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Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

I really could care less about car numbers. I don't care about them in other series so I am going to say I won't care about them in F1.

I don't like the idea of spending caps. I think all that those do is make everyone in the league, or in this case F1, become mediocre. I can understand the want to help the mid and backmarker teams compete with the big boys. I just think the product suffers as a result.

For example, I stopped watching the NFL years and years ago becuase of their cap. In my opinion all that has done is make 1-2 teams per season great, 1-2 awful, and the rest mediocre. I get it that most sports fans love the NFL, but for me it's watching a bunch of .500 teams slugging it out for 3 place. Boring. I fear the NHL will slowly morph into that as times goes on.

If the FIA feels they have to do something I am more in favor of a tax system much like the MLB.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

joecct said:
Saw on Fox Sports that F1 will award double points in the last race of the season.
BIG Whoop.
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That is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in quite some time. It devalues the rest of the season's results. Racing isn't and shouldn't be defined by how much drama can we inject into the series. Indycar has been fortunate that the last how many years the last race has meant something without gimmicks. The gaps between the teams and drivers in F1 is wide, and that the nature of the beast. I wonder in looking back in history what kind of impact double points would have had over the last 10 years.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

the car numbers thing I like, however...

double points for the season finale? the ****? if you're going to pull a gimmick then I feel your biggest "crown jewel" race should be the one w/double points, Monaco (but again, I don't like the idea of double points). F1 is F1, period. It's the peak of motorsports and it shouldn't need gimmicks for anything. Vettel wins by 45 seconds well those are the breaks, eh? The other teams are free to find or hire brilliant Adrian Newey's in development and maybe they also can win by a huge margin etc.

which leads to the spending cap...a part of me likes it in that it would be nice to see 4 teams vying for the title annually, however isn't that really up to them? What's keeping Force India from finding a huge money sponsor that would allow them to steal an Adrian Newey type?

and speaking of Newey...is this a possible reason why he may just leave altogether and go design boats? If they cap spending they pretty much cap engineering/r&d...part of F1's appeal has always been it's been the pinnacle of motorsport on the tech side. capping spending will inhibit some of that.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Got a better gimmick. Season winner is the driver that spent the least amount of time on the track. If you're a DNF, you get your time + avg lap time * # laps missed.

No more points. It's how fast you race. If you win Race #1 by 45 seconds, you have a 45 second lead over the field.

Just kidding, BTW....
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

solovsfett said:
and speaking of Newey...is this a possible reason why he may just leave altogether and go design boats? If they cap spending they pretty much cap engineering/r&d...part of F1's appeal has always been it's been the pinnacle of motorsport on the tech side. capping spending will inhibit some of that.
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I have to say, as an engineer, I do not agree with that. The spending cap will not stop creativitiy. It will stop development and testing of tiny, incremental items that barely have anything to do with anything.

Like the tech rules, the spending cap just puts an boundary of what creative engineers are allowed to do. If it capped what engineers could do, it would make the cars totally spec. Even there, there's room to be creative- see Indy, NASCAR, and aussie V8s- where teams are consistently the fastest, even with pretty identical cars.

Next year has probably the thickest rule set ever, and what I'm reading is that engineers are really strained how to understand the best way to approach it- not that they have no way, but the options are being given in a manner that there are many multiple solutions, none of which appears to be better than any other. That is where creative engineering comes from. IMHO, next year's cars will be way more creative and way more engineered than the current car.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

alfablue said:
I have to say, as an engineer, I do not agree with that. The spending cap will not stop creativitiy. It will stop development and testing of tiny, incremental items that barely have anything to do with anything.
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I'm also an engineer (mechanical) and while I do not work in the car industry, I use to work in an advanced R&D group for 8 years, and I kind of have to disagree with you here. A spending cap will not stop creativity but it most certainly will hamper development of those creative ideas. I know of no R&D (which basically is what F1 engineering is) that can have any hopes of developing a major advancement without serious amounts of cash. If anything I think a cap will curb spending on anything but incremental advances forward. When scrapped for cash I think that most teams will go the way of the safe conservative advancements.

If the FIA must implement a spending cap then I think they should open up the formula and let teams spend said money in any way they wish. For example, say Ferrari wants to spend its money on engines and KERS then great and RB wants to spend their money on aero then great. As long as the cars meet safety requirements then I am all for this. Since everyone has the same amount to spend then I think this is the way to go (within reason for safety concerns).
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

MattS said:
I'm also an engineer (mechanical) and while I do not work in the car industry, I use to work in an advanced R&D group for 8 years, and I kind of have to disagree with you here. A spending cap will not stop creativity but it most certainly will hamper development of those creative ideas. I know of no R&D (which basically is what F1 engineering is) that can have any hopes of developing a major advancement without serious amounts of cash. If anything I think a cap will curb spending on anything but incremental advances forward. When scrapped for cash I think that most teams will go the way of the safe conservative advancements.

If the FIA must implement a spending cap then I think they should open up the formula and let teams spend said money in any way they wish. For example, say Ferrari wants to spend its money on engines and KERS then great and RB wants to spend their money on aero then great. As long as the cars meet safety requirements then I am all for this. Since everyone has the same amount to spend then I think this is the way to go (within reason for safety concerns).
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It will hinder development as much as it will make engineers more creative in doing the development. I'm in R&D, and know what a massive budget cap does- and IMHO, our solutions are better and less expensive than our competitors.

Just pouring money at a problems doesn't solve it better, it just spends more money. Seen that a lot.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

alfablue said:
It will hinder development as much as it will make engineers more creative in doing the development. I'm in R&D, and know what a massive budget cap does- and IMHO, our solutions are better and less expensive than our competitors.

Just pouring money at a problems doesn't solve it better, it just spends more money. Seen that a lot.
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I can agree with simply throwing money at an issue doesn't solve it, but neither does trying to scrimp by on peanuts. Will just have to disagree on this issue.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

joecct said:
Got a better gimmick. Season winner is the driver that spent the least amount of time on the track. If you're a DNF, you get your time + avg lap time * # laps missed.

No more points. It's how fast you race. If you win Race #1 by 45 seconds, you have a 45 second lead over the field.

Just kidding, BTW....
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No, THAT IS AN AWESOME IDEA!!!!!!! It forces you to push constantly through the whole field, no backing down with a big lead to save the engine/car. The only drawback is it would blow the casual fan's mind, but who cares. I'm all in on this one.

And it's no a gimmick at all. It's pure speed that determines the winner.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

MattS said:
I can agree with simply throwing money at an issue doesn't solve it, but neither does trying to scrimp by on peanuts. Will just have to disagree on this issue.
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No matter which side of this arguement is correct, I firmly believe the smart engineers will almost always win no matter how much money they are allowed to spend. Like alfablue, just look at NASCAR. The most limited rules in racing, and the top teams with the top engineers always win. Same in Indycar.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Spending cap....I'm note sure how I feel about it, but how does the FIA enforce that?

Indy going to have aero kits in 2015 by the engine folks, which I like. The press release says it will make the cars looks more unique, which won't be the case once one design is deemed better, then the other will simply copy it. I just think they are overselling the impact.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Timothy A said:
Spending cap....I'm note sure how I feel about it, but how does the FIA enforce that?
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They won't be able to. Which is why I always ignore it whenever the FIA brings it up.

Indy going to have aero kits in 2015 by the engine folks, which I like. The press release says it will make the cars looks more unique, which won't be the case once one design is deemed better, then the other will simply copy it. I just think they are overselling the impact.
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They are overselling the impact, but hopefully they will at least make the cars look less ugly than they are now. Not that it matters to me. I gave up on Indycar years ago. It's become a useless entity as far as I'm concerned.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

joecct said:
Got a better gimmick. Season winner is the driver that spent the least amount of time on the track. If you're a DNF, you get your time + avg lap time * # laps missed.

No more points. It's how fast you race. If you win Race #1 by 45 seconds, you have a 45 second lead over the field.

Just kidding, BTW....
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Change the DNF rules or else you'll have someone come hard out of the gate for the first two laps, set world-record pace then develop a "mystery problem." Also discourages someone from fixing a mechanical issue in the middle of the race and going back out to finish as many laps as possible.

What if we went with...
on the lead lap: your time
laps back: your time + average lap time * # of laps down
DNF: time of last person on lead lap + average lap time * # of laps left

PS I also realize it's not realistic, but it's still better than double points.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Russell Jaslow said:
No matter which side of this arguement is correct, I firmly believe the smart engineers will almost always win no matter how much money they are allowed to spend. Like alfablue, just look at NASCAR. The most limited rules in racing, and the top teams with the top engineers always win. Same in Indycar.
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Oh I agree with you about smart engineers will win no matter how much money is spent. I just disagree that having little money makes one inovative.

Russell Jaslow said:
They are overselling the impact, but hopefully they will at least make the cars look less ugly than they are now. Not that it matters to me. I gave up on Indycar years ago. It's become a useless entity as far as I'm concerned.
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I tend to think you are correct about the impact of aero kits but they have to keep trying things if it is to survive.

I finally gave up on Indycar this season. I finally figured out I was spending more time *****ing about the series than I did actually enjoying watching the races.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

MattS said:
Oh I agree with you about smart engineers will win no matter how much money is spent. I just disagree that having little money makes one inovative.
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Why do you think the limits will be that low? It's not as if they would set the limits to be below Caterham and Maruissa- but more likely to split the difference, or maybe be on the high end of Force India/Renault, I mean Lotus/Williams, or so.

Oh, and having little money AND a big goal does make people very, very innovative. Look at amateur racing- even with no real budgets, you see some great cars in English hill climbing, or the SCCA Sports Racers- there's a lot of cool stuff that happens without money. If the goal is big enough, innovation will happen.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

alfablue said:
Why do you think the limits will be that low? It's not as if they would set the limits to be below Caterham and Maruissa- but more likely to split the difference, or maybe be on the high end of Force India/Renault, I mean Lotus/Williams, or so.
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I don't know what the real limit will be if one is ever set. I just do not like it because F1 is suppose to be the pinnacle of racing and I do not agree with artifical spending limits (I wrote about my dislike earlier).

I don't believe money has anything to do with a person's ability to be creative or innovative. That is a skill one either has or does not and it's up to said person to use that skill to it's fullest. I do believe that money has a great deal to do with development of said creativity especially at the level F1 is at.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

Bummed to read about Schumi. I heard there will be an update press conference at 5 am ET tomorrow. I hope there will be good news.
 
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2013...year of the driver swap!

MattS said:
Bummed to read about Schumi. I heard there will be an update press conference at 5 am ET tomorrow. I hope there will be good news.
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What a downer, for sure. Hopefully the Lord's will will be what we here on earth want, a recovery.
 
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