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POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

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Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

Handyman said:
I am not upset...I just think you are completely and totally wrong and are rather blind to what protesting is and what they are actually protesting. It isnt a matter of semantics at all...
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Well, now you've got me wondering. Please clue me in to how I'm wrong (especially since I didn't explicitly state my personal take even though you probably made assumptions based on my post which may be correct) , what protesting is, and what they are actually protesting. I'm pretty sure I have this figured out but since this is not my one topic that sets me off, I'm willing to listen as long as there are no personal attacks. Seriously. What do you think I'm missing here?
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

Tiggsy said:
Well, now you've got me wondering. Please clue me in to how I'm wrong (especially since I didn't explicitly state my personal take even though you probably made assumptions based on my post which may be correct) , what protesting is, and what they are actually protesting. I'm pretty sure I have this figured out but since this is not my one topic that sets me off, I'm willing to listen as long as there are no personal attacks. Seriously. What do you think I'm missing here?
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Serious?

Tiggsy said:
I won't argue over semantics. Sorry you seem to be upset by calling it a stunt. The protest was a way to draw attention to their issue in a very public way. Pence's stunt drew attention to his point in a similar manner. I'm not arguing who has a more relevant point which might be the issue here, just the public way they are being handled.
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You don't know why a post like this is completely tone deaf? Really? Although it does fit with the theme of the day. Not only do Americans not care about sexual harassment or the environment but they also do not care about the plight of African Americans and their relationship with police departments around the country. We do however care about symbols like the Flag. And the Confederate Flag. Never forget that one.

Congrats America. You're 3 for 3 today.
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

Tiggsy said:
I won't argue over semantics. Sorry you seem to be upset by calling it a stunt. The protest was a way to draw attention to their issue in a very public way. Pence's stunt drew attention to his point in a similar manner. I'm not arguing who has a more relevant point which might be the issue here, just the public way they are being handled.
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Except he did it with tax payer money solely because he hates black people. Subtle difference I know...
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

Tiggsy said:
Well, now you've got me wondering. Please clue me in to how I'm wrong (especially since I didn't explicitly state my personal take even though you probably made assumptions based on my post which may be correct) , what protesting is, and what they are actually protesting. I'm pretty sure I have this figured out but since this is not my one topic that sets me off, I'm willing to listen as long as there are no personal attacks. Seriously. What do you think I'm missing here?
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You are wrong to believe the players are doing this as a stunt and you are wrong to equate it in any way to what Mike Pence did. I shouldnt have to explain it to you, basic facts bare it out.

But since apparently I do...

The NFL Players are protesting how the police treat African Americans. It has been that way since Day 1. Trump has changed the narrative but to them it hasnt changed one bit. They really dont have a choice if the anthem is played at the game but since it is as a form of silent protest they take a knee.

Mike Pence went to the game just to see them do this so he could act all outraged. He staged it. He wasnt even smart enough to do it right as he tipped off the media before hand and posted the wrong picture on twitter to announce he was at the game. The hunt was canned...and it cost about a million bucks to do it.

One of the actions is people trying to bring a voice to a problem in our country. The other is someone going out of his way to offended so he can vent about it. He basically did what all those campus whiners do, look for something to get outraged over.
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

ScoobyDoo said:
Serious?



You don't know why a post like this is completely tone deaf? Really? Although it does fit with the theme of the day. Not only do Americans not care about sexual harassment or the environment but they also do not care about the plight of African Americans and their relationship with police departments around the country. We do however care about symbols like the Flag. And the Confederate Flag. Never forget that one.

Congrats America. You're 3 for 3 today.
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Yes, serious. I freely admit I'm not an expert or heavily involved on this issue and only react to what I see. Tone deaf? I don't see it that way, but get why some may.

I get your point about the flag but that leads me to another question. What's next for the protesters? What is the goal now? The main point that I have understood was to draw attention to the issue, raise awareness, and start a conversation. Okay, attention has been drawn, so now what? I've always wondered this about awareness campaigns in any area, even the one I am very passionate about. I don't see them translating into anything actionable very often. What do you want to see as something tangible come from this, beyond the generalizations?

EDIT: I wrote this before I saw Handy's response. It still seems like you are upset I used the word stunt in reference to the players. Okay. Protest. You seemed to read way to much into that one word in my original post. The players are obviously trying to get attention to do exactly what you said. Pence did the same thing. Haven't the players talked to the media about it? Pence seemed more rehearsed obviously. Motives and methods were different, and that's where the disconnect lies between how you read my post. The moral difference between the two seems to be the divide here.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

Tiggsy said:
Yes, serious. I freely admit I'm not an expert or heavily involved on this issue and only react to what I see. Tone deaf? I don't see it that way, but get why some may.

I get your point about the flag but that leads me to another question. What's next for the protesters? What is the goal now? The main point that I have understood was to draw attention to the issue, raise awareness, and start a conversation. Okay, attention has been drawn, so now what? I've always wondered this about awareness campaigns in any area, even the one I am very passionate about. I don't see them translating into anything actionable very often. What do you want to see as something tangible come from this, beyond the generalizations?
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Seems like they are waiting for the honest conversation.

Given that a kid here in SE MI was killed last week, it very much sounds that we are not much even in the awareness stage.

Just because some people are aware does not mean the people who matter are.

edit- having read about Jemele Hill's suspension, it's also clear that dump and penence have tried to change the argument from social injustice to worshiping the flag and veterans. Which, to me, should tell the players to keep it up until the real message is heard.

IMHO, dump and penance are being part of the whole system that, to me, insults our veterans. Instead of actually taking care of them, we keep doing this "honor" and "we remember" and "thanks" BS so that our government can avoid the tough issue of PAYING our veterans what they really have earned and take care of them in a manner that they really have earned. Bringing them into this whole flag worship BS is the absolute wrong thing to do. Pretending that players are somehow insulting to them by kneeling when we really turn our backs on the real problems Vets have is horrible.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

alfablue said:
Seems like they are waiting for the honest conversation.
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That's my question. What does that actually mean? Conversation with who? What are the tangible goals of the conversation?
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

Tiggsy said:
That's my question. What does that actually mean? Conversation with who? What are the tangible goals of the conversation?
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Should be about changing police practice. Which means sitting down with police and working it out. The goal is to not treat minorities differently than white people - as their lives matter. Ever rate of pretty much anything is higher for minorities than whites. That needs to end.

AND the subject of the protest should not be changed- which is what penance did. That is a stupid and petty way to try to change the subject.

Nor should the state police, like is happening in Michigan right now, try to change the subject of the protesters- accusing them of being degenerates is pretty stupid. Degenerate for standing up for the rights and treatments of minorities? What's up with that?

It's pretty clear that nothing is happening. No progress is being made at all. We should not be talking about the death of a kid on an ATV due to a crash because he was tased. Nor should we be discussing a State Police Colonel's career for her trying to change the subject of the protests in a terrible and stupid way. But since we are, because both happened- the protesting has it's place.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

Tiggsy said:
Yes, serious. I freely admit I'm not an expert or heavily involved on this issue and only react to what I see. Tone deaf? I don't see it that way, but get why some may.

.
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Just like drew, always opining on stuff you're not following, or haven't really too much information on the subject.
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

Tiggsy said:
That's my question. What does that actually mean? Conversation with who? What are the tangible goals of the conversation?
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When the original Kneeler started out he at first sat. Then he met with some vets (Green Berets?) who suggested he kneel as a sign of respect for the flag and anthem while making his protest if he felt protest was necessary. Totally ironic that the very people tRump says are being dissed are the ones who suggested this method. He stated at the time he would continue to take a knee until there was an acknowledgement of what he felt the injustices were. He was very articulate, gave interviews explaining why he did what he did. He also did a lot of outreach and put his $ where his mouth was. Take home. WHat he was protesting was clear, he stated his reasons, gave a goal, etc. Then tRump et al decided to totally change the narrative, the Right media never covered that at all, only that he was a scum for not standing.

Personally I wouldn't kneel but I respect his right to do wo and it is exercising what the vets fought for.

Anyone else get a nasty feeling when they heard the anthem this past weekend at a game? tRump has managed to make the anthem into a nasty, loaded thing. He is like a cancer that someone needs to find Chemo for.
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

leswp1 said:
When the original Kneeler started out he at first sat. Then he met with some vets (Green Berets?) who suggested he kneel as a sign of respect for the flag and anthem while making his protest if he felt protest was necessary. Totally ironic that the very people tRump says are being dissed are the ones who suggested this method. He stated at the time he would continue to take a knee until there was an acknowledgement of what he felt the injustices were. He was very articulate, gave interviews explaining why he did what he did. He also did a lot of outreach and put his $ where his mouth was. Take home. WHat he was protesting was clear, he stated his reasons, gave a goal, etc. Then tRump et al decided to totally change the narrative, the Right media never covered that at all, only that he was a scum for not standing.

Personally I wouldn't kneel but I respect his right to do wo and it is exercising what the vets fought for.

Anyone else get a nasty feeling when they heard the anthem this past weekend at a game? tRump has managed to make the anthem into a nasty, loaded thing. He is like a cancer that someone needs to find Chemo for.
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That kind of political speech should be celebrated, not squelched. It's an important part of what sets us apart.
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

So, apparently Jerry Jones will not let you play if you protest during the anthem. However, he will let you play if you're a domestic abuser. Good job, Jerry. Fits the American narrative perfectly.
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

burd said:
That kind of political speech should be celebrated, not squelched. It's an important part of what sets us apart.
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It doesn't set us apart anymore. On political speech freedom the US is by this measure 43rd.

The doors are closing. Liked Britain losing its empire, we are losing our values. Nothing said they were eternal. "A republic, if you can keep it."
 
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ScoobyDoo said:
So, apparently Jerry Jones will not let you play if you protest during the anthem. However, he will let you play if you're a domestic abuser. Good job, Jerry. Fits the American narrative perfectly.
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Also remember he let Josh Brent on the sidelines after he got drunk drove and killed a fellow teammate.
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

Kepler said:
It doesn't set us apart anymore. On political speech freedom the US is by this measure 43rd.

The doors are closing. Liked Britain losing its empire, we are losing our values. Nothing said they were eternal. "A republic, if you can keep it."
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As I submitted that post, that thought crossed my mind, though I didn't know the figures. I'm glad you put them out there. Another reason why Pence's idiocy (and the amount of cover he is getting) is so g d aggravating.
 
Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

ScoobyDoo said:
So, apparently Jerry Jones will not let you play if you protest during the anthem. However, he will let you play if you're a domestic abuser. Good job, Jerry. Fits the American narrative perfectly.
Click to expand...

Zero percent chance he would bench his stars...
 
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