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O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Didn't OJ validate that?

This is a hockey site. If you have any evidence that the Simpson jury was bribed you should quickly make it available to the proper [non-hockey] authorities. You would also gratify those who believe that court decisions go to the highest bidder - at least when decisions conflict with their beliefs.
 
ummm, the antitrust exemptions are not "won in court" they are legislated.... and the NCAA does not have such an exemption.

then you ask ME how much the kid is worth... I am not the one who determined that the kid is worth absolutely NOTHING... the NCAA determined that as a monopolist, and according to the Sherman Act, that is not ok (at least that is the O'Bannon argument).

I am not just spewing my opinion, I am telling you what the case is about.

you respond with opinion and fact that absolutely not based in antitrust law

There are plenty of court precedents (the first antitrust court challenge to baseball was all the way back in 1922), so you are quite wrong.

And the NCAA didn't decide the kids are worth nothing. The leagues that set a minimum age requirement on their drafts did that. Not the NCAA.

And to suggest (sounds like you are) that the NCAA is giving these kids "nothing" is utterly laughable and makes you look completely foolish.

Answer me this. If these kids are getting "nothing" from the NCAA, then why play in the NCAA???
 
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Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

ummm, the antitrust exemptions are not "won in court" they are legislated.... and the NCAA does not have such an exemption.

then you ask ME how much the kid is worth... I am not the one who determined that the kid is worth absolutely NOTHING... the NCAA determined that as a monopolist, and according to the Sherman Act, that is not ok (at least that is the O'Bannon argument).

I am not just spewing my opinion, I am telling you what the case is about.

you respond with opinion and fact that absolutely not based in antitrust law


Just to keep things straight: Reason depends upon demonstrable facts, the law depends upon subjective opinions. And courts decide which cases qualify for exemptions. That's why a court is hearing O'Bannon's Case, and others like it
 
Just to keep things straight: Reason depends upon demonstrable facts, the law depends upon subjective opinions. And courts decide which cases qualify for exemptions. That's why a court is hearing O'Bannon's Case, and others like it

Court's are hearing O'Bannon's case, but if you think a monumental shift in anti-trust exemptions to sporting leagues is going to result from that suit, I hope you're prepared for disappointment. Those exemptions have long been upheld by the courts and is about as likely to be overturned as Roe vs Wade IMO.
 
There are plenty of court precedents (the first antitrust court challenge to baseball was all the way back in 1922), so you are quite wrong.

And the NCAA didn't decide the kids are worth nothing. The leagues that set a minimum age requirement on their drafts did that. Not the NCAA.

And to suggest (sounds like you are) that the NCAA is giving these kids "nothing" is utterly laughable and makes you look completely foolish.

Answer me this. If these kids are getting "nothing" from the NCAA, then why play in the NCAA???

What other realistic option do the kids have? I doubt a lot of them choose it because they want to.

I have no idea on this but does anyone know how good most kids get taken care of who don't make it professionally? Do alumni set them up with sweet jobs or something like that? It probably varies by program but something I've always wondered about.
 
Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Randy teenaged boys are not known for their astute decision-making or for following the advice of their elders. That may be why they are legally minors. Current "amateur" college athletic policies sanction pitting the COORDINATED resources of the multibillion dollar NCAA and college athletic programs against the sophistication and bargaining resources of legal minors. Does the NCAA/college athletics cartel have an unfair advantage? Does this cartel promote the best interests of these athlete-minors?
 
What other realistic option do the kids have? I doubt a lot of them choose it because they want to.

I have no idea on this but does anyone know how good most kids get taken care of who don't make it professionally? Do alumni set them up with sweet jobs or something like that? It probably varies by program but something I've always wondered about.

They don't have a ton of options, which is why their value is essentially nothing (or very little). That was part of my point.

However, I will disagree with the sentiment that they only choose that option because it's the only one available. Despite these kids having little to no financial value outside the NCAA, the NCAA gives them a free education, free room and board, books, access to world-class training facilities for free, access to world-class coaching, exposure of playing in arguably the most premier amateur league in the world, etc...

The NCAA could make them pay their way thru school while they play because kids really do have little other options in this country to play at a high level before turning pro, but instead give them access to schools a lot of kids not in their position cannot dream of getting into. And they don't charge them a dime for that education.

If this is getting exploited, I'd love to have an NCAA school "exploit" my kids someday.
 
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Randy teenaged boys are not known for their astute decision-making or for following the advice of their elders. That may be why they are legally minors. Current "amateur" college athletic policies sanction pitting the COORDINATED resources of the multibillion dollar NCAA and college athletic programs against the sophistication and bargaining resources of legal minors. Does the NCAA/college athletics cartel have an unfair advantage? Does this cartel promote the best interests of these athlete-minors?


Again with the citing of revenues and mentioning nothing of expenses. And again, your comment will be ignored because of that.

88% of NCAA programs operate at a loss. A stat you're trying hard to ignore because of how inconvenient it is to your argument.
 
Again with the citing of revenues and mentioning nothing of expenses. And again, your comment will be ignored because of that.

88% of NCAA programs operate at a loss. A stat you're trying hard to ignore because of how inconvenient it is to your argument.

How do revenues and expenses get counted? I would be absolutely shocked if it isn't done in a maner that produces the result the NCAA wants. I'll give one example, scholarships. Do you value them at full retail or what the average student pays? I'm sure you get very different results depending on the method.
 
Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Again with the citing of revenues and mentioning nothing of expenses. And again, your comment will be ignored because of that.

88% of NCAA programs operate at a loss. A stat you're trying hard to ignore because of how inconvenient it is to your argument.
This guy posts a lot for as much as he hates college hockey.
 
How do revenues and expenses get counted? I would be absolutely shocked if it isn't done in a maner that produces the result the NCAA wants. I'll give one example, scholarships. Do you value them at full retail or what the average student pays? I'm sure you get very different results depending on the method.

It's not even including scholarship expenses. There are plenty of other expenses required to make NCAA sports run and student athletes don't have to worry about any of them. not to mention, the majority of NCAA sports are non-revenue sports that only incur expenses or create much less revenue than expenses.
 
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They don't have a ton of options, which is why their value is essentially nothing (or very little). That was part of my point.

However, I will disagree with the sentiment that they only choose that option because it's the only one available. Despite these kids having little to no financial value outside the NCAA, the NCAA gives them a free education, free room and board, books, access to world-class training facilities for free, access to world-class coaching, exposure of playing in arguably the most premier amateur league in the world, etc...

The NCAA could make them pay their way thru school while they play because kids really do have little other options in this country to play at a high level before turning pro, but instead give them access to schools a lot of kids not in their position cannot dream of getting into. And they don't charge them a dime for that education.

If this is getting exploited, I'd love to have an NCAA school "exploit" my kids someday.
You have said some really stupid things in this thread, but this post takes the cake.
 
why do you think that a college's operating at a loss is at issue here?

the issue is simple, the NCAA dictates, in restraint of trade, how much a person may be compensated (by EA Sports) for something of value.


do us all a favor, stick to the issue in the O'Bannon case and answer this:

Does the NCAA contravene the Sherman Act when it tells all student athletes in the US, who compete at NCAA-affilliated schools, that they may receive absolutely no compensation from private companies for the use of their likenesses?

just focus on that one question. realize that how much scholarships cost are not relevant. realize that nobody is talking about classes, degrees, or Major Junior leagues.... just the issue that the NCAA forcloses private contracts between their athletes and private companies who would like to use the likenesses of the athletes.

I realize that you have absolutely no ability to read a Supreme Court opinion because of your prior answer telling us all that courts have given baseball an antitrust exemption, when that was not the holding at all, in the 1922 SCOTUS case, but see if you can focus on a single issue that is brought up in the case that we are talking about.

No, you answer me this because the answer will address your own question. If the NCAA program he played for lost money, would he be responsible for helping cover that loss? How about athletes who compete in non-revenue sports? Do they need to cover the expenses for the net loss of carrying their sport? .
 
Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

There are plenty of court precedents (the first antitrust court challenge to baseball was all the way back in 1922), so you are quite wrong.

True and one that reflects some correlation to this case is the 1984 Supreme Court case: NATIONAL COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION, Petitioner v. BOARD OF REGENTS OF the UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA and University of Georgia Athletic Association.

The NCAA had adopted a plan for the televising of college football games of it's member institutions for the 1982-1985 seasons. The plan essentially limited the total amount of televised intercollegiate football games and the number of games that any one college may televise, and no NCAA member was permitted to make any sale of television rights except in accordance with the plan. As a result of a dissatisfaction with the NCAA's control of the television market and "the plan", the College Football Association (CFA) was formed, consisting of major college football programs like Univ. of Oklahoma and Georgia. In 1979, the CFA began to negotiate a television contract for its members with the National Broadcasting Company (NBC), despite the ongoing NCAA negotiations with both ABC and CBS and the NCAA's ruling forbidding members to negotiate independent TV contracts. On learning of the CFA's negotiations, the NCAA issued an "Official Interpretation" stating that "The Association shall control all forms of televising of the intercollegiate football games of member institutions during the traditional football season..."

The CFA continued to work on a contract with NBC and came to an agreement on August 8, 1981. The NCAA swiftly stated that universities that participated in the CFA contract with NBC would face NCAA sanctions, not just in football, but in all other sports as well. Two member schools of the CFA, the University of Oklahoma and the University of Georgia filed suit in the United States District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma seeking an injunction to prevent the NCAA from taking action against CFA members.

The lawsuit went all the way to the Supreme Court. It was determined that the NCAA television plan and adjoining motion by the NCAA to sanction all sports at CFA member schools violated the Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts which are designed to prohibit actions by business entities that restrain open competition and trade. This determination by Supreme Court Judge John Stevens was perhaps the most seminal legal decision concerning college football ever, as it opened the door for college football conferences and teams like Notre Dame to ink the long term, multimillion dollar television contracts we see today in college sports.

However, although the Supreme Court upheld the judgment of the Court of Appeals that the NCAA violated Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts, all three Supreme Court justices set a legal precedent based upon the concept of "amateurism" by reaffirming the status of the NCAA as a regulatory body that exercises controls to promote, govern and maintain the amateur status of college athletics:

Justice John Stevens:

"...the NCAA seeks to market a particular brand of football—college football. The identification of this "product" with an academic tradition differentiates college football from and makes it more popular than professional sports to which it might otherwise be comparable, such as, for example, minor league baseball. In order to preserve the character and quality of the "product," athletes must not be paid, must be required to attend class, and the like. And the integrity of the "product" cannot be preserved except by mutual agreement; if an institution adopted such restrictions unilaterally, its effectiveness as a competitor on the playing field might soon be destroyed".

"The NCAA plays a critical role in the maintenance of a revered tradition of amateurism in college sports. There can be no question but that it needs ample latitude to play that role, or that the preservation of the student-athlete in higher education adds richness and diversity to intercollegiate athletics and is entirely consistent with the goals of the Sherman Act".

Justice Byron White, joined by Justice William Rehnquist dissented from the majority opinion of the court against the NCAA and stated regarding the NCAA's function:

"The NCAA, in short, 'exists primarily to enhance the contribution made by amateur athletic competition to the process of higher education as distinguished from realizing maximum return on it as an entertainment commodity.' Association for Intercollegiate Athletics for Women v. NCAA, 558 F.Supp. 487, 494 (DC 1983), a*******, 236 U.S.App.D.C. 311, 735 F.2d 577 (1984). One clear effect of most, if not all, of these [NCAA] regulations is to prevent institutions with competitively and economically successful programs from taking advantage of their success by expanding their programs, improving the quality of the product they offer, and increasing their sports revenues. Yet each of these regulations represents a desirable and legitimate attempt 'to keep university athletics from becoming professionalized to the extent that profit making objectives would overshadow educational objectives.' Kupec v. Atlantic Coast Conference, 399 F.Supp. 1377, 1380 (MDNC 1975).

Broadly read, these statements suggest that noneconomic values like the promotion of amateurism and fundamental educational objectives could not save the television plan from condemnation under the Sherman Act. But these statements were made in response to 'public interest' justifications proffered in defense of a ban on competitive bidding imposed by practitioners engaged in standard, profit-motivated commercial activities. The primarily noneconomic values pursued by educational institutions differ fundamentally from the 'overriding commercial purpose of the day-to-day activities' of engineers, lawyers, doctors, and businessmen, Gulland, Byrne, & Steinbach, Intercollegiate Athletics and Television Contracts: Beyond Economic Justifications in Antitrust Analysis of Agreements Among Colleges, 52 Ford.L.Rev. 717, 728 (1984), and neither Professional Engineers nor any other decision of this Court suggests that associations of nonprofit educational institutions must defend their self-regulatory restraints solely in terms of their competitive impact, without regard for the legitimate noneconomic values they promote.

Although the NCAA does attempt vigorously to enforce these restrictions, the vast potential for abuse suggests that measures, like the television plan, designed to limit the rewards of professionalism are fully consistent with, and essential to the attainment of, the NCAA's objectives. In short, "the restraints upon Oklahoma and Georgia and other colleges and universities with excellent football programs insure that they confine those programs within the principles of amateurism so that intercollegiate athletics supplement, rather than inhibit, educational achievement." 707 F.2d, at 1167 (Barrett, J., dissenting). The collateral consequences of the spreading of regional and national appearances among a number of schools are many: the television plan, like the ban on compensating student-athletes, may well encourage students to choose their schools, at least in part, on the basis of educational quality by reducing the perceived economic element of the choice, see Note, 87 Yale L.J., at 676, n. 106; it helps ensure the economic viability of athletic programs at a wide variety of schools with weaker football teams; and it "promotes competitive football among many and varied amateur teams nationwide." Gulland, Byrne, & Steinbach, supra, at 722 (footnote omitted). These important contributions, I believe, are sufficient to offset any minimal anticompetitive effects (violation of the Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts) of the television plan. For all of these reasons, I would reverse the judgment of the Court of Appeals."
- Legal Information Institute

Noteworthy is the fact that all student athletes in NCAA member institutions must sign a Student Athlete Name and Likeness Release that grants the respective university the right to publish, duplicate, print, or broadcast the student-athletes name, voice, photograph, likeness, or any other image for any purpose that the university or conference determines is in the best interests of the university or conference. Such uses must be consistent with all applicable NCAA rules and regulations, and the student-athlete acknowledges that neither the student-athlete nor his or her heirs shall be entitled to any compensation for the use of such name, voice, photograph or likeness or other image.

What O'Bannon and associates must essentially prove is that the NCAA and key member institutions colluded to deceive student-athletes by adopting the Student Athlete Name and Likeness Release policy to profit from their use of their names and likenesses. That will be extremely difficult to prove, especially considering the above legal precedent regarding the NCAA's function to preserve amateurism in college sports. However, for those cases where college athletes' images and likenesses have been used AFTER they no longer attend NCAA member institutions, I suspect the NCAA will opt for an out of court settlement.
 
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Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Early departure from college hockey seem to be increasing. These teenaged minors obviously have learned something which changed their minds about the market value of their hockey talent versus the benefits which colleges provide for their athletic efforts. This is probably the most valuable piece of learning gathered from their brief college careers, and one which the NCAA and colleges have yet to recognize.
 
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