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POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

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Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

I think a lot of that is affect. Franken talks like a midwesterner so it's not perceived as patronizing. Likewise Clinton as a southerner. Northeastern liberals are criticized as patronizing even when they aren't -- it's just a bias. Middle America is so keyed up about supposedly being patronized by those mean old coastals that they read it into everything. It's like college sophomores reading everything as racist or sexist.

This. "All skyscrapers are phallic! Patriarchy! :mad:"

Some of these people need a good reality check. Their way of life is dying, but they refuse to admit it, or try to find other ways of making a living. We shouldn't bring back coal just to suit the whims of a bunch of aimless, angry white people in West Virginia, but we do need to find other blue collar work for them to do so that they lay off shooting H and popping Xannies. That is the challenge at hand, and also what needs to be explained to the smug Ivy grads who don't give a crap about them.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

That is the challenge at hand, and also what needs to be explained to the smug Ivy grads who don't give a crap about them.

Had to laugh at the two articles on this front page. And yet people are still trying to tell me that the candidate that proposed major improvements to rural internet infrastructure was the one that didn't care about them. Playing into the weaknesses of vulnerable people(their fears and their prejudices) is not the same as giving a crap about them. In fact, it's the opposite.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Had to laugh at the two articles on this front page. And yet people are still trying to tell me that the candidate that proposed major improvements to rural internet infrastructure was the one that didn't care about them. Playing into the weaknesses of vulnerable people(their fears and their prejudices) is not the same as giving a crap about them. In fact, it's the opposite.

He proposed a $1 trillion infrastructure spending package - they liked hearing that a lot more than Hillary's token "spend more on tech". Now that's been pushed off to next year, and most likely will fade into memory. Way to keep your promises, Donnie.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Agreed, it's true that they need more blue collar jobs but really there just needs to be more jobs in general that pay a living wage. And while people hate the idea of fast food and other lower skilled workers making $15 an hour it really isn't that much different than other blue collar jobs that receive similar pay. Min wage probably wouldn't be a bad place to start.
 
He proposed a $1 trillion infrastructure spending package - they liked hearing that a lot more than Hillary's token "spend more on tech". Now that's been pushed off to next year, and most likely will fade into memory. Way to keep your promises, Donnie.

But he's going to get that wall built to keep out "those" people!

Speaking of the wall, I saw a photo going around Twitter this morning of a screenshot of Fox News with the wall details: 30' tall, pretty from the US side, and something else. The follow up image was a Google search for a 32' ladder.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Also, imagine if Franken were the nominee, all the Stuart Smalley campaign ads we'd get. It'd be glorious. Trump would go insane. That, and he needs to pick Jill Stein as a VP, so we can have the Franken-Stein ticket.


That would be a monster ticket.












:D
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

I think a lot of that is affect. Franken talks like a midwesterner so it's not perceived as patronizing. Likewise Clinton as a southerner. Northeastern liberals are criticized as patronizing even when they aren't -- it's just a bias. Middle America is so keyed up about supposedly being patronized by those mean old coastals that they read it into everything. It's like college sophomores reading everything as racist or sexist. It's on them, not the interlocutor.

Everybody is equally full of sh-t: working class heroes as well as university twits. Everybody is primed to be defensive towards those they believe aren't respecting them. Sometimes it really is warranted, but most of the time it's snowflakes just wanting to feel aggrieved.

Or he just talks like everyone else does and people like that. He has never been one to act like he knows better even in arguments in the Senate...it is why Senators like him.

The problem with the Eastern Liberals is they all act like their smartest person in the room and we should all be honored to hear their opinions. They also speak in absolutes (see: your contention that all misogynists are Republican) which leaves a lot of people out of their oversimplifying generalizations.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Also, imagine if Franken were the nominee, all the Stuart Smalley campaign ads we'd get. It'd be glorious. Trump would go insane. That, and he needs to pick Jill Stein as a VP, so we can have the Franken-Stein ticket.


That would be a monster ticket.












:D

Then they could use the old "Tonto-Frankenstein-Tarzan" bit from SNL...FIRE BAD!!!
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

The problem with the Eastern Liberals is they all act like their smartest person in the room and we should all be honored to hear their opinions. They also speak in absolutes (see: your contention that all misogynists are Republican) which leaves a lot of people out of their oversimplifying generalizations.

It is ironic that you use an absolute in decrying absolutes. ;)

Again, I think much (not all) of this is just how you hear it. I've been all over the country and there are people who think they're God's Gift everywhere, and there are people who are modest and circumspect everywhere.

Part of what the Midwest might view as arrogance is just the aggressiveness that Northeasterners need to get a word in edgewise. Regions have different speeds and different moods, and when people aren't in their element they can be misinterpreted.

Likewise there is parochialism and snobbery everywhere. There is no snobbery more absolute and judgmental than Country Snobbery, where if you haven't fixed a tractor manually to get the north forty in before sunset you're nothing. Everybody everywhere builds a medal stand where they just happen to be at the top.

Country mouse / city mouse rivalry is probably as old as Uruk. I firmly believe the vast majority of instances in which each thinks the other is being obnoxious to them, it's just a misunderstanding. As a co-worker said to me after knowing me for 5 years, "we used to think you were putting on airs and being showy because of your vocabulary, but we finally figured out that's just the way you all talk."

The other thing is subtext and humor vary with region. So for example speaking in "absolutes" is very much a thing among people who I went to college with because we all have a firm grounding that nothing is ever absolute and everything is various types of distribution. When you know the guy who is speaking is a natural statistician, when he says "x are A and y are B" you implicitly translate that to a statement about probabilities and tendencies. I'll give a related example: when I make a statement which upon later evidence turns out to be false, I encapsulate all that information with "I lied." I have actually had some of my local coworkers look at me aghast until they figure out that "I lied" means a string of implied statements that are roughly "at the time I based my working assumptions on this data, but later information has caused me to revise.... blah blah blah" I'm bored just thinking about it. So, "I lied."

We all use these idioms so naturally and unconsciously that when we are a fish out of water we have to be very careful. I almost got fired the first day at a new job because I jokingly said something like "well you think that because you're an idiot..." Again, where I come from that means "you're obviously very smart so the fact that you and I differ means we probably have some hitherto unidentified difference in basic assumptions or .... " again, blah blah blah.

I'm circling around with that last example to what I think is the thin-skinnedness of midwesterners sometimes. When for example I said "... an idiot" I didn't realize at the time I was the only college graduate in the room -- it just would never have occurred to me 15 years ago to even think about that. But they all sure did. So that seemed like an unbelievably jarring and obnoxious statement because it reinforced all their prejudices about me that I wasn't even aware they had. Now, 15 years on, I know to be very careful about hurting feelings and coming off wrong -- for example, I am very careful with vocabulary, I make sure I use the simplest accurate term, and I don't use word play or puns or other verbal games that are antenna touching where I come from but misunderstood where I work. That is an extra imposition on me due to the fact that these people are completely convinced that if somebody uses a word they don't know that's a calculated insult. That's on them, but I want an effective and enjoyable work environment so I make the effort.

My advice is for everyone to listen more, criticize less. My assumption when my feathers are ruffled is that it's a miscommunication. I give the benefit of the doubt until it just becomes impossible due to repeated enemy action. Only then do I, er, employ countermeasures.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

But he's going to get that wall built to keep out "those" people!

Speaking of the wall, I saw a photo going around Twitter this morning of a screenshot of Fox News with the wall details: 30' tall, pretty from the US side, and something else. The follow up image was a Google search for a 32' ladder.

Since he's gutting the Coast Guard, they could just boat around
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

He proposed a $1 trillion infrastructure spending package - they liked hearing that a lot more than Hillary's token "spend more on tech". Now that's been pushed off to next year, and most likely will fade into memory. Way to keep your promises, Donnie.

Yeah, sure. It was the "infrastructure package".
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

He proposed a $1 trillion infrastructure spending package - they liked hearing that a lot more than Hillary's token "spend more on tech". Now that's been pushed off to next year, and most likely will fade into memory. Way to keep your promises, Donnie.

Lies.

It's not a 1 trillion dollar infrastructure package. It may amount to a trillion dollars but that's meaningless. Don't let them fool you like they fool everyone else.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

I would say that the blueprint for Dems is the Bill Clinton formula. Franken could maybe aww shucks it up a little here and there enough to pull it off.

The problem to me for Dems is that the kind of broad appeal Midwestern Dem that really could win going away, doesn't seem to be what the Party wants at all.

It isn't what the party wants. At all. They will likely go with someone who appeals to a broad range of the identity politics that have been costing Democrats elections all over the country for years now. Unless and until the party focuses on jobs, wages and the economy -- pretty much to the exclusion of everything else -- it will continue to flounder.

Look at the 5h!tty results over the last few years. We have held both houses of congress for a total of 4 years since 1994. After nearly 40 years of holding both, sometimes with overwhelming majorities. The party is down to just 16 governors offices. There are just 12 states with Democratic controlled legislatures and shockingly only 5 states where Democrats control both the executive and legislative branches, compared with 25 that are under complete Republican control.

The Democratic party is a wasteland of electoral defeats in nearly every corner of the country. When Tim Ryan challenged Nancy Pelosi he tried to sound the alarm, but his overwhelming defeat for House Minority leadership signals to me that the party continues to be clueless and represents very few Americans anymore. Yes they can pull in a lot of votes in a presidential election, but that really isn't even half the battle.

No matter what you believe in your heart, progressives need to realize that there are a lot of people out there who are tired of hearing about gay rights, immigration rights, trans rights, black lives matter, and anything else that they don't believe speaks specifically to THEM. They may not hate their black neighbor or believe that most Muslims are terrorists, but as long as they can't find a good enough job to live where they want and feed their families, they will seek out a scapegoat. Take away the need for a scapegoat and you take away the potential for all the animosity.

I care deeply about things like marriage equality, the environment or pretty much any progressive cause you can name. But progressives have got to see that until we reach a state of more equal economic justice, all of the other things take a backseat that really isn't even in the same car. If the Democratic party embraced this ideal and put the vast majority of their party's focus on it, they'd win elections again. And not just in Massachusetts or California. It is something the Hillary campaign failed miserably to grasp, and why it lost in PA, OH, MI and WI. I worked for a good part of 2016 on political issues and saw this up close and personal. White guys who looked (and sometimes sounded) like me were begging for someone to speak to them. In the vacuum they saw from Democrats stepped Trump. Sure they were dumb enough to believe his lies, but they would have believed the truths if the Democratic candidate would have addressed them.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Suckers.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-s-secret-plan-beat-isis-looks-lot-obama-s-n735171

Donald Trump promised during the campaign to implement a "secret plan" to defeat ISIS, including a pledge to "bomb the hell out of" the terror group in Iraq and Syria.

Now, the Pentagon has given him a secret plan, but it turns out to be a little more than an "intensification" of the same slow and steady approach that Trump derided under the Obama administration, two senior officials who have reviewed the document told NBC News.

Seriously. How ****ing stupid is this electorate??
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

It isn't what the party wants. At all. They will likely go with someone who appeals to a broad range of the identity politics that have been costing Democrats elections all over the country for years now. Unless and until the party focuses on jobs, wages and the economy -- pretty much to the exclusion of everything else -- it will continue to flounder.

Get out of my head!

Actually, you can stay, you say the things I think more clearly than I.

Identity politics is going to continue to hurt Democrats. It's as irrelevant to young people today as the New Deal was to young people in the 60s, but its practitioners still dominate the mainstream party and, worse, its crusaders still dominate university faculties. The consequence is even though there is no longer a market for that product in the real world, the model keeps on dropping off the assembly line. If you listen to the students shouting down speakers at Middlebury they are still speaking the language that their professors originated in the 60s. They speak it because that is what they are rewarded for on papers or public statements, or in articles submitted to high tone lefty magazines.

We have a weird situations in which young activists are behind their own times. The identity themes that drive Women's Studies and African American Studies departments and Daily Kos and the New York Times Op Ed page and progressive radio and marches are fifty years out of date. Two generations of normal people have moved past them and are now laser focused on economic themes where the real issues are, but the machine that churns out the leadership on the left is literally not competent to lead those young people. Hillary's campaign was only an atrocious extreme of what is an endemic liberal problem. The self-appointed "vanguard" has lost touch with the rank and file. They still want to scream about symptoms: sexism and racism and homophobia. But young people who haven't been programmed by Harvard or Bard already take all of that as read, and have moved on to root causes: inequality, militarization, the surveillance state.

It would be OK if it were just a matter of waiting for the old pols to die. That's what happened in the 60s. But the next generation of "leaders" are still parroting the old language, and utterly miss where the people have gone. So you get the grotesque result that Donald Freaking Trump talks more effectively about plutocratic elites than the Democratic nominee.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

No matter what you believe in your heart, progressives need to realize that there are a lot of people out there who are tired of hearing about gay rights, immigration rights, trans rights, black lives matter, and anything else that they don't believe speaks specifically to THEM. They may not hate their black neighbor or believe that most Muslims are terrorists, but as long as they can't find a good enough job to live where they want and feed their families, they will seek out a scapegoat. Take away the need for a scapegoat and you take away the potential for all the animosity.

Yes, but. Pretty much all of the items you say people are tired about hearing about are items that Republicans have tried to tighten the control of over, or outright ban. As a society, we had gotten into kind of a stalemate in terms of gay and trans rights- and all of a sudden, anti-gay marriage things popped up all over the country. Which thrust the issue into the lime light, and ended in a pretty inevitable ending at the SCOTUS. Or, as the case is for trans rights- has lead to NC being boycotted by a number of groups- most recently noted the NCAA's regional tournament that should have been there over the weekend.

BLM- that's just because minorities are tired of getting the brunt of wrong police action- be it shooting or treated wrong. That bubble was going to burst at some point, and I'm kind of surprised that Hispanics have not joined into that fight. Again, the whole war on drugs, "rule of law" kind of trend came from Republicans.

And the recent Muslim actions speak for themselves.

So, pretty much across the board- all of the current social issues that are being played out, that people are tired of, that you want to not talk about- are started because of restrictions put down by Republicans.

How can we not speak up against that?

Unless it's a massive distraction to keep the general electorate on one side or the other.

To me, the problem is that there are SO many new issues that the economic issues that Democrats DO talk about get completely missed. Of they have already changed the channel.

We can't sit back and let one side restrict people's rights. Heck, any time gun control is brought up, the NRA is there in spades.
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

Lies.

It's not a 1 trillion dollar infrastructure package. It may amount to a trillion dollars but that's meaningless. Don't let them fool you like they fool everyone else.

Sweet Jeebus no. Cheeto Benito's not fooling me. I'm telling you what the fools who voted for him, heard him say. You know, the people who watch Fox as their "mainstream" news source, and read Breitbart or Red State for "the truth".
 
Re: POTUS 45.6 - Russia Is Just A Witch Hunt

It is ironic that you use an absolute in decrying absolutes. ;)

I did it for a reason.

And remember I am not speaking for me just what seems to be the case with the average midwestern rube ;)
 
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