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NCAA Hockey Financials

Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

Let me start by saying that this is just for discussion purposes - to get the juices flowing so to speak! I went on to collegefactual.com and used their "average financial aid" number for each school, that means that averaged across freshmen this is the allocated aid package. Using this measure you could argue that if an athlete was replaced with a regular freshman then this is the "investment" that the school would be making in that freshman. I took Sean's "Earned Loss" for 2016 and adjusted for the impact of the average financial aid. The losses are still significant but reduced by as much as 55.5% in the case of Maine. (Sorry folks can't figure out how to make it look pretty!)

Again, you're not getting the point. If a school has a fixed financial aid budget, the opportunity cost of admitting an athlete on scholarship as opposed to a regular freshman is the entire cost of tuition, not the cost of the tuition discounted by the average financial aid. If that hypothetical regular freshman were to get any financial aid, it would not be an additional cost to the school; it would come from the amount of financial aid given to other incoming freshmen being reduced by that amount. The school wouldn't be making, to use your term, any additional net investment in its student body. There is no reduction to make.
 
Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

Again, you're not getting the point. If a school has a fixed financial aid budget, the opportunity cost of admitting an athlete on scholarship as opposed to a regular freshman is the entire cost of tuition, not the cost of the tuition discounted by the average financial aid. If that hypothetical regular freshman were to get any financial aid, it would not be an additional cost to the school; it would come from the amount of financial aid given to other incoming freshmen being reduced by that amount. The school wouldn't be making, to use your term, any additional net investment in its student body. There is no reduction to make.

I completely get your point. However, I said I'm simply putting this out there to have a little fun and provoke discussion (clearly its working).

If the variance is small enough (adding 5-6 students - typical freshman class for a hockey team), it won't alter the average significantly when the total freshman class is 500, 600 or 1000 students. And before you say it, yes I understand that if we did this across all sports then the impact to the average becomes material. I'm just messing around with numbers.
 
Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

I completely get your point. However, I said I'm simply putting this out there to have a little fun and provoke discussion (clearly its working).

If the variance is small enough (adding 5-6 students - typical freshman class for a hockey team), it won't alter the average significantly when the total freshman class is 500, 600 or 1000 students. And before you say it, yes I understand that if we did this across all sports then the impact to the average becomes material. I'm just messing around with numbers.

I'm not sure what the point of trying to create discussion with numbers you recognize are meaningless is, but have at it.
 
Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

But would the school get the additional students if they did not offer sports?
 
Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

But would the school get the additional students if they did not offer sports?

Are you saying that students pick their school based on sports?
Please cite the reference to the data that backs that up.
I was a huge Gopher fan, starting in about 5th grade, not surprisingly particularly hockey. I attended games back in the old barn when half full was a good crowd, long before it was the Friday/Saturday social scene it is now. They even had a couple Canadians playing for them.
When I was deciding on a college in high school, the school sport teams were the farthest thing from my mind, what programs did the school have and were there lots of pretty girls.
Did I mention girls? Sports were the farthest thing from my mind. Everybody I knew was the same.
 
Are you saying that students pick their school based on sports?
Please cite the reference to the data that backs that up.
I was a huge Gopher fan, starting in about 5th grade, not surprisingly particularly hockey. I attended games back in the old barn when half full was a good crowd, long before it was the Friday/Saturday social scene it is now. They even had a couple Canadians playing for them.
When I was deciding on a college in high school, the school sport teams were the farthest thing from my mind, what programs did the school have and were there lots of pretty girls.
Did I mention girls? Sports were the farthest thing from my mind. Everybody I knew was the same.
You missed the point.

The athletes. If you had 10,000 beds, would they all be filled if there were not the athletes to fill some of them.

In other words, would admissions be able to fill the athletes' beds if there were no athletes.
 
Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

You missed the point.

The athletes. If you had 10,000 beds, would they all be filled if there were not the athletes to fill some of them.

In other words, would admissions be able to fill the athletes' beds if there were no athletes.

That's an interesting thought. I understand pokechecker's perspective but the success of the D1 football/basketball programs at some of the big schools has elevated their standing and prestige in the general population. So IMO there must be some impact, I guess the question is how much and how do you measure it.
 
Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

You missed the point.

The athletes. If you had 10,000 beds, would they all be filled if there were not the athletes to fill some of them.

In other words, would admissions be able to fill the athletes' beds if there were no athletes.
Let me put the kibosh to this immediately. Of the 62 schools for which I have information the averaged number of participants in all sports per school is 654, and this includes duplicates, so the number of actual student-athletes is less. The highest number of participants reported was 1,497 by Lindenwood in 2015 and the fewest was 143 by Alaska in 2010. So, same question, but can the schools fill 150-1,500 beds. I used the IPEDS site to obtain applicant, admission and enrollment data for the 63 schools that sponsored hockey for any years from 2009-16. Using that data I created another spreadsheet which lists total participants, applicants, admissions and enrollment for each school for each year that they sponsored hockey.

The first thing is every school accepted far more applicants than actually enrolled for each year. If enrollment is capped than a school only needs to increase the cap and would likely be able to fill the athletes spots from the pool of accepted students.

If enrollment is not capped many schools would likely still have little to no problem filling every spot taken by an athlete as the number of rejections comfortably exceeds the total number of athletic participants for all grades. Some of the schools might need to lower standards, but their pools of rejected applicants are large enough to offset the number of incoming athletes. The main exceptions would be AIC, Bemidji State, Lake Superior State, Lindenwood, Mercyhurst, Merrimack, Minnesota State, Robert Morris and St. Cloud State, all which have a very small number of rejections, some years less than their total number of participants. The two Alaska schools did not report numbers for 2010-2015, so determining their numbers is limited to just two years: 2009-10 and 2015-16.

Sean
 
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Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

so what have you learned by gathering all this data?
summarize it for us (hopefully something beyond hockey is expensive)
 
Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

Let me put the kibosh to this immediately. .......
If enrollment is not capped many schools would likely still have little to no problem filling every spot taken by an athlete as the number of rejections comfortably exceeds the total number of athletic participants for all grades. Some of the schools might need to lower standards, .......

An interesting thing is happening in New York. Free tuition this fall for any New York resident.

http://www.timesunion.com/7day-brea...lify-for-New-York-s-free-tuition-11176914.php

So what is going to happen to the private schools in New York as far as their applications and admissions from in state students? State University of New York is going to have no issues attracting students. Can the same be said for the private colleges? Do they have to spend more time attracting out of state or foreign students. Only time is gonna tell on this one.

And who is footing the bill for this program. Hmmmmmmm!!!
 
Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

An interesting thing is happening in New York. Free tuition this fall for any New York resident.

http://www.timesunion.com/7day-brea...lify-for-New-York-s-free-tuition-11176914.php

So what is going to happen to the private schools in New York as far as their applications and admissions from in state students? State University of New York is going to have no issues attracting students. Can the same be said for the private colleges? Do they have to spend more time attracting out of state or foreign students. Only time is gonna tell on this one.

And who is footing the bill for this program. Hmmmmmmm!!!

This will also have an impact on recruiting for all sports. particularly at the D3 level. Go out of state and get some academic scholarships/financial aid or stay in state and get a free education. Do the SUNY schools become stronger over time by keeping their athletes in state?
 
Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

so what have you learned by gathering all this data?
summarize it for us (hopefully something beyond hockey is expensive)
I have already written several posts about what I have learned, but bottom line: hockey is cheap, not expensive.

Of the 29 DI schools that have football and men's and/or women's hockey only two (North Dakota, 20.4%; Maine, 10.2%) averaged more than 10% on men's hockey, with the range between 1.5% and 9.1%. None averaged more than 7.0% on women's hockey, ranging from said 7.0% down to 1.1%. Of the 11 DI schools without football men's hockey ranged from UMass Lowell's 17.7% (but failing as they transitioned to DI) to Mercyhurst's 9.2%. For women's teams it ranges from 6.4% to 11.3%. For DII/DIII schools for men it ranges from AIC's 7.4% to Colorado College's 38.4%, well for women it ranges from 4.5% to 19.6%.

I have also learned that every single school spends more on men's programs than they do on women's programs.

I have further learned that North Dakota supports their men's team at a level that none of the other DI schools do for their men's teams.

Finally, I have learned that the success of Minnesota's and Wisconsin's women's teams appears to be causing an increase in overall expenditures on women's hockey by the rest of the schools that sponsor the sport.

Sean
 
An interesting thing is happening in New York. Free tuition this fall for any New York resident.

http://www.timesunion.com/7day-brea...lify-for-New-York-s-free-tuition-11176914.php

So what is going to happen to the private schools in New York as far as their applications and admissions from in state students? State University of New York is going to have no issues attracting students. Can the same be said for the private colleges? Do they have to spend more time attracting out of state or foreign students. Only time is gonna tell on this one.

And who is footing the bill for this program. Hmmmmmmm!!!

Clarkson has about 100 less in this year's first year class. They point to Gov. Cuomo.

That's about $3 million less in income (figuring the average Bill is $30K).
 
An interesting thing is happening in New York. Free tuition this fall for any New York resident.

http://www.timesunion.com/7day-brea...lify-for-New-York-s-free-tuition-11176914.php

So what is going to happen to the private schools in New York as far as their applications and admissions from in state students? State University of New York is going to have no issues attracting students. Can the same be said for the private colleges? Do they have to spend more time attracting out of state or foreign students. Only time is gonna tell on this one.

And who is footing the bill for this program. Hmmmmmmm!!!

There are a lot of caveats to that "free" education which might not in the end make it so "free" anymore...
 
Are you saying that students pick their school based on sports?

Absolutely some do.

When I was picking a school, I had three criteria:
1) It had to be a small school.
2) It had to have a good computer science program.
3) It had to have a hockey team.

My Uncle picked Syracuse because he was leaning towards a big school with a big time football program ... even though he didn't play. (I think he majored in Engineering.)

I know people who specifically only look at huge schools like Big Ten schools because they can offer so much including multiple sports programs, even if they don't play.

Prospective students look for different things in their overall college experience, and for some, sports is a major part of that experience.
 
There are a lot of caveats to that "free" education which might not in the end make it so "free" anymore...

True, but in the area where we went to college there are a lot of families who could take advantage of the program.

Gripes Russell, those were my criteria, too!!!
 
Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

Clarkson has about 100 less in this year's first year class. They point to Gov. Cuomo.
Looking at my spreadsheet Clarkson's incoming enrollment ranged from a low of 712 in 2010 to a high of 851 the following year (year on spreadsheet is end of school year, i.e., 2011 is the 2010-11 school year). Do you know if the school wanted higher and lower enrollments those years?

Sean
 
Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

I have already written several posts about what I have learned, but bottom line: hockey is cheap, not expensive.

Of the 29 DI schools that have football and men's and/or women's hockey only two (North Dakota, 20.4%; Maine, 10.2%) averaged more than 10% on men's hockey, with the range between 1.5% and 9.1%. None averaged more than 7.0% on women's hockey, ranging from said 7.0% down to 1.1%. Of the 11 DI schools without football men's hockey ranged from UMass Lowell's 17.7% (but failing as they transitioned to DI) to Mercyhurst's 9.2%. For women's teams it ranges from 6.4% to 11.3%. For DII/DIII schools for men it ranges from AIC's 7.4% to Colorado College's 38.4%, well for women it ranges from 4.5% to 19.6%.

I have also learned that every single school spends more on men's programs than they do on women's programs.

I have further learned that North Dakota supports their men's team at a level that none of the other DI schools do for their men's teams.

Finally, I have learned that the success of Minnesota's and Wisconsin's women's teams appears to be causing an increase in overall expenditures on women's hockey by the rest of the schools that sponsor the sport.

Sean

using % of expenditure means nothing as a measure of whether a sport is expensive or not
as for your other findings, duh, you had to go to all that work to come to that conclusion?
oh well, it is your time
 
Value of Players

Value of Players

I posted this over on the men's forum in response to the below post on my thread there, but it really belongs in the women's forum so I'm also posting it here. My NCAA financials should be updated for 2017 & 2018 soon.

Yes, that year was an anomaly, but it was also used by an economics professor to talk about how horribly UW exploited Hilary Knight LINK
Thanks for the link, it was an interesting article. However, I really expect better from a professor of economics. My first issue is that he apparently didn’t bother to actually look at all the information available in the EADA reports. Limited as they are he should have noticed that for 22 schools the revenue for women’s hockey equaled the expenses, for 9 schools expenses exceed revenue (8 by more than $300,000), and for just 6 schools revenue exceed expenses (one by just a dollar, so really it can be counted with the 22 schools that balanced the books). Furthermore, looking at EADA reported revenue for all the schools together shows that Minnesota reported just $389,769 for 2016(-17), less than every school except Ohio State. That one of the most successful programs generated less revenue than 34 other programs, including Sacred Heart and Holy Cross, is cause for taking a closer look and doing further research. If he had done so he should have noticed that on the EADA reports team revenues usually equal team expenses for the non-revenue sports. The Chronicle of Higher Education’s article on college sports clearly considered student fees, direct local, state and federal government support, and direct and indirect institutional support all forms of subsidies to athletic departments. I have followed that in my earned revenue and earned profit/loss columns, in which those revenue categories are subtracted from the reported overall revenues for each school to determine the true earned revenues for each team each year. Using this a baseline results in a very different numbers.

And while understandable, he used the wrong year of data for the value of the players as seniors. The EADA custom reports use when the school year starts (i.e., for the 2011-12 school year the EADA custom reports are all identified as 2011). That means that the revenue number he used to calculate what each player mentioned should have received was for the year after they graduated, except those that graduated in 2017 (which he accidentally got correct).

He also decided that every player on the U.S. national team was the best player on her NCAA team her senior year. So he has 3 BC players all the best for 2017 and 2 the best for 2015, 3 Minnesota players the best for 2017 and 2 the best for 2016, while North Dakota has 2 the best for 2013. Usually only one can be the best on her team in a given year and if all were truly equal then they should be using a lower multiplier. Furthermore, he equates the highest paid NHL player with the best NHL player, which is certainly open to debate. I also disagree with his valuation of each player as the best on her school team based on her being on her country’s Olympic team.

While I believe that his valuation method is flawed, I will use it so I can do a direct comparison using the revenue numbers reported to the NCAA. Of the 23 players identified in the article, 16 played for public schools for which the actual NCAA financial reports are available. These reports clearly show that the EADA reported revenue is usually equal to the total expenses for each team and that the actual reported revenue was either much lower or include the previously mentioned subsidies. I have created a spreadsheet that shows all 23 players, the worth Professor Berri placed on them, their correct EADA worth and for those that played for public schools, their NCAA revenue and earned revenue worth. I have also included the average and maximum value of each public schools scholarships and average meals allowance, plus the variance between their EADA worth, NCAA revenue and earned revenue worth and what they likely received in scholarships and meal allowances. For the 7 that played for private schools I have estimated what they likely received in scholarships.

I also have two lines for both Hillary Knight and Brianna Decker since for their senior seasons Wisconsin reported extremely large contribution amounts to women’s hockey. A close look at their expenses seems to indicate that most of these contributions were used to pay down the debt on LeBahn Arena and should probably not be included as part of their earned revenue amount for either season. Therefore, I have only counted $144,000 in contributions for each year (the average for the other 7 years for which I have data) for those two years to reflect that. If you include the total contributions then you can claim that both were horribly exploited by Wisconsin, but if you exclude them then both players ended up receiving slightly more in scholarships than they were worth.

In the article Professor Berri states that for 2015-16 (actually 2016-17) if the 36 (actually 37; it appears he missed Merrimack) schools gave 50% of their revenue to the players that would have been $21.7 million divided among 845 players, for an average of $25,682. Including Merrimack the amount would have been $22.5 million divided among 870 players, for an average of $25,853. When using the NCAA revenue numbers for the 13 public schools and the EADA revenue numbers for the 24 private schools 50% of reported revenue would have been $20.46 million divided among 870 players, for an average of $23,518. Yet using the actual scholarships and meal allowance amounts for the 13 public schools and the estimated scholarship amounts for the 24 private schools the players received about $22.845 million divided among 870 players, for an average of $26,259. However the earned revenue of the 13 public schools was just $3.2 million, 50% of which was just $ 1.6 million divided among the 312 players for an average of $5,106. That is far less than the $9.2 million the schools gave out to 312 players in scholarships and meal allowances, an average of $29,509.

However, the article really focused on the top players, not the bottom players. Taking a look at the specific examples it gives, I'll start with Jocelyne Lamoureux-Davidson. The article states that she would have been paid $112,961 by North Dakota in 2013. However, using the NCAA report and not the EADA shows a startling difference. North Dakota reported to the NCAA that its women's hockey team generated $99,931 in revenue in 2013. The players would receive 50% of that revenue if the school followed the NHL model. So the players would have received $49,965.5 in revenue. The NCAA reported there were 26 participants on the team. So each member would — on average — be paid $1,921.75‬. As the best player, though, Lamoureux-Davidson would be paid 4.87 times that amount. That works out to $9,365, or about half the cost of attending North Dakota for one year (UND’s 2013 NCAA report shows the school gave out $395,327 in aid for 20.55 scholarship equivalencies, an average of $19,237 per full scholarship). If the amount was split equally among all 26 players it would be an average of $15,205, but it was actually only split among 23 players, an average of $17,188. However, it is likely Lamoureux-Davidson received the full scholarship amount of $19,237. In sum, Lamoureux-Davidson was not exploited by North Dakota in 2013. BTW, Profesor Berri doesn’t bring up why, if women’s hockey is so profitable, North Dakota dropped the sport to save money.

If we follow those same steps for each member of Team USA, here is what each player would have been paid had her school followed the NHL approach in her last year in school:
Hilary Knight – excluding LeBahn contribution (Wisconsin, 2012): $35,136
Meghan Duggan (Wisconsin, 2011): $26,932
Kendall Coyne (Northeastern, 2016): $?
Megan Keller (Boston College, 2017): $?
Cayla Barnes (Boston College, 2017): $?
Kali Flanagan (Boston College, 2017): $?
Alex Carpenter (Boston College, 2015): $?
Emily Pfalzer (Boston College, 2015): $?
Maddie Rooney (Minnesota-Duluth, 2017): $29,393
Amanda Pelkey (Vermont, 2015): $3,677
Monique Lamoureux-Morando (North Dakota: 2013): $9,365
Nicole Hensley (Lindenwood, 2017): $?
Alex Rigsby (Wisconsin, 2014): $43,502
Brianna Decker – excluding LeBahn contribution (Wisconsin, 2013): $31,297
Megan Bozek (Minnesota, 2013): $68,583
Kacey Bellamy (New Hampshire, 2009): $19,099
Gigi Marvin (Minnesota, 2009): $16,100
Amanda Kessel (Minnesota, 2016): $34,171
Hannah Brandt (Minnesota, 2016): $34,171
Dani Cameranesi (Minnesota, 2017): $36,528
Lee Stecklein (Minnesota, 2017): $36,528
Kelly Pannek (Minnesota, 2017): $36,528

The average pay to these women who played for public schools — if their schools followed the NHL model — would be $29,398. The average scholarship and meal allowance these women did receive was $31,937 and the minimum average scholarship and meal allowance these women received when the estimated scholarship values for the 7 private schools is factored in was $39,553.

All of this tells us that a free market, or a market where schools were free to pay their athletes whatever they like, wouldn't just result in higher pay for men's basketball players and football players. Either non-revenue sports would be dropped, or the players would be expected to pay for most or all of their education. And that would lead to fewer opportunities for women and men to participate in sports while in college.

Sean
 
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Re: Value of Players

Re: Value of Players

even today, if the Badgers sold out every game that would only be about 1/4 million at best in revenue from tickets, I get that people from WI like brats and cheese, but they'd have to eat a heckuva lot of it to give them an additional 7 million in revenue

now if they sold beer at LaBahn I'd believe the $7 million in revenue, but they don't
 
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