U.S. Code, which pertains to all educational institutions, of all levels, that receive any federal government aid, defined broadly. It covers all aspects of education, not just athletics. It is constituted as Chapter 38 of Title 20. You can find it here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/chapter-38
Title IX is an amendment to Title 20 of the U.S. Code, which pertains to all educational institutions, of all levels, that receive any federal government aid, defined broadly. It covers all aspects of education, not just athletics. It is constituted as Chapter 38 of Title 20. You can find it here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/chapter-38
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
The proportionality rule applies to scholarships so that element doesn't apply to most D-III schools. It does apply to hockey at RPI due to the grandfathering provision passed about 15 years ago.
However, Title IX overall applies to all educational institutions receiving federal money . It requires equity between opportunities for men and women not just for athletics but all programs. I'm sure there are complicated criteria that are used to assess "equity."
Edit: I see Eeyore beat me to it.
The proportionality rule applies to scholarships so that element doesn't apply to most D-III schools. It does apply to hockey at RPI due to the grandfathering provision passed about 15 years ago.
However, Title IX overall applies to all educational institutions receiving federal money . It requires equity between opportunities for men and women not just for athletics but all programs. I'm sure there are complicated criteria that are used to assess "equity."
Edit: I see Eeyore beat me to it.
Still Eeyore
New member
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
This is false. Proportionality is not limited to scholarships. Indeed, proportionality of scholarships is not actually required, though it would be difficult to satisfy Title IX if they are far out of balance over a long period. What Title IX requires, in regards to athletics and according to a large body of case law, is that an institution must provide athletic opportunities substantially proportional to gender representation in the institution as a whole. One aspect of this is that there must be substantially proportional access to such opportunities, and proportional scholarships are one of the three ways that a school can demonstrate compliance. It does have extra importance, because providing proportional scholarships provides a safe harbor, while the other two are subject to litigation. The three tests are:
(1) Whether intercollegiate level participation opportunities for male and female students are provided in numbers substantially proportionate to their respective enrollments; or
(2) Where the members of one sex have been and are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, whether the institution can show a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interest and abilities of the members of thatsex; or
(3) Where the members of one sex are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, and the institution cannot show a continuing practice of program expansion such as that cited above, whether it can be demonstrated that the interests and abilities of the members of that sex have been fully and effectively accommodated by the present program.
Item one is not specifically about scholarships. A school that does not offer them must still provide proportional opportunities on varsity teams to satisfy the test.
There is a second issue beyond access, which is that the institution must provide equivalent treatment for the athletes in things such as: quality of facilities and equipment; practice times; travel and per diems; and a number of other measures. Substantial proportionality is not the standard here.
This is false. Proportionality is not limited to scholarships. Indeed, proportionality of scholarships is not actually required, though it would be difficult to satisfy Title IX if they are far out of balance over a long period. What Title IX requires, in regards to athletics and according to a large body of case law, is that an institution must provide athletic opportunities substantially proportional to gender representation in the institution as a whole. One aspect of this is that there must be substantially proportional access to such opportunities, and proportional scholarships are one of the three ways that a school can demonstrate compliance. It does have extra importance, because providing proportional scholarships provides a safe harbor, while the other two are subject to litigation. The three tests are:
(1) Whether intercollegiate level participation opportunities for male and female students are provided in numbers substantially proportionate to their respective enrollments; or
(2) Where the members of one sex have been and are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, whether the institution can show a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interest and abilities of the members of thatsex; or
(3) Where the members of one sex are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, and the institution cannot show a continuing practice of program expansion such as that cited above, whether it can be demonstrated that the interests and abilities of the members of that sex have been fully and effectively accommodated by the present program.
Item one is not specifically about scholarships. A school that does not offer them must still provide proportional opportunities on varsity teams to satisfy the test.
There is a second issue beyond access, which is that the institution must provide equivalent treatment for the athletes in things such as: quality of facilities and equipment; practice times; travel and per diems; and a number of other measures. Substantial proportionality is not the standard here.
Re: RPI 2019-2020: Life after Lovisa
RPI's women's hockey team was mentioned in Sports Illustrated's first issue of the year (they only print one issue a month nowadays).
Unfortunately (though probably not surprisingly), it wasn't a particularly positive mention. A Faces in the Crowd item about Clarkson's Elizabeth Giguere mentioned that she had become the school's all-time assists leader with two assists in a 5-0 defeat of Rensselaer.
At least they spelled the school's name correctly.
RPI's women's hockey team was mentioned in Sports Illustrated's first issue of the year (they only print one issue a month nowadays).
Unfortunately (though probably not surprisingly), it wasn't a particularly positive mention. A Faces in the Crowd item about Clarkson's Elizabeth Giguere mentioned that she had become the school's all-time assists leader with two assists in a 5-0 defeat of Rensselaer.
At least they spelled the school's name correctly.