NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

[joecct]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

Now show the women's figures.

 

[LTsatch]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

How do more than one third of the reporting Universities and Colleges have an exact match for revenue and expenses? I manage an 8 million dollar budget for work, and there is no way that those teams are even for the year, creative accounting for sure. There is not enough information about what the expenses are and where the revenue comes from to even make this study close to realistic. You can come in here with data, but consider the source(s). Yale had 20 home games this year with approx. attendance of 60,000 knock off 500 students per game and make it 50,000 x 12 for a ticket and we are looking at 600 K just in ticket revenue, plus concessions and parking.

FWIW there is no way Sacred Heart rolled in over a million in revenue, they play in a rink worse than my high school rink one town over, and average less than 500 hundred a home game. Parking is free and the snack bar sux. less than 50K in ticket sales for the year. Caveat, they still managed to knock of Yale this year

 

[UMLFan]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

As a Lowell fan, the one thing I walk away from these numbers with is that this proves what many of us (Lowell fans) have thought, we have the smallest budget in Hockey East. The good thing for the Lowell numbers is that with UML now owning the arena (they didn't in 2010), selling beers and keeping all the revenues, having over 5k in the stadium per game last year, the profit should have gone up. Hopefully that means some of that money is put back into the program and increases the smallest recruiting budget in Hockey East.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

Now show the women's figures.

http://board.uscho.com/showthread.p...exy-Party-Part-7-Here-s-Your-Stimulus-Package!

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

How do more than one third of the reporting Universities and Colleges have an exact match for revenue and expenses? I manage an 8 million dollar budget for work, and there is no way that those teams are even for the year, creative accounting for sure. There is not enough information about what the expenses are and where the revenue comes from to even make this study close to realistic. You can come in here with data, but consider the source(s). Yale had 20 home games this year with approx. attendance of 60,000 knock off 500 students per game and make it 50,000 x 12 for a ticket and we are looking at 600 K just in ticket revenue, plus concessions and parking.

FWIW there is no way Sacred Heart rolled in over a million in revenue, they play in a rink worse than my high school rink one town over, and average less than 500 hundred a home game. Parking is free and the snack bar sux. less than 50K in ticket sales for the year. Caveat, they still managed to knock of Yale this year

Money from the administration?

I would assume that RPI's figure includes a good portion of the Student Union activity fee, and it isn't all from ticket sales, sponsorships, and the like (although I'm sure it's a good chunk).

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

Lots of good questions. Wish the gov website broke the revenues and expenses down further, but I would imagine that level of detail is not needed for them. And while this exercise did raise other interesting questions, I think it was interesting and am glad Jup took the time to put it together.

 

[IrishHockeyFan]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

I don't trust those numbers.

Neither do I.

A couple of reasons why:

Revenue figures are fairly useless unless one knows what counts as revenue and what the source of the information is. The Notre Dame figure is accurate, but it is one metric (albeit the most meaningful one for ND), ticket revenue for the 18 games Notre Dame played at the Joyce Center in the 2009-10 season. It doesn't include memorabilia, concessions, or earmarked alumni donations, among other things. At some schools those items and others (TV/Radio revenue would be one) would likely rival the ticket revenue. So for Notre Dame the revenue number lacks the data necessary to be meaningful. I'm guessing for some (most) of the other schools the same thing is true.

Expenses can be equally deceiving because for instance while the cost of one year's worth of education at Notre Dame now exceeds $50,000 for some individuals (and no it isn't really 2 or three times better than what a good public school provides), how do you really calculate how much it actually costs Notre Dame to provide it and more importantly, how is Notre Dame doing it? But included in expenses is possibly the market value of 18 scholarships at some of those schools. Notre Dame claims it spends around $23,000 in athletically related student aid per participant. Again, how do they arrive at those figures? These schools do exactly what Alton says and release self-serving numbers to whatever extent they can. If you don't think that's happening I have some prime swamp land in Florida I can make you a great deal on.

At the end of the day these numbers likely don't give a true picture at all of the amounts of money the various schools spend or make on hockey. I don't think they can begin to be accurately analyzed. There is a reason the EIA website includes the cautionary note right on their front page: Please note that valid comparisons of athletics data are possible only with study and analysis of the conditions affecting each institution.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

The amount and distribution of T.V. revenues vary from contract to contract. Nevertheless, to the best of my recollection there have never been any specifics cited on this forum regarding the revenue from T.V. contracts or the distribution of these revenues. Conclusions about "NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not" have to address media revenues and their distribution to have any credibility.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

The amount and distribution of T.V. revenues vary from contract to contract. Nevertheless, to the best of my recollection there have never been any specifics cited on this forum regarding the revenue from T.V. contracts or the distribution of these revenues. Conclusions about "NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not" have to address media revenues and their distribution to have any credibility.

That money doesn't go to the schools, DuMass.

 

[CLS]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

Expenses are also deceiving because of different ways accounting for the cost of the facility. Sometimes the expense figures are only operating expenses, with the cost of the hockey rink in some captial account, and sometimes maintenance is in some university-wide facilty maintenance account. Those numbers can be significant.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Neither do I.

A couple of reasons why:

Revenue figures are fairly useless unless one knows what counts as revenue and what the source of the information is. The Notre Dame figure is accurate, but it is one metric (albeit the most meaningful one for ND), ticket revenue for the 18 games Notre Dame played at the Joyce Center in the 2009-10 season. It doesn't include memorabilia, concessions, or earmarked alumni donations, among other things. At some schools those items and others (TV/Radio revenue would be one) would likely rival the ticket revenue. So for Notre Dame the revenue number lacks the data necessary to be meaningful. I'm guessing for some (most) of the other schools the same thing is true.

Expenses can be equally deceiving because for instance while the cost of one year's worth of education at Notre Dame now exceeds $50,000 for some individuals (and no it isn't really 2 or three times better than what a good public school provides), how do you really calculate how much it actually costs Notre Dame to provide it and more importantly, how is Notre Dame doing it? But included in expenses is possibly the market value of 18 scholarships at some of those schools. Notre Dame claims it spends around $23,000 in athletically related student aid per participant. Again, how do they arrive at those figures? These schools do exactly what Alton says and release self-serving numbers to whatever extent they can. If you don't think that's happening I have some prime swamp land in Florida I can make you a great deal on.

At the end of the day these numbers likely don't give a true picture at all of the amounts of money the various schools spend or make on hockey. I don't think they can begin to be accurately analyzed. There is a reason the EIA website includes the cautionary note right on their front page: Please note that valid comparisons of athletics data are possible only with study and analysis of the conditions affecting each institution.

I think it isn't perfect, but it's a lot closer to the true numbers than you want to make it sound.

 

[IrishHockeyFan]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

I think it isn't perfect, but it's a lot closer to the true numbers than you want to make it sound.

Actually neither you or I have the first clue as to how close these are to being "true numbers." Like I (and others) have noted repeatedly, without more information figures like these are nearly worthless. I don't doubt there is some connection to truth in some of the individual figures, like the ticket revenue I cited in the Notre Dame numbers. But it is like telling me the wind is blowing 15 miles per hour and expecting me to guess the weather based on that input and that input alone. It cannot be done. Do you really believe for a minute that Ferris State, while drawing fewer people per game, who are paying -- on average -- less per ticket, and having few or no discernable alternate sources of hockey specific revenue over and above Notre Dame still managed to generate nearly double the revenue over the course of an entire school year? Hell in the Notre Dame figure alone they failed to include the revenue from 3 off campus games where we the ticket revenue went into their pockets. What else is missing? I stand by my statement that these numbers hardly give a true or accurate picture of the actual dollars involved.

 

[Dirty]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

The important thing here is Minnesota was able to beat BC at something.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Actually neither you or I have the first clue as to how close these are to being "true numbers." Like I (and others) have noted repeatedly, without more information figures like these are nearly worthless. I don't doubt there is some connection to truth in some of the individual figures, like the ticket revenue I cited in the Notre Dame numbers. But it is like telling me the wind is blowing 15 miles per hour and expecting me to guess the weather based on that input and that input alone. It cannot be done. Do you really believe for a minute that Ferris State, while drawing fewer people per game, who are paying -- on average -- less per ticket, and having few or no discernable alternate sources of hockey specific revenue over and above Notre Dame still managed to generate nearly double the revenue over the course of an entire school year? Hell in the Notre Dame figure alone they failed to include the revenue from 3 off campus games where we the ticket revenue went into their pockets. What else is missing? I stand by my statement that these numbers hardly give a true or accurate picture of the actual dollars involved.

The schools are legally obligated to report the numbers accurately to the government for Title 9 purposes. Yeah, I'm sure there is some creative accounting involved, but I would be stunned if the government let the schools report numbers that are nowhere near representative of the actual revenues and expenses.

 

[scsutommyboy]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

The schools are legally obligated to report the numbers accurately to the government for Title 9 purposes. Yeah, I'm sure there is some creative accounting involved, but I would be stunned if the government let the schools report numbers that are nowhere near representative of the actual revenues and expenses.

What is needed to or leagally obligated to report does not make it true numbers. Anybody who runs a business will tell you that. I would bet a lot of money Schools count scholarship tution against their budget, but that is really double dipping or partial double dipping. Schools figure out tution cost by how much tution money they expect to collect. That means the students paying tution are actually paying a portion of the student who is not payings tution. Now obviously scholarship grants and state funding are figured in here, but the reality is a scholarship hockey player does not cost the school as much as they claim.

 

[Squarebanks]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

I have a hard time believing UAF is the second-highest revenue generator in the CCHA.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

What is needed to or leagally obligated to report does not make it true numbers. Anybody who runs a business will tell you that. I would bet a lot of money Schools count scholarship tution against their budget, but that is really double dipping or partial double dipping. Schools figure out tution cost by how much tution money they expect to collect. That means the students paying tution are actually paying a portion of the student who is not payings tution. Now obviously scholarship grants and state funding are figured in here, but the reality is a scholarship hockey player does not cost the school as much as they claim.

Oh, I agree. There has to be some creative accounting going on. That said, i find it hard to believe the numbers reported are completely unrespresentative of the truth either. I think the numbers are much closer to being accurate than they are to being not. Otherwise, why even report them? It's supposed to give us an indication of just how much is being spent on men's and women's athletics, and how much they make. And to be completely honest, I'm not all that surprised by the numbers. Hockey is a tough sport to make money on.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

Perhaps administrations or student unions are providing regular monetary amounts towards the program, and they are including that in the revenue. With the 23 schools that come out dead even, perhaps there's a clause to say that the school will provide the amount needed to get back to even, or take the money to get to even. A school is a non-profit organization, after all.

 

[dggoddard]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

Its an interesting debate, but obviously the numbers on both sides of the spreadsheet can be massaged.

I once spoke to an NHL scout who asked me what DU spent on hockey. I told him, "A million or two" and he almost fell out of his chair laughing. He knew what major junior teams were spending, obviously DU had better facilities, traveled by plane and had schollies to name just a few perks.

How do you account for the coach's secretary, the director of hockey operations, possible rent on the arena, DU spends $500,000 converting Magness from hockey to basketball, the 18 scholarships are worth $900,000, $300,000 on travel, $500,000 on coaches salaries, zambonis, ice time and electrical.

On the revenue side, parking on game nights, advertising in the arena, merchandise sales. DU probably sells a million bucks worth of beer & liquor, most schools don't have that revenue stream.

That being said, $2.3 million is probably an accurate number for DU's ticket sales.

 

[KnowItAll]

Re: NCAA Hockey - Who's Making $$$, Who's Not

I don't trust those numbers.

(1) The revenue numbers might be reasonably accurate (although I suspect that each school has a different way of calculating revenues), but the expenses are all over the place. I simply don't buy the idea that Wisconsin spends more than twice as much on its hockey program as Minnesota. Why? Where are those 2 million dollars being spent in Madison that aren't being spent in Minneapolis?

(2) If even one school had exactly the same revenue and expenses, it would be an amazing coincidence. However, if you look at the chart, 23 of the 56 schools list revenues and expenses the same down to the last dollar! How did BC know to spend exactly $3,702,040 on their hockey program? Amazing how they nailed that guess...too bad Denver went $1 over!

The numbers that schools report are going to be self-serving, and there is no way to ensure that they are calculated in the same way (or even a remotely similar way).

so these are dam lies?
or statistics? or worse yet?