What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

  • Brianna Decker - junior forward - Univ. of Wisconsin - 37GP, 36G-42A--78 Pts

    Votes: 25 40.3%
  • Jocelyne Lamoureux - junior forward - Univ. of North Dakota - 36GP, 34G-48A--82 Pts

    Votes: 24 38.7%
  • Florence Schelling - senior goaltender - Northeastern Univ. - 20-6-4 record, 1.42 GAA, .950 sv%

    Votes: 13 21.0%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed .
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

While every argument in favor of JLam is true, it's not a definitive case for JLam. It just means we have an apples-to-oranges kind of comparison to resolve. It's not straightforward to evaluate how each would do with each other's teammates.

Looking at stats like ppg against top teams has predictive value in the voting outcome, not because voters look directly at these numbers -- it's because a lot of coaches vote by looking both at total stats to narrow the field, and then thinking, which of these players was the greatest challenge for me to shut down. Now sure, the challenge of shutting down Decker is amplified by the strength of her teammates, but the fact she won WCHA POTY tells me the opposing coaches thought she was a greater challenge than the Lams, controlling for the strength of teammates. Now I agree northhockey has a good point that JLam could've won this award with less success than Decker against the top teams -- because you need to consider JLams academics and Decker's talented teammates -- but I expect Decker's advantages are too large for JLam to overcome.

The kind of success Decker had against the best teams isn't inevitable. There have been plenty of elite players with elite linemates who simply weren't as successful. I look back at 06-07 for example, which is usually regarded as one of the toughest Kaz decisions. Sara Bauer was almost totally shut down by UMD during the regular season. Julie Chu was more successful than Bauer against top opponents (at least before the postseason), and that's a big part of why she won -- she had more total points and more consistency. But neither had success anywhere close to Decker & Prevost this year. So that's one reason I don't believe it's inevitable JLam would've been just as successful as Decker if the two were to swap places.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

granddaddyscout -- I actually don't think the H2H comparison between JLam & Decker is as helpful since Wisconsin is simply a much better defensive team than UND. Comparisons against top common opponents, namely UMD & Minnesota, are what I imagine mattered the most.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

granddaddyscout -- I actually don't think the H2H comparison between JLam & Decker is as helpful since Wisconsin is simply a much better defensive team than UND. Comparisons against top common opponents, namely UMD & Minnesota, are what I imagine mattered the most.

The same arguements seem to apply when looking at common opponants though. All of these things play a role in the evaluation, but in my opinion the H2H shows quite a bit as well. The plus/minus in this case is quite telling I believe +10 versus -4 isn't something that can be dismissed just because UW is a better team.
 
Last edited:
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

The same arguements seem to apply when looking at common opponants though.
Agree, I wasn't disputing that. I was just saying you need to look at it.
All of these things play a role in the evaluation, but in my opinion the H2H shows quite a bit as well. The plus/minus in this case is quite telling I believe +10 versus -4 isn't something that can be dismissed just because UW is a better team.
I agree that's most likely correct, and when you augment that with the common opponent comparison, it becomes a pretty strong argument in support of Decker. If the H2H went one way and the top common opponents went the other way, then I would wonder, but that's not the case. I was just strengthening your argument, that's all.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

+10 probably isn't a great +/- when you play for a team as strong as Wisconsin.

Right, exactly, Decker's +10 in four games against UND really isn't that great for a strong team like Wisconsin.

In the same four games, Prevost & Brooke Ammerman were +7. That's truly the epitome of mediocrity by Madison standards.

And then Hilary Knight was a +2. She probably shouldn't have been dressing, let alone getting ice time.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

Right, exactly, Decker's +10 in four games against UND really isn't that great for a strong team like Wisconsin. In the same four games, Prevost & Brooke Ammerman were +7. That's truly the epitome of mediocrity by Madison standards.
And then Hilary Knight was a +2. She probably shouldn't have been dressing, let alone getting ice time.

Chuckle: Good laugh with my coffee this AM. Great numbers when the last thing opposing coaches say out of the locker room is "don't let Deckers' line beat us".
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

Johnston is starting to look like one of those players who gets skipped by the Kaz process and goes on to win the Frozen Four MVP.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

hmmmmm....no vote...only see 1 player there that is mmmmmaybe close to top 3 PK and wouldn't get my vote
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

right, exactly, decker's +10 in four games against und really isn't that great for a strong team like wisconsin.

In the same four games, prevost & brooke ammerman were +7. That's truly the epitome of mediocrity by madison standards.

And then hilary knight was a +2. She probably shouldn't have been dressing, let alone getting ice time.

rotflmao. :d
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

Really surprised by the finalists.

I was at Ridder on Saturday and not once did I notice the North Dakota player.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

Well, let's see. North Dakota's Kaz candidate finished at -2 with zero points on zero goals and zero assists, four shots and one penalty. Wisconsin's Kaz candidate...what's her name, Decker?...ended at +1 with two points on one goal and one assist, ten shots and no penalties. And I'm pretty sure that's with Mercyhurst doing their best to contain her.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012 - Top Three

Really surprised by the finalists.

I was at Ridder on Saturday and not once did I notice the North Dakota player.
So what finalist would you have chosen? I get it, the Lams haven't been able to get it done against the best teams, like Johnston or Decker have alongside more talented teammates. Yes, that's why JLam's not going to win the award but I'm not sure how you can say the nation's leading scorer and likely the top academic candidate is some kind of mistake finalist.
 
Back
Top