POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

[Drew S.]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

It saddens me that people so quickly are willing to defend the truly indefensible. People connected to trump and his campaign for the White House have committed crimes such as obstruction and likely other acts that were truly treasonous. That you trot out one false equivalency after another is appalling. That anybody does is appalling. Anybody who doesn't believe that if this was a democratic president articles of impeachment would already be drawn up and FOX would be running a red headline splashed across the screen 24/7 that screams something along the lines of "crisis in our constitution" is frightfully naive or worse. I generally refrain from strictly ad hominem attacks on other posters ever since the last time I did it Kep neg repped me and somebody ended up dying but posts like your last few try my patience. What trump and his minions are doing is TREASON and the sooner people like you find the courage to admit you are wrong, the sooner we might begin to move to a government that actually occasionally follows the rules and works for the people that put it there.

Give me both barrels if it makes you feel better. The last thing I want is to have a negative impact on anyone's mental wellbeing.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

 

[Spartanforlife4]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

Yeah, but it's not often you get to throw out that Arrested Development quote in a literal manner.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

What a twisted web...

Veselnitskaya was in the US as the attorney defending a Russian firm accused of laundering money through real estate...being prosecuted by Preet Bharara.

 

[GrinCDXX]

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

Yeah, I don't like seeing treason thrown out there. It seems like a clear overreach and it only serves to rile up the drones.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

I think you can strike perhaps...

A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election...
No person shall knowingly solicit, accept, or receive from a foreign national any contribution or donation prohibited by [this law].

 

[GrinCDXX]

I think you can strike perhaps...

While oppo research clearly has value, I doubt it's really the type of thing that was intended to be covered by that language. Just speculating, but I read that as covering money or anything that's easily convertible to money.

 

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

Well, there is the idea that don's guys went into the meeting with the idea of helping out the russian interest of making don president. And given the number of meetings that appear to have covered sanctions before don was president- there's a pretty decent trail of giving aid to the russians.

While I won't say treason right now, at this point, it would not surprise me what so ever.

One is true by default of running for President, and 2b looks highly likely at this point. WE (the public) don't have full 2b evidence, true.

 

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

I've read some more on this story since it originally came out and I still don't see how it goes anywhere if there isn't more to it. The English(not Russian) guy who set it up basically said it was a waste of time. There were other intermediaries from show business(who Trump had previously known) involved as well. The one negative thing on Trump's campaign I would say is perhaps they should have notified the FBI/DOJ, but I think most reasonable people can excuse them for not having very much faith in Loretta Lynch.

You must be reading a different set of e-mails that I've heard. Here's an annotation from NPR of the e-mails- here-http://www.npr.org/2017/07/11/536670194/donald-trump-jr-s-emails-about-meeting-with-russian-lawyer-annotated

From Goldstone to don Jr:

Good morning

Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump – helped along by Aras and Emin.

What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?

I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.

Best

Rob Goldstone

That hardly seems like the information is a waste of time- in fact, it appears that there's some very high level and probably illegally gotten documents. And this is the e-mail that jr got to entice him to the meeting.

Here's another e-mail, making it pretty darned clear WHO jr was going to meet:

Don

Hope all is well

Emin asked that I schedule a meeting with you and The Russian government attorney who is flying over from Moscow for this Thursday.

I believe you are aware of the meeting - and so wondered if 3pm or later on Thursday works for you?

I assume it would be at your office.

Best

Rob Goldstone

And if there's any question about how much jr knew, and was in on the meeting- there's a whole list of other e-mails, but here's the one spelling out who would be at the meeting, from jr

Great. It will likely be Paul Manafort (campaign boss) my brother in law and me. 725 Fifth Ave 25th floor.

It's pretty hard to come up with a "duped" idea based on the e-mail chain, just as it's pretty hard to downplay what the information is going to be- it's pretty clear this was sensitive and very high level information that not an ordinary person can come up with, and jr was clearly told that.

If you want to say this is nothing, where a business partner in Russia worked with the russian government to get information to help the don campaign with sensitive information that could have only come from the government, well, go for it, commrade.

At this point, it's hard to look at you as anything different than someone who has the intention of taking our government down.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

Well, there is the idea that don's guys went into the meeting with the idea of helping out the russian interest of making don president. And given the number of meetings that appear to have covered sanctions before don was president- there's a pretty decent trail of giving aid to the russians.

While I won't say treason right now, at this point, it would not surprise me what so ever.

One is true by default of running for President, and 2b looks highly likely at this point. WE (the public) don't have full 2b evidence, true.

That might all well be true, but 2b requires the aid to the government's enemies. Russia was not a government enemy (i.e. there was no declaration of war against Russia and the U.S. and Russia were at peace during the election) to the extent as would lead to a treason charge. What they did could very well be criminal, but it was not treason.

 

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

That might all well be true, but 2b requires the aid to the government's enemies. Russia was not a government enemy (i.e. there was no declaration of war against Russia and the U.S. and Russia were at peace during the election) to the extent as would lead to a treason charge. What they did could very well be criminal, but it was not treason.

IMHO, that remains to be interpreted. Given that Russia has made a pretty strong effort to intervene into our election, hence our governmental system, it's a pretty short distance between a nominal foe and an enemy of the US. What Russia did was not an act of peace what so ever. And to take advantage of that act of "whatever you want to call it"- given what they did, it's REALLY close to treason by a pretty simple definition.

When the word's "high level" and "sensitive" are used, it easily can be seen as an aggressive move from one government against another. And getting that information is illegal, to a point that had any US citizen helped get that information, it would be treason.

 

[Drew S.]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

You must be reading a different set of e-mails that I've heard. Here's an annotation from NPR of the e-mails- here-http://www.npr.org/2017/07/11/536670194/donald-trump-jr-s-emails-about-meeting-with-russian-lawyer-annotated

From Goldstone to don Jr:


That hardly seems like the information is a waste of time- in fact, it appears that there's some very high level and probably illegally gotten documents. And this is the e-mail that jr got to entice him to the meeting.

Here's another e-mail, making it pretty darned clear WHO jr was going to meet:



And if there's any question about how much jr knew, and was in on the meeting- there's a whole list of other e-mails, but here's the one spelling out who would be at the meeting, from jr



It's pretty hard to come up with a "duped" idea based on the e-mail chain, just as it's pretty hard to downplay what the information is going to be- it's pretty clear this was sensitive and very high level information that not an ordinary person can come up with, and jr was clearly told that.

If you want to say this is nothing, where a business partner in Russia worked with the russian government to get information to help the don campaign with sensitive information that could have only come from the government, well, go for it, commrade.

At this point, it's hard to look at you as anything different than someone who has the intention of taking our government down.

Read this story before you go any further: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-russia-email-candidacy.html

In the last dozen paragraphs they have quotes from the English guy saying the meeting was a complete waste of time. He obviously could be lying, but that is the story for now.

 

[GrinCDXX]

Read this story before you go any further: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-russia-email-candidacy.html

In the last dozen paragraphs they have quotes from the English guy saying the meeting was a complete waste of time. He obviously could be lying, but that is the story for now.

No, that's what you would like the story to be. The real story is that the Trump campaign took a meeting thinking they were going to get damaging information on Clinton from the Russian government. This isn't hard.

 

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

Read this story before you go any further: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-russia-email-candidacy.html

In the last dozen paragraphs they have quotes from the English guy saying the meeting was a complete waste of time. He obviously could be lying, but that is the story for now.

You do realize that what you are reading is a contemporary interview of Goldstone, right?

Whereas a year ago, he e-mailed jr claiming the information was "high level" and "sensitive".

So recently, when we find out he arranged a meeting between russians and members of the don campaign, he denies that it was important, when a year ago, he said it was sensitive and high level. Given YOUR level of back tracking and excuse making, it's pretty natural that we expect him to do the same.

And this is a guy who has made money off of don. So a conspiracy expert as yourself should easily come up with the "excuse" line at this point.

None the less, the actual content of the information and meeting is moot. The fact that jr knew he who he was meeting, and what he expected to get is the important part. His plans to use information gotten illegally by another government for his own benefit is pretty clear.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

Joe Scarborough is quitting the Republican Party.

 

[rufus]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

I wasn't saying me specifically. I think we're getting close to time to move on unless something big comes out though.

Like this isn't big. The son of the Republican nominee, meeting at Trump Tower with a Kremlin lawyer to get dirt on Hillary Clinton, on the exact same day his father, Priebus, and who knows who else are having a meeting at Trump Tower to discuss what attack strategies they can use against Hillary Clinton.

I'm sure it's all just a yuge coincidence.

 

[rufus]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

Again, Trump & Co didn't arrange the meeting. They were sought out with the information.

A good friend of Don Sr, who worked with him on the Miss Universe pageant, arranged the meeting between the Russian lawyer and Don Jr.

 

[rufus]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

Well, there is the idea that don's guys went into the meeting with the idea of helping out the russian interest of making don president. And given the number of meetings that appear to have covered sanctions before don was president- there's a pretty decent trail of giving aid to the russians.

While I won't say treason right now, at this point, it would not surprise me what so ever.

One is true by default of running for President, and 2b looks highly likely at this point. WE (the public) don't have full 2b evidence, true.

But, if it turns out that this information sharing was all about getting Trump elected in order for the quid pro quo to overturn sanctions against the Russian government......................

That's some pretty major aid and comfort.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

IMHO, that remains to be interpreted. Given that Russia has made a pretty strong effort to intervene into our election, hence our governmental system, it's a pretty short distance between a nominal foe and an enemy of the US. What Russia did was not an act of peace what so ever. And to take advantage of that act of "whatever you want to call it"- given what they did, it's REALLY close to treason by a pretty simple definition.

When the word's "high level" and "sensitive" are used, it easily can be seen as an aggressive move from one government against another. And getting that information is illegal, to a point that had any US citizen helped get that information, it would be treason.

But, if it turns out that this information sharing was all about getting Trump elected in order for the quid pro quo to overturn sanctions against the Russian government......................

That's some pretty major aid and comfort.

You're focusing on the aid and comfort portion and ignoring that the aid and comfort must be to the government's enemies. There is legal precedent basically limiting who an enemy is to those who the United States has formally declared war against. Moreover, the aid and comfort subelement is generally not even applicable during peacetime. In short, legally speaking, helping Russia is not a treasonous act. As I said before, it could very well be (likely is) a violation of other criminal laws, but it is not treason.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

Colbert is killing it tonight. The trombone joke just about made me go hypoxic.

The chalkboard! You could see it a million miles away but it was still brilliant.