Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

The Congressional Budget Office begs to differ.

Really? Please show us where they said costs will be lower. I've only seen where they say that premiums will increase and the only ones that will go down will be because of a gov't subsidy.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Really? Please show us where they said costs will be lower. I've only seen where they say that premiums will increase and the only ones that will go down will be because of a gov't subsidy.

By reduce the cost of Health Care I assumed he meant that the overall cost would go down or the bill would be deficit neutral. AFAIK that's correct and I've heard it more than once in the last two days.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

We kept those 22M jobs by transferring the dot-com bubble to the housing bubble which then became the CDO bubble. We've just been pushing the same bubble around and just in the last 2 years have we shed all those jobs that were mythical to begin with.

Lynah, we have not shed 22M jobs over the last 10 years. If you truly believe that there's no point in having any further discussion with you on this subject.

plante, kudos for hitting every single Palin-esque talking point in one post! Send this to her office and I believe they'll send you back a photo of her in jogging shorts.

However, lets address several points. The auto insurance analogy is flawed because under the current bill more healthy people will join alongside the law barring coverage of pre-existing conditions, thus restoring some balance. Furthermore, what you completely left out is that people who are denied insurance coverage still get treated, its just at the ER at a higher cost to us taxpayers. I thought that was a well known concept, but apparently not.

Lastly, while I'm on board with tort reform, as is the President, its impact by independent analysis is a drop in the bucket. It should be done, but only a resident of fantasyland should think its going to have an impact.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

By reduce the cost of Health Care I assumed he meant that the overall cost would go down or the bill would be deficit neutral. AFAIK that's correct and I've heard it more than once in the last two days.

I won't go into some of the specific numbers and how costs will only go up, but what you are basing you assumption on is when you have 10 years of revenue and only 6 years of benefits. The cost of the bill is $2.3T (at least) when you look at 10 yrs of benefits and there is only $1T of revenue.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I won't go into some of the specific numbers and how costs will only go up, but what you are basing you assumption on is when you have 10 years of revenue and only 6 years of benefits. The cost of the bill is $2.3T (at least) when you look at 10 yrs of benefits and there is only $1T of revenue.

Actually when you look at it over 20 years is approx 100M+ favorable to the deficit in the first 10 years, and 1.1T over the next 10 years. Try again.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, is it you that is really GOP Rep. Paul Broun in real life, or is it eagleshockey or plante?

Rep. Paul Broun (R-Ga.) said Thursday that he does not know if President Barack Obama is either a citizen or a Christian.


Broun made the claim during an interview with Sirius XM host Pete Dominick, which was first flagged by the liberal blog Think Progress.


Asked if he thought the president is an “American citizen and a Christian,” Broun first responded, “I’m not going to get involved in that.”


But pressed on whether he thought Obama is a citizen, he said “I don’t know.”


“Is he a Christian?” Dominick then asked.


“I don’t know that,” Broun responded, explaining that “I’m a Christian but only me and the Lord know that for sure.”


The Georgia congressman spent much of the rest of the interview attacking Obama as a “socialist.”


“I know he is,” a socialist, Broun said. “You look at his own writings. He said when he was in college he leaned to Marxist tendencies and is linked to Marxist professors. He joined Marxists clubs. And look at who he’s put in his administration, they’re devout socialists.”


“America has to stand up and decide if we want to be a socialist nation or if we’re going to be a free nation,” he said.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/33992.html#ixzz0hKW95GXc

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I won't go into some of the specific numbers and how costs will only go up, but what you are basing you assumption on is when you have 10 years of revenue and only 6 years of benefits. The cost of the bill is $2.3T (at least) when you look at 10 yrs of benefits and there is only $1T of revenue.

Thank you for gargling on Republican talking points.

 

[SPIN CONTROL]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Wasn't the CBO off about $12 billion when estimating the cost of the Big Dig?

Just sayin...

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Thank you for gargling on Republican talking points.

And thank you for ignorning reality

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Broun made the claim during an interview with Sirius XM host Pete Dominick, which was first flagged by the liberal blog Think Progress.


Asked if he thought the president is an “American citizen and a Christian,” Broun first responded, “I’m not going to get involved in that.”

Doesn't Pete Dominck host a show with a freakin' Cat meowing in the background all the time, supposed to be a comedy show?

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Wasn't the CBO off about $12 billion when estimating the cost of the Big Dig?

Just sayin...

Since half of that was your shiftless relatives stealing money hand over fist, I'm not sure you should be commenting on this subject.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

And thank you for ignorning reality

Just because you read it on Drudge or heard Rush choke on an Oxycodone while talking about it doesn't make it reality

Just sayin...

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Lynah, we have not shed 22M jobs over the last 10 years. If you truly believe that there's no point in having any further discussion with you on this subject.

plante, kudos for hitting every single Palin-esque talking point in one post! Send this to her office and I believe they'll send you back a photo of her in jogging shorts.

However, lets address several points. The auto insurance analogy is flawed because under the current bill more healthy people will join alongside the law barring coverage of pre-existing conditions, thus restoring some balance. Furthermore, what you completely left out is that people who are denied insurance coverage still get treated, its just at the ER at a higher cost to us taxpayers. I thought that was a well known concept, but apparently not.

Lastly, while I'm on board with tort reform, as is the President, its impact by independent analysis is a drop in the bucket. It should be done, but only a resident of fantasyland should think its going to have an impact.

Wow. Just......wow.

You really need to start thinking with some shred of logic, Rover. Dismissing my points because someone else happened to have said it first? Tagging them as "Palin-esque"; as if you think that somehow makes what I said untrue. Rover: Argue the points and stop acting like a whiny liberal p*ssy b*tch. Why aren't the health industry labor unions offering to aid in the reduction of costs? Why doesn't the government start paying dollar-for-dollar on their subsidized patients?

As for your assertion that my auto insurance analogy isn't pertainent: The entire insurance industry is based on risk--the mitigation and distribution of that risk. Mess with the actuarial tables, and you have a bankrupt insurance company. Basic math would tell you that if you add ANY people with pre-existing conditions, the risk will go up for the entire pool REGARDLESS of the number of "healthy" people that are added. Essentially, this is yet another progressive tax that is being passed along to insured Americans in the form of higher insurance premiums in order to pay for the medical coverage of a small percentage of citizens.

What I don't understand is this: In order to make this bill cost-effective (in a federal sense), the Obama administration is depending on an annualized savings of $500 billion through the elimination of Medicare waste, fraud and abuse. There are, according to most estimates, 8-12MM people without health insurance. That savings alone would be enough to cover the uninsured masses and then some. Of course, this health care bill is so crucial that it won't be enacted for four more years, yet the Dems keep trotting out all of these horror stories about people hit hard by medical problems. If it's so d*mned important, why are they waiting?

Also, keep in mind Scoobs: the CBO's estimates take into account the continuing increases in the cost of health care, as this bill doesn't address cost, only coverage. People walking into the ER aren't the problem--take a look at any hospital's annual financial statement, and you'll see exactly where the largest liabilities are: payroll (which is a given) and malpractice insurance. Notice that you won't see charged-off medical bills as a very large number in most hospitals. The government shortchanging hospitals is only going to make things worse--especially when you have the Baby Boomer generation ready to jump on the Medicare dole.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Wow. Just......wow.

You really need to start thinking with some shred of logic, Rover. Dismissing my points because someone else happened to have said it first? Tagging them as "Palin-esque"; as if you think that somehow makes what I said untrue. Rover: Argue the points and stop acting like a whiny liberal p*ssy b*tch. Why aren't the health industry labor unions offering to aid in the reduction of costs? Why doesn't the government start paying dollar-for-dollar on their subsidized patients?

As for your assertion that my auto insurance analogy isn't pertainent: The entire insurance industry is based on risk--the mitigation and distribution of that risk. Mess with the actuarial tables, and you have a bankrupt insurance company. Basic math would tell you that if you add ANY people with pre-existing conditions, the risk will go up for the entire pool REGARDLESS of the number of "healthy" people that are added. Essentially, this is yet another progressive tax that is being passed along to insured Americans in the form of higher insurance premiums in order to pay for the medical coverage of a small percentage of citizens.

What I don't understand is this: In order to make this bill cost-effective (in a federal sense), the Obama administration is depending on an annualized savings of $500 billion through the elimination of Medicare waste, fraud and abuse. There are, according to most estimates, 8-12MM people without health insurance. That savings alone would be enough to cover the uninsured masses and then some. Of course, this health care bill is so crucial that it won't be enacted for four more years, yet the Dems keep trotting out all of these horror stories about people hit hard by medical problems. If it's so d*mned important, why are they waiting?

Also, keep in mind Scoobs: the CBO's estimates take into account the continuing increases in the cost of health care, as this bill doesn't address cost, only coverage. People walking into the ER aren't the problem--take a look at any hospital's annual financial statement, and you'll see exactly where the largest liabilities are: payroll (which is a given) and malpractice insurance. Notice that you won't see charged-off medical bills as a very large number in most hospitals. The government shortchanging hospitals is only going to make things worse--especially when you have the Baby Boomer generation ready to jump on the Medicare dole.

Ahhh... the internet tough guy argument. Too freakin' funny.

1) Kindly inform us from an independent source how much health industry laobr unions are costing taxpayers. Remember the "independent source" part.

2) Car insurance already has the risky people in the pool, and the costs are disbursed through the system. Therefore your whole analogy is flawed and stupid. Talk about stumbling out of the gate. What we have in health insurance would be like if the bad drivers weren't insured, but then went out and caused accidents and stuck the taxpayers with the bill.

3) There are, according to most estimates 45M people without insurance. Where are you getting your info from (hint: pulling them out of your arse is not a credible source). That throws off your entire premise about coverage.

4) Maybe the dumbest point of all - Hospital financials aren't the issue because the taxpayers are the ones getting stuck with the bill for uncovered ER visits for people without insurance. I hope you don't do investigative work for a living.

5) Any large scale change to the system takes time to incorporate. Why does a 3 year period to get this set up (recall its not law yet) seem so unreasonable?

Bottom line is, if you don't know what you're talking about, its better off for you if you just don't post anything.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Ahhh... the internet tough guy argument. Too freakin' funny.

Listen, you stooge......I've beat up LOTS of people on the Internet.

1) Kindly inform us from an independent source how much health industry laobr unions are costing taxpayers. Remember the "independent source" part.

This doesn't even NEED a source. Obviously, union workers make much more than non-union workers in wages and benefits through extortionary tactics--which is especially henious in the health care world considering that they are leveraging patient well-being vs. exorbitant contract demands. Compare and contrast the payrolls of any hospital from 20 years ago to today; feel free to pull up the financials of any unionized hospital. And BTW: In this scenario, there's no connection to the taxpayer. We're talking about cost of health care. There's no connection between the two. Let's stay on topic, shall we?

2) Car insurance already has the risky people in the pool, and the costs are disbursed through the system. Therefore your whole analogy is flawed and stupid. Talk about stumbling out of the gate. What we have in health insurance would be like if the bad drivers weren't insured, but then went out and caused accidents and stuck the taxpayers with the bill.

The "risky people" are in their own pools, paying more in premiums for a comparable amount of coverage. However, doing away with the pre-existing conditions clause prevents insurance companies from mitigating risk. Your not knowing this makes you flawed and stupid. And the taxpayers don't pick up much of the bill: As of 2003, hospitals were compensated about $30 billion by federal, state and local governments for care provided to the uninsured (source: healthaffairs.org, an organization arguing in favor of health care for all). The proposed savings of $500 billion in waste, fraud and abuse in Medicare would cover that amount 15 times over. But of course, that doesn't do anything about cost of health care, only cost of health care insurance.

3) There are, according to most estimates 45M people without insurance. Where are you getting your info from (hint: pulling them out of your arse is not a credible source). That throws off your entire premise about coverage.

Even at 45MM, $500 billion would be an ample amount--you even said it yourself: There's going to be all sorts of healthy people joining the ranks of insured Americans. Of course, we both know that isn't the case, but your double standard is amusing. We both know that the majority of people without health insurance (and can't afford it) also tend to be the people with poorer health, as there is a direct correlation between poverty and poor health. So again, the people that WOULD take advantage of being insured would be the ones that raise risk within their undiffereniated pool. But anyhow, $500 billion/year breaks down to over $1000/year per person at 45MM uninsured. Of course, that number includes millions of illegal aliens, so.......

4) Maybe the dumbest point of all - Hospital financials aren't the issue because the taxpayers are the ones getting stuck with the bill for uncovered ER visits for people without insurance. I hope you don't do investigative work for a living.

Again, Slappy, see above at #1 . Taxpayers aren't getting stuck with nearly as much as is being implied, and Medicare savings MORE than cover this, which means that this whole health care reform debacle is being WAY overengineered. That figure also includes CHARITY CARE, which shouldn't be falling under uncompensated care since the providers of said care aren't looking to be paid. Hospitals are able to write off this expense as well, so it can't even be considered 100% uncompensated.

5) Any large scale change to the system takes time to incorporate. Why does a 3 year period to get this set up (recall its not law yet) seem so unreasonable?

Well, from what I've proven to you, there is no need to "large scale change"......especially when it is going to come at the expense of everyone who is currently paying health insurance premiums.

Bottom line is, if you don't know what you're talking about, its better off for you if you just don't post anything.

Sometimes, it is gratifying to completely destroy someone's ideology. For me, this would be one of those times. And take an Econ 101 class, because your grasp of basic economic theory is that of a first grader in the slow learners reading group.

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Speaking of Econ, the five states that are in the worst financial trouble are all heavily Democratic and heavily unionized:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/25/democratic-states-bad-financial-shape-personal-finance-blue.html

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Speaking of Econ, the five states that are in the worst financial trouble are all heavily Democratic and heavily unionized:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/25/democratic-states-bad-financial-shape-personal-finance-blue.html

That's weird. Who'd have thunk?

Oh yeah. Almost forgot. It's all Bush's fault.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Speaking of Econ, the five states that are in the worst financial trouble are all heavily Democratic and heavily unionized:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/25/democratic-states-bad-financial-shape-personal-finance-blue.html

Too funny.

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I'd like to congratulate the congress on doing something right. I don't care how ****y the Turks get but finally we have that genocide resolution passed.

Now, maybe they'll realize that they didn't do what their great-great-grandfathers did

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

and you'll see exactly where the largest liabilities are: payroll (which is a given) and malpractice insurance

The number I saw was around 48% of the healthcare rise is wages. I would imagine payroll is the primary reason for the rise in education costs. And I've to agree about the union thing. just last year our Fire department got 10% raise with some vague promise of giving back if there is a budget deficit... year late we have a budget deficit and they refuse to rollback the raise and the city assembly had to cut the departments budget which "forced" the fire department to layoff and cut services.

I don't know. The republicans don't aknowledge there is a problem or market will have a solution or self correct/police while democrats spouts solutions that are actually making the problem worst. like in housing and healthcare costs.

And I'll give an example that I ran across awhile ago ordering some contacts.
I'm still trying to understand the logic of making contact lenses a medical device in 2004? I guess eye doctors were losing sales to online contact sellers so they refused to give prescription to the patient and forced them to buy from them and the compromise solution by congress was to reclassify it as a medical device and you needed prescription from MD only and every year. And MD have to write you that prescription.

Even though SOFT contacts come in ONE or 2 diameter size now everyone is forced to get prescription from MD instead of your local optician tech.
So the price of eye exam for glasses and contacts were identical before this bill passed around $75-100 ... now the eye exam for glasses is still $75 since you don't need a MD to prescribe and there is ample competition but for contacts it's risen to $150-250 since it's a medical device that only MDs can prescribe. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever seen if you're trying to contain medical costs.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Actually when you look at it over 20 years is approx 100M+ favorable to the deficit in the first 10 years, and 1.1T over the next 10 years. Try again.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, is it you that is really GOP Rep. Paul Broun in real life, or is it eagleshockey or plante?

Rep. Paul Broun (R-Ga.) said Thursday that he does not know if President Barack Obama is either a citizen or a Christian.


Broun made the claim during an interview with Sirius XM host Pete Dominick, which was first flagged by the liberal blog Think Progress.


Asked if he thought the president is an “American citizen and a Christian,” Broun first responded, “I’m not going to get involved in that.”


But pressed on whether he thought Obama is a citizen, he said “I don’t know.”


“Is he a Christian?” Dominick then asked.


“I don’t know that,” Broun responded, explaining that “I’m a Christian but only me and the Lord know that for sure.”


The Georgia congressman spent much of the rest of the interview attacking Obama as a “socialist.”


“I know he is,” a socialist, Broun said. “You look at his own writings. He said when he was in college he leaned to Marxist tendencies and is linked to Marxist professors. He joined Marxists clubs. And look at who he’s put in his administration, they’re devout socialists.”


“America has to stand up and decide if we want to be a socialist nation or if we’re going to be a free nation,” he said.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/33992.html#ixzz0hKW95GXc

Can't defend some of the crazy that Broun tossed out there, but I have seen nothing to indicate that Obama is a Christian.