Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

[Sean Pickett]

I came across a link to an <A href=http://host.madison.com/sports/college/hockey/article_dfb715ca-4494-11e0-9f0a-001cc4c03286.html>article</a> on Madison.com in the “PSU already recruiting?” thread about Penn State being interested in Mark Johnson, presumably for the men’s program. That would certainly have a major impact on the Badgers if he was offered and took the job.

The article also states, “While the women's program at Penn State is expected to be absorbed into an established eastern league — either the Eastern Collegiate Athletic Conference or the Hockey East Association”. I hadn’t heard anything about this possibility before and I’m not sure where the writer got this information from. The ECAC is currently a twelve school league with all twelve schools having both men’s and women’s teams and I don’t see them adding Penn State to just the women’s league. Hockey East has already allowed Connecticut to join the women’s team, but I don’t think it is likely that they will invite Penn State to join. The league has clearly shown in the past that they are interested in maintaining a small footprint and Penn State would appear to be outside that footprint.

Sean

 

[dave1381]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I also wonder what impact men's conference realignment will have on the women. Possibly none since we're two teams short of a Big Ten conference. But who knows.

 

[D2D]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I also wonder what impact men's conference realignment will have on the women. Possibly none since we're two teams short of a Big Ten conference. But who knows.

Buried in the article was the news that Michigan State's Rick Comley is resigning at the end of the season. I wonder if this might increase the possibility that Michigan State might start a women's program, possibly sooner than they otherwise would have?

 

[dave1381]

Buried in the article was the news that Michigan State's Rick Comley is resigning at the end of the season. I wonder if this might increase the possibility that Michigan State might start a women's program, possibly sooner than they otherwise would have?

You also wonder if a men's Big Ten hockey conference could put pressure on UMich and MSU to add women's hockey.

 

[row43seat43]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

You also wonder if a men's Big Ten hockey conference could put pressure on UMich and MSU to add women's hockey.

Somebody, should pressure on the them. The amount of girls that come out of Michigan playing Hockey it's a shame! Hockeytown my _ss!!! A bunch of male ___. Never mind

 

[UCONN FAN]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

AMEN Brother! (or sister) It is a shame that Michigan, Denver etc. don't have women's hockey. Hearing Notre Dame is close, but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Rhett]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

The article also states, “While the women's program at Penn State is expected to be absorbed into an established eastern league — either the Eastern Collegiate Athletic Conference or the Hockey East Association”. I hadn’t heard anything about this possibility before and I’m not sure where the writer got this information from. The ECAC is currently a twelve school league with all twelve schools having both men’s and women’s teams and I don’t see them adding Penn State to just the women’s league. Hockey East has already allowed Connecticut to join the women’s team, but I don’t think it is likely that they will invite Penn State to join. The league has clearly shown in the past that they are interested in maintaining a small footprint and Penn State would appear to be outside that footprint.

Sean

It seems like the CHA should make a pretty strong push to get them. It would provide them with the most favorable travel situation of any existing conference, with Penn State barely stretching the existing footprint. It would provide a shorter route to the national tournament, since the 6th team will likely earn them an autobid. They can use the presence of Syracuse to sell it as a 'major' conference to the neophytes who only recognize the jerseys that play high level football and hoops. Without a Big Ten or CCHA, it just seems like a perfect fit.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

The last time we brought up the possibility of OSU re-considering the CHA we experienced some wrath on this board, but if Penn State were to join that would be much a more stable conference with 7 teams, 3 BCS schools, and 1 established national contender. I can understand why OSU turned back on the move when Findlay dropped its program and the CHA would've stuck without an autobid for another several years, but that reason no longer seems to be valid (and back then the tourney was just expanding and Mercyhurst was just a perennial top 10 team that could never make the Frozen Four). An expanded CHA could be as much of a hodgepodge of BCS schools and smaller schools as the current CCHA.

Ohio State moving to the CHA would improve the average level of both the WCHA and CHA

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

The last time we brought up the possibility of OSU re-considering the CHA we experienced some wrath on this board, but if Penn State were to join that would be much a more stable conference with 7 teams, 3 BCS schools, and 1 established national contender. I can understand why OSU turned back on the move when Findlay dropped its program and the CHA would've stuck without an autobid for another several years, but that reason no longer seems to be valid (and back then the tourney was just expanding and Mercyhurst was just a perennial top 10 team that could never make the Frozen Four). An expanded CHA could be as much of a hodgepodge of BCS schools and smaller schools as the current CCHA.

Should Cornell leave the ECAC and join the CHA? It's a decent geographic fit, and it arguably would serve the greater good.

The answer is of course not. Cornell has longstanding ties to the ECAC schools. Other things being equal, conference membership should be stable, not constantly changing.

Ohio State's ties to the Women's WCHA only go back 11 years. But we are charter members and it's been our conference since Day 1. And the connection with Minnesota and Wisconsin goes back generations in the various Big 10 sports.

Also, the possible creation of a Women's BTHC is an additional complication. I've posted this previously, but I'm not at all sure that we'd be doing the CHA any favors by simply "passing through" for a few years. If it was done in lock step with Penn State, the damage would be doubled at the time of departure.

The addition of Penn State does change the landscape, and it's certainly worth discussing that. But I start out with the presumption that conference loyalty is important, and changes should be made only under compelling circumstances.

Ohio State moving to the CHA would improve the average level of both the WCHA and CHA

I'm not seriously offended, but that's a pretty disrespectful comment. As far as I know I had nothing to do with the earlier thread you mention. But if that was the attitude taken by those proposing a change, then a bit of wrath was an appropriate response.

Good humor or no, the comment isn't even true. If you look at the 11 history of our league as a whole, our record likely puts us as #4 of 8. That's not a basis for woofing, but we certainly fit in as average, or just slightly above.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Good humor or no, the comment isn't even true. If you look at the 11 history of our league as a whole, our record likely puts us as #4 of 8. That's not a basis for woofing, but we certainly fit in as average, or just slightly above.

Yes, yes, over the long run you're right. But it is true that OSU has averaged a 6th place conference finish the last three years, so it's not like my joke had no basis whatsoever. I do feel OSU has improved overall even though their average finish has declined.

 

[Hux]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Ohio State's ties to the Women's WCHA only go back 11 years. But we are charter members and it's been our conference since Day 1. And the connection with Minnesota and Wisconsin goes back generations in the various Big 10 sports.

Also, the possible creation of a Women's BTHC is an additional complication. I've posted this previously, but I'm not at all sure that we'd be doing the CHA any favors by simply "passing through" for a few years. If it was done in lock step with Penn State, the damage would be doubled at the time of departure.

The addition of Penn State does change the landscape, and it's certainly worth discussing that. But I start out with the presumption that conference loyalty is important, and changes should be made only under compelling circumstances.

We discussed this before, but it is worth repeating. The "Big Ten" teams could be spread throughout conferences, and still have a Big Ten champion. All it takes is a schedule of games against other Big Ten teams, as the Ivy League does within the ECAC.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Yes, yes, over the long run you're right. But it is true that OSU has averaged a 6th place conference finish the last three years, so it's not like my joke had no basis whatsoever. I do feel OSU has improved overall even though their average finish has declined.

I understand the basis of the joke. I'll even allow that it's kind of funny, if understood as a lighthearted variation of a very old joke. It's actually the moldy oldie I have an issue with. Hence my grumpy reply.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

We discussed this before, but it is worth repeating. The "Big Ten" teams could be spread throughout conferences, and still have a Big Ten champion. All it takes is a schedule of games against other Big Ten teams, as the Ivy League does within the ECAC.

A perfectly appropriate comment, though hardly a new thought. Although OSU wasn't included, the other Big Ten Mens' Teams did this when all 4 were members of the original WCHA. (Pre-1981) The BT College Hockey Showcase served something of the same function during its run.

Trouble is, the argument boils down to a reason why being in the CHA "wouldn't be so bad." It certainly isn't an incentive to make a change.

I like the league we're in. I feel loyalty to it. Conversely, I'm not tempted by the CHA.

I truly mean no disrespect by that. Non-conference games with CHA teams should be scheduled, if the those teams feel the games are mutually beneficial. Helping the CHA teams prosper is a good thing; everyone including OSU should do their share. But this stops well short of an obligation to abandon our current conference mates.

Obviously it's just a rhetorical question, but I repeat: If this is such a tempting opportunity, why doesn't Cornell make the jump? Or for that matter Harvard? After all, you said it yourself -- teams can still compete for the Ivy League title while members of another league.

EDIT: This thread should focus on Penn State. OSU's situation should be a side issue, at most. PSU does have incentives to consider the CHA. Playing as an independent for a time might also be an option. I would hope the conversation would move in that direction.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Obviously it's just a rhetorical question, but I repeat: If this is such a tempting opportunity, why doesn't Cornell make the jump? Or for that matter Harvard? After all, you said it yourself -- teams can still compete for the Ivy League title while members of another league.

This is a poor analogy. Cornell and Harvard have long and deep ties to the Ivy League in all sports and as the Ivy League sponsors hockey it is highly unlikely that they could just up and leave the Ivy League in just women’s hockey. Ohio State, on the other hand, is only tied to the WCHA in women’s hockey.

Sean

 

[ARM]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

This is a poor analogy. Cornell and Harvard have long and deep ties to the Ivy League in all sports and as the Ivy League sponsors hockey it is highly unlikely that they could just up and leave the Ivy League in just women’s hockey. Ohio State, on the other hand, is only tied to the WCHA in women’s hockey.

Sean

Even if you don't like the analogy, the overall point remains. Why bust up a successful 8-team league when the sport has other less prosperous conferences that are for some reason viewed as untouchable. Given the current number of D-I teams, the ECAC seems to be too large. Why don't Clarkson and St. Lawrence leave? They could have rivalries with Syracuse and Niagara. Or Union -- they are hardly flourishing in their current arrangement. Obviously none of these schools are obligated to make a move if they like where they are; by the same logic, neither is tOSU.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I would think that Penn State would fit well into the CHA. That would get them up to 6 teams, enough for an autobid (which would probably go to Mercyhurst anyway, but that's beside the point). With the ECAC, it's just about a perfect mirror of the men's league, which is why it's nice as is.

Plus, you're never going to separate the ivies. They'll break off and form their own hockey conference before they ever go to different leagues.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

EDIT: This thread should focus on Penn State. OSU's situation should be a side issue, at most. PSU does have incentives to consider the CHA. Playing as an independent for a time might also be an option. I would hope the conversation would move in that direction.

I disagree, which is why I titled the thread <B>Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey</B>. I want us to discuss all the implications of PSU starting a women’s DI program. League realignment is a major part of that impact. Whether it is OSU joining the CHA with PSU, the forming of a women’s Big Ten Hockey Conference (WBTHC), or other things I haven't thought.

Joining the CHA along with PSU would give OSU a much more realistic chance to build a winning program, win league regular season and tournament titles and make the NCAA tournament. The same is true for the other WCHA teams, but OSU is the one best located to join the CHA.

Or maybe the Big Ten forms a WBTHC with the four women’s programs. If so, do they play in a 4 team league without an autobid? Would they need an autobid? Or would they invite two other teams to join to reach the NCAA 6 team minimum for an autobid? If so what teams would they invite? Would those teams join a WBTHC? Or as mentioned already, would they try and persuade Michigan and Michigan State (or other Big Ten schools) to start women’s programs?

Sean

 

[ARM]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Joining the CHA along with PSU would give OSU a much more realistic chance to build a winning program, win league regular season and tournament titles and make the NCAA tournament.

That's not why teams form leagues. They do so in the hopes of finding good competition that they can promote to fans and student athletes. Today, the CHA has one program that would be attractive to Penn St. and Ohio St. -- Syracuse. Mercyhurst is recognizable only to the sport's insiders. If Penn St. had an open invite to join any existing conference, I'm sure that their first pick wouldn't be the CHA.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

This is a poor analogy. Cornell and Harvard have long and deep ties to the Ivy League in all sports and as the Ivy League sponsors hockey it is highly unlikely that they could just up and leave the Ivy League in just women�s hockey. Ohio State, on the other hand, is only tied to the WCHA in women�s hockey.

Sean

You're misreading my posts. Of course Cornell and Harvard would never leave the Ivy League in any sport, although I didn't suggest that. But I'm sure we agree that they also will never leave ECAC Women's Hockey for the CHA.

If I really have to spell it out: I'm not claiming the situations are the identical. I'm simply asking people to wake up. If you want to put it in rhetorical terms, I'm exaggerating to make a point. The idea that Cornell or Harvard would join the CHA is indeed ludicrous. The status quo is infinitely more attractive than the potential shift. For Ohio State, it's merely a bad deal -- IMHO. And if I'm right, that move isn't happening either.

Could I be persuaded to change my mind? Maybe. But anyone wanting a school to consider changing conferences has the burden of production. Tell me why moving is a good deal for my school. You'd still have a high mountain to climb, but at least there would be something to talk about.

Too often in realignment conversations outsiders move schools around like chess pieces, barely giving a passing thought to what's in the self-interest of the target school. It's a naive approach, doomed to failure.

Note that doing something for the benefit of the larger community is by no means out of the question. But the deal should be at least break even for the school on the receiving end of the sales pitch.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I disagree, which is why I titled the thread <B>Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey</B>. I want us to discuss all the implications of PSU starting a women’s DI program. League realignment is a major part of that impact. Whether it is OSU joining the CHA with PSU, the forming of a women’s Big Ten Hockey Conference (WBTHC), or other things I haven't thought.

Fair enough. I felt like I was hijacking the thread. I'll stop feeling guilty.