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POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

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Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

The Sicatoka said:
There are no degrees of murder to the victim. They're dead. Claiming the punishment should be worse because of an aggravating factor is saying that factor is more valuable than the life that was taken, or that one life is more valuable than another.
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So then you have never actually talked to anyone who had someone murdered (or assaulted) because of a factor like religion or color or sexual orientation? I have and trust me the aggravating factor makes a helluva difference.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

MaizeRage said:
Well that's the piece of **** you keep bending over backwards to defend, which by default, makes you a piece of **** too.
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No, wrong, very wrong. This is "defense attorneys are also criminals" or "You are fully entitled to a legal defense in your witchcraft trial however anyone who defends a witch is also a witch. Now. Who's your lawyer?"
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

Handyman said:
So then you have never actually talked to anyone who had someone murdered (or assaulted) because of a factor like religion or color or sexual orientation? I have and trust me the aggravating factor makes a helluva difference.
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Sure, but that motive helps them be convicted and also prevents them from taking a plea on a lesser charge. It doesn't have to be a separate charge or have different punishment.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

ScoobyDoo said:
That is the stupidest idea the Republicans have ever had. Just dumb. I cannot believe the US is doing this crap.
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To be fair, this is not even in the top ten of stupidest ideas Republicans have ever had.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

ScoobyDoo said:
Sure, but that motive helps them be convicted and also prevents them from taking a plea on a lesser charge. It doesn't have to be a separate charge or have different punishment.
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This kind of touches on another problem I have with hate crime charges. I personally believe it is something prosecutors really like because it opens up the evidence to the defendant's bad character acts, as a way of demeaning the defendant before the jury to get a conviction.

You could very easily have some turd out there writing posts supporting white power on Facebook who did not actually commit the crime. But it's a powerful tool for the prosecutor to bring in all those posts, and pictures of him with the Confederate flag, etc..., and paint this guy as an admittedly bad guy, all under the guise of proving the "hate crime" element to it.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

Kepler said:
No, wrong, very wrong. This is "defense attorneys are also criminals" or "You are fully entitled to a legal defense in your witchcraft trial however anyone who defends a witch is also a witch. Now. Who's your lawyer?"
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Is he defending him in a court of law?:rolleyes:
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

ScoobyDoo said:
Sure, but that motive helps them be convicted and also prevents them from taking a plea on a lesser charge. It doesn't have to be a separate charge or have different punishment.
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I dont think it should be a separate charge (you shouldnt be charged with "Hate Crime" on its own) but if Dylan Roof wants to kill Blacky and shoots up a Black Church to do it he should have extra tacked on because of it. That is a worse crime. (and it would be in reverse as well)

Let me tell you something to help you understand why I feel this way...I have had people pick fights with me over the years for many reasons. When I bartended the things said and threatened towards me (even attempted) are easy to imagine. I never felt unsafe though. When I read about the bomb threat at the JCC in St. Paul, even though I live in a different city I was scared and upset. It is a different animal, it triggers different fears and for now at least, should be treated as a different type of crime. (just like terrorism is)
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

MaizeRage said:
Is he defending him in a court of law?:rolleyes:
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Does that mean if I say on the street that I think a criminal should still have his due process rights observed that makes me a criminal?

I think you're letting emotion get in the way of judgment. The fact that you keep having to throw in snotty language or emoticons suggests to me that you are feeling, not thinking. You are trying to appeal to THE GENERAL WRATH instead of logic.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

SJHovey said:
This kind of touches on another problem I have with hate crime charges. I personally believe it is something prosecutors really like because it opens up the evidence to the defendant's bad character acts, as a way of demeaning the defendant before the jury to get a conviction.

You could very easily have some turd out there writing posts supporting white power on Facebook who did not actually commit the crime. But it's a powerful tool for the prosecutor to bring in all those posts, and pictures of him with the Confederate flag, etc..., and paint this guy as an admittedly bad guy, all under the guise of proving the "hate crime" element to it.
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This is true. It's the equivalent of the cops always saying "this thug" when all they've got is a black guy. But it gets the conviction between white folk are scurred of black people.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

Kepler said:
Does that mean if I say on the street that I think a criminal should still have his due process rights observed that makes me a criminal?
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No. But if you're saying you're glad he's committing those crimes and defending his right to do them, that makes you a *********.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

Kepler said:
Not exactly, though, because context sometimes makes the crime. If you burn a cross on my lawn that's very different from burning a cross on a black person's lawn. The law should not be limited to the property damage. There are contextual elements that have to be considered -- the cross on the black man's lawn is a much bigger threat of further violence.

I think hate crimes were trying to acknowledge that, which is a valid concern. The problem in Britain at least is now you can go to jail for using the "n" word, and that's crazy.
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This is why I go back-and-forth on hate crime laws. Their application may be appropriate in some instances because the crime is indeed worse. The counterbalance is what you cited at the end. That's a pretty ****ty application of the law.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

dxmnkd316 said:
This is why I go back-and-forth on hate crime laws. Their application may be appropriate in some instances because the crime is indeed worse. The counterbalance is what you cited at the end. That's a pretty ****ty application of the law.
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Right, what I'm trying to get at is it's not an unalloyed good. There are tensions in the effects of the law.

And it is also telling that even bringing certain ideas up for debate is enough to get you slammed. That typically means people are using their fists, not their brains.

Which brings me full circle back to Milo. Milo is a jerk. Milo says horrible things. But if you can't make a cogent response to Milo and his horrible things but instead fall back on name-calling and censorship, that exposes a problem, and that problem aint Milo.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

The Sicatoka said:
There are no degrees of murder to the victim. They're dead. Claiming the punishment should be worse because of an aggravating factor is saying that factor is more valuable than the life that was taken, or that one life is more valuable than another.
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That's one approach. But The People are also a party to the prosecution. Society has an interest in applying the correct punishment as a deterrent to others. The victim is dead, yes, but society lives on and must deal with the consequence.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

Kepler said:
Burning a cross on your property across from my house is a much better example than mine. If you burn a cross across from my house, you're just an idiot. If you burn a cross across from a black man's house, you're an idiot but you've just made a threat that's on par with standing on your property across from me and shouting into a bullhorn "I think somebody should kill you and rape your wife."

The latter is, I'm pretty sure, some sort of crime. So the two cross-burnings actually are different in terms of their criminality. And I think that's what hate crimes are trying to capture.

If you fly a confederate flag across the street from a black man that just makes you a redneck dou-chebag with a small dick. The flag has more meanings than a burning cross, which is unmistakeable. There is a reasonable person standard as to what constitutes a threat of harm.
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I'm going to disagree. Burning a cross on your own property shouldn't necessarily be a crime. If you do this while making threats against your neighbor, that's a crime. We have to be very careful on what we classify as a threat.
 
Re: POTUS 45.5 - Sweden is Under Attack

SJHovey said:
There are degrees with those crimes, but aren't those degrees separated by things like the level of intent involved, the actual act of sexual assault committed or age of the victim, etc...? We don't take a theft charge for instance, and enhance it because the thief intended bad fortune on the victim, as opposed to just wanting to steal the money. I always thought motive was just a way of explaining to a jury why someone may have done something, as opposed to an actual element of the crime.
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Which is worse? Sexually assaulting a minor or an adult? Should they come with different penalties?
 
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