O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

[SJHovey]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Then why are they compensated by the college with an education?

I know they aren't viewed as employees in the eyes of the law right now. But that is what they are fighting for and what I think they deserve.

Is every student who is granted a scholarship an employee? My kids got scholarships. They weren't athletic scholarships, but they spent the same way.

I don't see student athletes ever achieving "employment" status in the eyes of a court. Way too many issues, including things like overtime, unemployment, work comp, etc... To have an employment relationship it's pretty clear there has to be a mutual intent to enter into such a relationship, and I don't think that can ever be proven here. Has anyone ever listed their enrollment in college, and their participation on an athletic team, as past employment?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Wait..... What?

We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of millions of students in this country here. You're talking about a small number of professional players.

I thought we were talking about the small number of students who are scholarship athletes in revenue-producing sports. How is the total number of students relevant (and how are there "hundreds and hundreds of millions" in a coutry of only 300 million people???)

But the main problem with that analogy is that NHL players don't enter into a contract that doesn't guarantee them money. Student athletes willingly do. If you can get pro athletes to agree to that, by all means try.

That's not true at all - if the NHL really did try that, the DOJ would be on them for antitrust violations like white on rice. They're not allowed to collude on contract terms to their own benefit and the detriment of the players.

Answer me this, if there aren't benefits to playing without any prospect of getting paid, why do student athletes do it?

Your straw man is burning. Nobody is arguing that there are *no* benefits to being a scholarship athlete in a revenue sport. The argument is that the benefits fall disproportionally to the school and that the athletes are not able to freely negotiate their contracts because the market is unfairly restrained. And yes, the documents that athletes sign in order to participate in NCAA sports are definitely considered contracts - they are legal documents which assign rights and responsibilities to the signing parties. If a college athlete tried to profit by selling photographs of himself or endorsing products, he would/could be sued by the school/NCAA for breach of that contract.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

I thought we were talking about the small number of students who are scholarship athletes in revenue-producing sports. How is the total number of students relevant (and how are there "hundreds and hundreds of millions" in a coutry of only 300 million people???)

All students benefit from the money raised by college athletics in the form of lower tuition rates and top-shelf academic facilities, professors, etc.. Remove that revenue and tuition goes up or those resources diminish.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

That's not true at all - if the NHL really did try that, the DOJ would be on them for antitrust violations like white on rice. They're not allowed to collude on contract terms to their own benefit and the detriment of the players.

NHL players negotiate their contracts, NCAA players don't. That is the difference that continues to elude you.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

Your straw man is burning.

Stopped reading your last paragraph here. I have no time for childish rhetoric. If you want a response, clean it up.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Glad I could provide you with a laugh. Show me another business in this country where the employees have an obligation to pay for the facilities or cover shortfalls in revenue.

This challenge could easily be answered by a horde of educators and former union workers.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

NHL players negotiate their contracts, NCAA players don't. That is the difference that continues to elude you.

Absolutely true and precisely what the O'Bannon Case is all about.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Absolutely true and precisely what the O'Bannon Case is all about.

Exactly. The contracts are not negotiated only because the NCAA member schools collude and agree not to negotiate.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

Exactly. The contracts are not negotiated only because the NCAA member schools collude and agree not to negotiate.

The student athletes know full well what they are agreeing to and are not forced or coerced to play by any means.

I guess you'd prefer a relative few athletes get paid a moderately high sum of money at the expense of a far larger group of student athletes and students in general though. Because that is so much better, right?

I mean, how dare they only give these kids a first-class education for free, access to first-rate athletic and academic facilities and staff, and exposure to pro leagues playing in a top-end league against other first-class athletes.

And how dare these schools use that money to fund non-revenue sports to enrich the experience of other student athletes, provide first-rate academic and athletic facilities for all athletes and students, and provide highly qualified and successful teachers and coaches.

The travesty!!!

 

[LordofBrewtown]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

The student athletes know full well what they are agreeing to and are not forced or coerced to play by any means.

I guess you'd prefer a relative few athletes get paid a moderately high sum of money at the expense of a far larger group of student athletes and students in general though. Because that is so much better, right?

I mean, how dare they only give these kids a first-class education for free, access to first-rate athletic and academic facilities and staff, and exposure to pro leagues playing in a top-end league against other first-class athletes.

And how dare these schools use that money to fund non-revenue sports to enrich the experience of other student athletes, provide first-rate academic and athletic facilities for all athletes and students, and provide highly qualified and successful teachers and coaches.

The travesty!!!

It's not just the education. With training tables/dinner, the football & basketball players eat 100 times better than the average person, let alone the average student.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

It's not just the education. With training tables/dinner, the football & basketball players eat 100 times better than the average person, let alone the average student.

Yeah, I am sure the list of benefits these players receive is pretty long.

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130318/big-ten-jim-delany-ncaa-obannon/

Not that I am disagreeing with you.

It's important to reiterate here that Delany seems extremely confident based upon his 24 years as Big Ten Commissioner that if the plaintiffs prevail and a "pay for play" model is introduced; Big Ten presidents, faculties and B1Gs board of trustees would not participate. Which would inevitably lead to downsizing and eliminating some athletic programs, undermining Title IX objectives and disproportionately hinder athletic opportunities for all students regardless of gender.

Moreover, a significant financial burden to sustain athletic programs would be placed upon student fees and tuition increases, as well as increased efforts to garner donor support. Only 22 NCAA athletic depts. out of 120 made money in 2010. The other 98 were subsidized through Full Time Equivalent (FTE) student fees and tuition as well as donor contributions.

Table 1: Measures of the Athletics Tax, 2004-05 and 2008-09 Taxation Measure

.....................................................2004-05 2008-09 Growth
Subsidy per FTE Student .......................$395 ...$506 .....28.1%
Subsidy % of Tuition Revenue ................7.48% .8.33% ...11.4%
Subsidy % Total Core University Expenses 1.93% .2.12% ...9.84%

"For most colleges and universities in the United States, intercollegiate athletics is a losing financial proposition. The vast majority ICA departments do not break even and require subsidization from the institution as a whole. When schools are forced to heavily subsidize athletics, ICA serves to impose an “athletics tax” on other dimensions of the school. This tax has become increasingly worrisome due to the limited budget resources in the current economic climate."

- Center For College Affordability and Productivity

 

[Osorojo]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

College athlete recruits are young and relatively unsophisticated in financial matters. To this add the reluctance of college athletic programs to share their financial records and exploitation prospers. Colleges, especially public schools, should make their athletic program finances easily accessible: sports revenues: their amounts from each program and their disbursements - also the costs of athletic programs and the source of funds which support them. This would greatly aid young athletes to decide between college and professional sports participation.
The protective mantle of "education" can no longer shield the multi-billon dollar college sports industry from standard financial, labor, and monopoly regulation.

 

[scsutommyboy]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Wait..... What?

We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of millions of students in this country here. You're talking about a small number of professional players.

But the main problem with that analogy is that NHL players don't enter into a contract that doesn't guarantee them money. Student athletes willingly do. If you can get pro athletes to agree to that, by all means try.

Answer me this, if there aren't benefits to playing without any prospect of getting paid, why do student athletes do it?

I guess my opinion is if students don't like the agreement then don't play college sports. Nobody is making them. If O'bannon feels this way why doesn't he use his money and influence and get investors together and create a Major Junior Basketball league where they can pay the players? I ahve always wondered why this hasn't happened considering a high pecert of D1 basketball players never sniff graduation.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

I guess my opinion is if students don't like the agreement then don't play college sports. Nobody is making them. If O'bannon feels this way why doesn't he use his money and influence and get investors together and create a Major Junior Basketball league where they can pay the players? I ahve always wondered why this hasn't happened considering a high pecert of D1 basketball players never sniff graduation.

I agree 100%.

 

[Patman]

It's important to reiterate here that Delany seems extremely confident based upon his 24 years as Big Ten Commissioner that if the plaintiffs prevail and a "pay for play" model is introduced; Big Ten presidents, faculties and B1Gs board of trustees would not participate. Which would inevitably lead to downsizing and eliminating some athletic programs, undermining Title IX objectives and disproportionately hinder athletic opportunities for all students regardless of gender.

Moreover, a significant financial burden to sustain athletic programs would be placed upon student fees and tuition increases, as well as increased efforts to garner donor support. Only 22 NCAA athletic depts. out of 120 made money in 2010. The other 98 were subsidized through Full Time Equivalent (FTE) student fees and tuition as well as donor contributions.

Table 1: Measures of the Athletics Tax, 2004-05 and 2008-09 Taxation Measure

.....................................................2004-05 2008-09 Growth
Subsidy per FTE Student .......................$395 ...$506 .....28.1%
Subsidy % of Tuition Revenue ................7.48% .8.33% ...11.4%
Subsidy % Total Core University Expenses 1.93% .2.12% ...9.84%

- Center For College Affordability and Productivity

Now there's a thought... Player pay and its effect on title ix. If football player X gets 5K then does a female athlete or athletes have to be equally compensated... Title IX could care less why money is being paid out. Just that it is done so equivalently.

 

[HoosierBBall_GopherHockey]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

How many of you in here actually read the article from The Atlantic provided by Tipsy? Do so, then come back here and make your points on the argument either way. After reading that, my mind totally changed from what I had previously thought. It took me well over an hour to read, and re-read, to fully understand what the author was writing. Truly incredible piece of journalism that I am surprised I never read until now.

 

[HoosierBBall_GopherHockey]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

It also makes me realize just how important the CBA negotiations are in each sport and the age that athletes can enter the professional leagues. 1% of the athletes that make 90% of the profit for the NCAA/universities (as the article states) would probably forego getting their college education (even some of their high school education) if they could enter the NBA whenever they wanted, or NFL. The University of Kentucky has 5 one-and-done "student-athletes" in basketball every year. You really think they went to UK for the free education? They went there mainly because Calipari is one of the best coaches in the country at the NCAA level for placing players high in the NBA draft, meaning more $$$ for them after their "free education."

Seriously, for those of you who have not read the article, take the time to read it. Very enlightening. Even if it does not change your view on the overall situation, it will at least make you look less ignorant when you make some of your arguments here (that have been mercilessly refuted in the article).

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

It also makes me realize just how important the CBA negotiations are in each sport and the age that athletes can enter the professional leagues. 1% of the athletes that make 90% of the profit for the NCAA/universities (as the article states) would probably forego getting their college education (even some of their high school education) if they could enter the NBA whenever they wanted, or NFL. The University of Kentucky has 5 one-and-done "student-athletes" in basketball every year. You really think they went to UK for the free education? They went there mainly because Calipari is one of the best coaches in the country at the NCAA level for placing players high in the NBA draft, meaning more $$$ for them after their "free education."

Seriously, for those of you who have not read the article, take the time to read it. Very enlightening. Even if it does not change your view on the overall situation, it will at least make you look less ignorant when you make some of your arguments here (that have been mercilessly refuted in the article).

Read both articles. Doesn't change my stance, nor do I think they adequately refute the points I made in the slightest.

In fact, I think this point you made (below) ties into exactly what I have been saying.

They went there mainly because Calipari is one of the best coaches in the country at the NCAA level for placing players high in the NBA draft

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

Re: O'Bannon Case and its ripple effect on college hockey

Read both articles. Doesn't change my stance, nor do I think they adequately refute the points I made in the slightest.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>I Hate the NBA I Hate the NBA I Hate the NBA I Hate the NBA I Hate the NBA I Hate the NBA I Hate the NBA I Hate the NBA I Hate the NBA</p>— MN State Of Hockey (@MNState0fHockey) <a href="https://twitter.com/MNState0fHockey/statuses/350438438740299777">June 28, 2013</a></blockquote>
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