Obama 7 - now what?

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Did he say that? I know his partner Jimmy Rogers moved to China awhile ago to invest and raise his kids there. It actually makes sense, China owns $1 or 2 trillion of our national debt. And the trade deficit is actually worse than what we had with Japan in the 80's when people were calling for the "Rising sun" Japan to takeover the #1 spot. British-America-Japan?-China maybe India or Brazil to follow as we fade in the economic power.

We're on borrowed money ($12Trillion and counting)... and borrowed time with the new technology (which are being outsourced to China and India).

China will own us if we continue to preach cap-and-trade while not holding the Chicomms balls to the bandsaw on the same issue.....who do you think is buying all of the new debt that Obama's Administration is currently selling? Bush didn't do us any favors in this area, but things have gone from 55 mph to 125 mph in .2 seconds.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

China will own us if we continue to preach cap-and-trade while not holding the Chicomms balls to the bandsaw on the same issue.....who do you think is buying all of the new debt that Obama's Administration is currently selling? Bush didn't do us any favors in this area, but things have gone from 55 mph to 125 mph in .2 seconds.

First, cap and trade will not move the needle on US' position as a global economic power. There are many, many more important factor (such as we positioning ourselves as international outcast via foriegn policy) that will make policies like cap and trade a rounding error.

Second, much of your '125 mph' spending was teed up by Bush...and even that and much of the current Obama spending is to get someone, anyone to spend and hire as unemployment continues to spiral upward. The critical need for forced spending and hiring is explained frequently...many continue to still not get it.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

First, cap and trade will not move the needle on US' position as a global economic power. There are many, many more important factor (such as we positioning ourselves as international outcast via foriegn policy) that will make policies like cap and trade a rounding error.

Second, much of your '125 mph' spending was teed up by Bush...and even that and much of the current Obama spending is to get someone, anyone to spend and hire as unemployment continues to spiral upward. The critical need for forced spending and hiring is explained frequently...many continue to still not get it.

Uhhh....not sure where to start here. Pretty much everything you just said is completely void of reason. But here's the question that's on my mind:

How much longer do you get to blame Bush for everything? Because, seriously.....it's Obama's budget now. He's the one spending, and has spent nearly a trillion dollars only to see unemployment continue to rise--subsequently driving the dollar down and costing me a sh*tload more to fill my fuel oil tank. Wow, Obama has created a couple tens of thousand of jobs. Of course, he'll claim to have saved hundreds of thousands more, but there's really no way to measure that, so, c'mon.....when is it Obama's economy? Let me guess.....when it turns around, right?

Oh, and please explain how cap-and-trade will benefit the US economy. I do look forward to hearing how this broken idea will create a net gain in the US with regards to jobs and profitability for American industry. And then follow that up with some data on how American foreign policy has damaged the US economy. Because all I'm hearing from you is "It's all Bush's fault." Which, like I said, is getting old real quicklike.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

How much longer do you get to blame Bush for everything? Because, seriously.....it's Obama's budget now. He's the one spending, and has spent nearly a trillion dollars only to see unemployment continue to rise--subsequently driving the dollar down and costing me a sh*tload more to fill my fuel oil tank. Wow, Obama has created a couple tens of thousand of jobs. Of course, he'll claim to have saved hundreds of thousands more, but there's really no way to measure that, so, c'mon.....when is it Obama's economy? Let me guess.....when it turns around, right?

Well Bush spent 8 years flushing it down the toilet....we should give Obama one year to bring it back up.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Well Bush spent 8 years flushing it down the toilet....

Explain. Please, do tell.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

How much longer do you get to blame Bush for everything? Because, seriously.....it's Obama's budget now. He's the one spending, and has spent nearly a trillion dollars only to see unemployment continue to rise--subsequently driving the dollar down and costing me a sh*tload more to fill my fuel oil tank.

Did you know that Bush championed the stimulus policy through congress?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23143814/

...or Bush championed the bank bailout through congress?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26987291/

Your comments make no sense as ultimately I don't 'blame' Bush for these as much of this was necessary (unlike the military commitments which we're saddled with and obviously poor economic stewardship).

In the end, you didn't even address the main point.

Oh, and please explain how cap-and-trade will benefit the US economy. I do look forward to hearing how this broken idea will create a net gain in the US with regards to jobs and profitability for American industry. And then follow that up with some data on how American foreign policy has damaged the US economy. Because all I'm hearing from you is "It's all Bush's fault." Which, like I said, is getting old real quicklike.

OK...we'll help you with the reason then. The US wins in innovation. The US owns environmental innovation today...and would own it for decades. Its exactly the type of multibillion dollar international industry the US needs to help it take control of its own destiny again.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Did you know that Bush championed the stimulus policy through congress?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23143814/

...or Bush championed the bank bailout through congress?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26987291/

Your comments make no sense as ultimately I don't 'blame' Bush for these as much of this was necessary (unlike the military commitments which we're saddled with and obviously poor economic stewardship).

In the end, you didn't even address the main point.



OK...we'll help you with the reason then. The US wins in innovation. The US owns environmental innovation today...and would own it for decades. Its exactly the type of multibillion dollar international industry the US needs to help it take control of its own destiny again.

Here's the deal.....first of all, the bank "bailouts" championed by Bush wasn't the government giving money away. The banks are on the hook for that money--and many of them have paid it back to avoid the Obama Administration/Pay Czar tampering with private payrolls. That isn't the anywhere in the same area code as the 2009 Stimulus. The government actually EARNED money from the banking ordeal.....of course, Obama & Co. have now commandeered those funds to use as they please, so the profit will never be realized by the taxpaying citizen--yet another travesty bestowed upon us by Barry O.

Secondly, you are a moron. Let me repeat: YOU. ARE. A. MORON. The link you posted from msnbc.com was for the 2008 Stimulus, which gave money DIRECTLY to citizens, which was still a gross misuse of taxpayer money considering over $0.80 of every dollar came from someone who didn't get anything from that same stimulus spending spree. Learn your facts--and how to search on the Internet, and maybe then you can sit at the grown-up table and talk about grown-up things.

And finally, how can you argue that we need to champion "environmental innovation" when half the world won't sign on to an environmental treaty? You honestly think that we can surpass China when they've given us the finger on every environmental issue we've brought to them? They're kicking our arses all over the economic map and meanwhile, they fiscally OWN us. And you think wind turbines and solar panels are our way out? China can pretty much produce everything we can for $0.05 on the dollar. You're on crack if you think clean energy is the key to a successful America. And on top of that, you think that being "liked" is going to make us a more prosperous country? The world ***** LOVES Obama, and where has that gotten us? Our dollar is about to be kicked out as the world's standard--not to mention it's value is plummeting, our unemployment rate is skyrocketing, and your solution is environmental innovation? Top that off with forced health insurance, and we're about to drive our economy into the ground, but don't worry......5mnMajor is going to make some compost boxes and reusable grocery sacks for us so that we'll all be OK.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

unlike the military commitments which we're saddled with...

I disagree with much that went on in the Iraq/Afghan war. The run up to the war was a complete political snowjob, etc. But to blame the government's financial position on $1T in spending over an 8-year period is absolutely foolish. Obama spent that in his first 2 months on the job.

It'd be like saying the ice cubes in the water glasses took down the Titanic.

Funny how 1T in war spending over 8 years wrecked the economy, but almost that exact same amount over the exact same period for healthcare will turn everything into rainbows and lollipops.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Here's the deal.....first of all, the bank "bailouts" championed by Bush wasn't the government giving money away. The banks are on the hook for that money--and many of them have paid it back to avoid the Obama Administration/Pay Czar tampering with private payrolls. That isn't the anywhere in the same area code as the 2009 Stimulus. The government actually EARNED money from the banking ordeal.....of course, Obama & Co. have now commandeered those funds to use as they please, so the profit will never be realized by the taxpaying citizen--yet another travesty bestowed upon us by Barry O.

As mentioned, the bailout was fine...but since when will the cost to the US be zero? When do you propose we get paid back for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae...and what about the $85 billion for AIG? Or did we forget about this part of the stabilization act?

Its been awhile since I've heard someone so aggressively defend GW's spending habits.

And finally, how can you argue that we need to champion "environmental innovation" when half the world won't sign on to an environmental treaty? You honestly think that we can surpass China when they've given us the finger on every environmental issue we've brought to them? They're kicking our arses all over the economic map and meanwhile, they fiscally OWN us. And you think wind turbines and solar panels are our way out? China can pretty much produce everything we can for $0.05 on the dollar. You're on crack if you think clean energy is the key to a successful America. And on top of that, you think that being "liked" is going to make us a more prosperous country? The world ***** LOVES Obama, and where has that gotten us? Our dollar is about to be kicked out as the world's standard--not to mention it's value is plummeting, our unemployment rate is skyrocketing, and your solution is environmental innovation? Top that off with forced health insurance, and we're about to drive our economy into the ground, but don't worry......5mnMajor is going to make some compost boxes and reusable grocery sacks for us so that we'll all be OK.

Nice tirade...with little substance. The envronmental technology industry is about $2 trillion...and is expected to grow several hundred percent in the next 10 years. And yes, Asia is by far its fastest growing area with China's adoption over 15% growth each year. But why bother...right?

We have some challenges...but no need to count the US out for the duration. This is yet another reason the right should be nowhere near the levers of power right now...just say 'the sky is falling' and save yourself time.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

I disagree with much that went on in the Iraq/Afghan war. The run up to the war was a complete political snowjob, etc. But to blame the government's financial position on $1T in spending over an 8-year period is absolutely foolish. Obama spent that in his first 2 months on the job.

It'd be like saying the ice cubes in the water glasses took down the Titanic.

Funny how 1T in war spending over 8 years wrecked the economy, but almost that exact same amount over the exact same period for healthcare will turn everything into rainbows and lollipops.

Sorry but 1 trillion is a lot of money in the grand scheme. A dose of an additional 1 trillion dollars in spending from anyone right now would do a world of good. Also, the costs of this war have been hidden like nobodies business, including bad contracts. I don't buy those numbers.

But most importantly, the economy has blown big chunks since the rhetoric and ultimately the war began. The economy has done little to grow over the last decade...and yes, an Iraq war and its implications for hostility towards a handful of other countries does wonders for the US psyche. The cost to US business of distraction have no question been part of the headwind this country faced for the last decade. I would be interested to hear any major multinational companies such as GE or McDonalds say the Iraq occupation was good for international business. If you really think the final cost to this country of the wars have been $1 trillion, then there's no bother continuing any discussion.

Frankly much of the military is messed up. Much of military spending is for the wrong type of wars. To say nothing of the huge ongoing costs of protecting countries like Japan and stationing a massive amount of our troops in the center of the EU...arguably the safest place on the planet today. Lots of opportunity for downsizing towards more value add outcomes

But you and I will always disagree with you thinking the cost to the US of these wars is one trillion...and me seeing much greater impact for the psyche of US business and implications of a crash in our international rep.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

As mentioned, the bailout was fine...but since when will the cost to the US be zero? When do you propose we get paid back for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae...and what about the $85 billion for AIG? Or did we forget about this part of the stabilization act?

Its been awhile since I've heard someone so aggressively defend GW's spending habits.

Dumas....Fannie and Freddie are government-sponsored entities. The schmucks that ran the two government pigs extended mortgages to borrowers that weren't creditworthy.....thus the mess that we're in, by and large. AIG was a casualty of the Fannie/Freddie debacle due to their backing the investments comprised of Fannie/Freddie-bundled mortgages, which is a d*mn strong argument as to why the government shouldn't be meddling in finance to BEGIN WITH--politicians telling them who they had to lend to. If you haven't been paying attention, I've been p*ssed about Bush spending too much for a while. And now Obama is making Bush look like a spendthrift. I'm just waiting for Obama to man up and take ownership of what he's creating.....which is a sh*tty economy and an even sh*ttier debt load via feel-good policies and anti-capitalist rhetoric. And you also have no idea on whether I lean left or right, so stop with the political BS. It's a matter of facts, not what-ifs and maybes.

Nice tirade...with little substance. The envronmental technology industry is about $2 trillion...and is expected to grow several hundred percent in the next 10 years. And yes, Asia is by far its fastest growing area with China's adoption over 15% growth each year. But why bother...right?

We have some challenges...but no need to count the US out for the duration. This is yet another reason the right should be nowhere near the levers of power right now...just say 'the sky is falling' and save yourself time.

$2 trillion? What the he-ll are you talking about? What oriface did you pull that number out of? Worldwide? But even that isn't possible considering the world's GDP is $67 trillion.....so, your numbers say that environmental innovation comprises almost 3% of the world's GDP. Not quite. I won't believe that until I see some hard data--data which doesn't exist. Should we work towards energy independence? Absolutely. But hoping for sunshine and rainbows tomorrow afternoon isn't going to get a fledgling industry to buoy the entire US economy. You can hope and change in one hand, and sh*t in the other, and I can tell you which one will fill up first.

And challenges you say? China has the ability to destroy the entire US economy with a couple of securities transactions. That is the #1 challenge we need to be dealing with now. There is literally NOTHING we can do to compete with China when they have us by the short hairs called federal debt.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Explain. Please, do tell.

Total National Debt on Clinton's first day. (Jan. 20, 1993) [earliest record i could find]
roughly 4.18 trillion.

Total National Debt at the end of Clintons last fiscal year(Sept 30, 2001)
roughly 5.8 Trillion

Total National Debt at the end of Bush's last fiscal year (Sept 30, 2009)
roughly 11.9 trillion


In 8+ years under Clinton the national debt increased roughly 1.7 trillion...8 years under Bush it increased 6.1 trillion even if you drop a trillion for Obamas stimulus package it increased 3 times what it did during Clinton's reign.

Since Obama's budget took effect on Oct 1, 2009...the total national debt has decreased by 41.3 billion.

source: http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Total National Debt on Clinton's first day. (Jan. 20, 1993) [earliest record i could find]
roughly 4.18 trillion.

Total National Debt at the end of Clintons last fiscal year(Sept 30, 2001)
roughly 5.8 Trillion

Total National Debt at the end of Bush's last fiscal year (Sept 30, 2009)
roughly 11.9 trillion


In 8+ years under Clinton the national debt increased roughly 1.7 trillion...8 years under Bush it increased 6.1 trillion even if you drop a trillion for Obamas stimulus package it increased 3 times what it did during Clinton's reign.

Since Obama's budget took effect on Oct 1, 2009...the total national debt has decreased by 41.3 billion.

source: http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/

Well, when you consider that the POTUS doesn't have the ability to spend a single penny and that Congress does, and you then consider that between Oct. 2007 and Oct. 2009 the public debt increased nearly $3 trillion, and during that time Congress was controlled by the Dems, who is really responsible? Also consider that Congress was controlled by the Dems for another couple years of the Bush years, and you can see how it wasn't Bush hitting the ATM. He-ll, the majority of Dems voted for the war that is so unpopular amongst the left. I don't like Bush for approving those fat badgets, but you can't pin it on him. I'd like you to pinpoint some Bush policies that caused your purported Bush-induced economic collapse.

And your Obama reduction of the national debt in one month of "his" budget is .003% of the total debt. There were numerous times during the Bush years that the debt fell by more than this. Try again.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Sorry but 1 trillion is a lot of money in the grand scheme. A dose of an additional 1 trillion dollars in spending from anyone right now would do a world of good. Also, the costs of this war have been hidden like nobodies business, including bad contracts. I don't buy those numbers.

Incredible. We're literally drowning in debt with massive inflation staring us in the face, and you're calling for MORE spending. Absolutely mind boggling.

But most importantly, the economy has blown big chunks since the rhetoric and ultimately the war began.

And during that same period, I moved abroad - perhaps it's somehow my fault? I mean, if we're reduced to mentioning correlations, now...

The economy has done little to grow over the last decade...and yes, an Iraq war and its implications for hostility towards a handful of other countries does wonders for the US psyche. The cost to US business of distraction have no question been part of the headwind this country faced for the last decade. I would be interested to hear any major multinational companies such as GE or McDonalds say the Iraq occupation was good for international business.

I'd love to hear how it was BAD for their business. Link?

You can ooh and aah over how much the rest of the world "loves" Obama, but the reality is that their deeds do not match their words. The dollar has declined significantly since Obama took office (which greatly affects me personally, by the way). If all these other countries *really* had confidence in Obama's handling of the US government's finances in particular and the US economy in general, they'd be buying dollars to invest in US companies and the dollar would be headed north, not south. I know this may come as a shock to you, but other countries may not have the US's best interest at heart. When Europe says, "we're happy that Obama is the US President," that's a bit like UNH fans saying "we're happy that Whitehead is Maine's coach."

 

[gojackets]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Well, when you consider that the POTUS doesn't have the ability to spend a single penny and that Congress does, and you then consider that between Oct. 2007 and Oct. 2009 the public debt increased nearly $3 trillion, and during that time Congress was controlled by the Dems, who is really responsible? Also consider that Congress was controlled by the Dems for another couple years of the Bush years, and you can see how it wasn't Bush hitting the ATM. He-ll, the majority of Dems voted for the war that is so unpopular amongst the left. I don't like Bush for approving those fat badgets, but you can't pin it on him. I'd like you to pinpoint some Bush policies that caused your purported Bush-induced economic collapse.

It's funny because you blame Obama for spending all this money, but then you say the POTUS doesn't control spending, congress does. I don't really want to get into a big discussion.

It is not like Bush had no control over the spending whatsoever for those years. They were his budgets. He had to approve the spending...I don't recall offhand too many spending bills that were vetoed and then overturned by a vote of congress.

Really all I have to say on the subject.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

So, Bush isnt responsible for his budgets because for 2 years the Dems had a minor control of Congress (what about the other 6 years he spent like it was going out of style) but Obama is responsible for his because you don't like him...man I am glad I have Plante on ignore still

There is no defense of Obama's spending, 5mn Major is beyond "out to lunch" in all of his defenses. He is right about certain things like getting our troops out of the EU since they dont need us there, but everything he says economically is ridiculous and has been for years. Nothing beat when he implied the stockmarkets were rising because of Obama's speeches shortly after the election. I don't think he has clue 1 of what is going on in the real world.

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Incredible. We're literally drowning in debt with massive inflation staring us in the face, and you're calling for MORE spending. Absolutely mind boggling.

What the hell's the matter with you? Why can't you see the fiscal sanity behind spending more money when Ford just made a billion dollars last quarter with no government aid?

http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20091102/US.Earns.Ford/

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

First, cap and trade will not move the needle on US' position as a global economic power. There are many, many more important factor (such as we positioning ourselves as international outcast via foriegn policy) that will make policies like cap and trade a rounding error.

What an idiot!
Sucking more foreign *** will do our economy more good than resisting the urge to pour sand into the industrial engine of our own economic growth????? (which is the effect of cap & trade)
Cap & Trade is the one thing, even more than a $10T debt, that can kill U.S. competitiveness for the next couple of generations. When it passes, I'm off for New Zealand.

 

[joecct]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

What the hell's the matter with you? Why can't you see the fiscal sanity behind spending more money when Ford just made a billion dollars last quarter with no government aid?

http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20091102/US.Earns.Ford/

The UAW and the czar of companies that make too much money will put a stop to that!

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 7 - now what?

Yikes, I haven't seen this many cavemen in once place since those annoying Geico commercials were on TV.

However, lets hit the high notes.

1) Reading news on Ford, it seems a lot of their profitability comes from....wait for it...Cash For Clunkers! Yup, no gubmint help involved here Cletus.

2) Cap & trade is not indeed some crypto-socialist plot to take away individual freedoms and subject us to the rule of the Government of the United Nations. If some of you are doing an Al Bundy imitation out here - kudos! If not - seek help.

Rather, the US needs to stop kissing up to brutal Middle East dictatorships where all the oil is located and can be cheaply extracted. Domestic drilling will never be able to compete, so the solution is energy efficiency & non petroleum based fuels. Accomplish that, and then China can kiss our @zz for awhile when it comes to manufacturing competitiveness. Now I realize conservatives tend to favor what's good for China over what's good for America, but on this issue maybe you guys can root for the home team for once.