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Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

A hot topic that seems to be making the rounds on Facebook the last couple days is "Take the High School Quiz", which tests an adult's ability to answer questions that a current high school senior be able to answer, in a variety of areas (chemistry, algebra, physics, etc.).

One of the questions (to which I am sure many adults would leap to an incorrect conclusion) is this:

Q: A horse runs a two-lap race around a circular track. During the first lap, its average speed is 20 miles per hour. What must the horse's average speed be during the second lap so its average speed over the course of the entire two-lap race is 40 m.p.h.?

In light of the method used to answer the above question, I'll pose another one (see below, not on the Quiz). The parameters are different, but should the thinking used to solve this one be the same?

Q: Larry is missing a concert ticket to a show he's been waiting months to see. If he doesn't leave his home in half an hour, he won't get there on time. The only thing he knows for a certainty is it's in a pocket in a pair of pants he owns. He also knows that he hasn't done laundry since he bought the ticket a week ago. The one thing about Larry, though, is when something goes missing, it always ends up being in the last likely place he mentally lists, which is this: He owns 11 pairs of pants, all of which have four pockets (two front, two back).

He now goes on his search, and for the first 15 minutes, he manages to search at an average rate of 40 pockets per hour. Is it possible for him to find his concert ticket on time?



Bonus: What is the ESSENTIAL difference between the first and second question?
Well, since you phrased it as "is it *possible*" for him to find the ticket?" - of course it is possible, since it might be in the very next pocket he searches. Unless you meant to stipulate that it will definitely be in the 44th pocket that he gets to, in which case he won't have time. I don't really understand how this is supposed to be a trick question.
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

Well, since you phrased it as "is it *possible*" for him to find the ticket?" - of course it is possible, since it might be in the very next pocket he searches. Unless you meant to stipulate that it will definitely be in the 44th pocket that he gets to, in which case he won't have time. I don't really understand how this is supposed to be a trick question.
Not a trick question - all the premises are there in the question. Yes, you can conclude that the 44th pocket contains the ticket. Also, note the phrase "for the first 15 minutes".
 
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Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

A hot topic that seems to be making the rounds on Facebook the last couple days is "Take the High School Quiz", which tests an adult's ability to answer questions that a current high school senior be able to answer, in a variety of areas (chemistry, algebra, physics, etc.).

One of the questions (to which I am sure many adults would leap to an incorrect conclusion) is this:

Q: A horse runs a two-lap race around a circular track. During the first lap, its average speed is 20 miles per hour. What must the horse's average speed be during the second lap so its average speed over the course of the entire two-lap race is 40 m.p.h.?

In light of the method used to answer the above question, I'll pose another one (see below, not on the Quiz). The parameters are different, but should the thinking used to solve this one be the same?

Q: Larry is missing a concert ticket to a show he's been waiting months to see. If he doesn't leave his home in half an hour, he won't get there on time. The only thing he knows for a certainty is it's in a pocket in a pair of pants he owns. He also knows that he hasn't done laundry since he bought the ticket a week ago. The one thing about Larry, though, is when something goes missing, it always ends up being in the last likely place he mentally lists, which is this: He owns 11 pairs of pants, all of which have four pockets (two front, two back).

He now goes on his search, and for the first 15 minutes, he manages to search at an average rate of 40 pockets per hour. Is it possible for him to find his concert ticket on time?



Bonus: What is the ESSENTIAL difference between the first and second question?

My answers are in white:

The first one is what we used to call an "old chestnut"; I've seen it in many forms over the years. The horse has to complete the second lap instantaneously.

The second question, if we assume that the ticket is for sure in one of the 11 pairs of pants, means that he MIGHT be able to make it to the concert on time, as long as his travel time to the concert is longer than thirty-six minutes and he isn't the driver, because he can put on a pair of pants without searching the pockets in that pair until after they are already on their way, and he also can carry five pairs of unsearched pants with him and search those on his way to the concert.
 
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Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

A hot topic that seems to be making the rounds on Facebook the last couple days is "Take the High School Quiz", which tests an adult's ability to answer questions that a current high school senior be able to answer, in a variety of areas (chemistry, algebra, physics, etc.).

One of the questions (to which I am sure many adults would leap to an incorrect conclusion) is this:

Q: A horse runs a two-lap race around a circular track. During the first lap, its average speed is 20 miles per hour. What must the horse's average speed be during the second lap so its average speed over the course of the entire two-lap race is 40 m.p.h.?

Pretty sure it's impossible. Can't double your speed, if you've burnt half your distance.

Assume a mile track. The first lap is 20mph, so it takes three minutes.

If the goal is a 40 mph average, then with a two mile distance you need to average 1.5 minutes per lap. Since you've used three minutes total already, it's impossible.
 
Not a trick question - all the premises are there in the question. Yes, you can conclude that the 44th pocket contains the ticket. Also, note the phrase "for the first 15 minutes".

It's kind of vaguely worded. Of course it's theoretically possible. I'm too lazy to do the math, but he's searched 10 pockets in 15 minutes, so he'll need to search 34 over the next 15 minutes. Logically possible as a purely mathematical question? Sure. Realistically possible? Not enough information available to make that call.
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

Not a trick question - all the propositions are there in the question. Yes, you can conclude that the 44th pocket contains the ticket. Also, note the phrase "for the first 15 minutes".
Right, so at the end of 15 minutes, he's only searched 10 pockets. There's nothing in the problem to indicate that the rate of searching will change (though in the real world, it would undoubtedly go *down*, since he would surely search the easy-to-get-to and easy-to-find pairs of pants first), so it will take *at least* a total of 66 minutes (40/60*44) to get to the 44th pocket. He only had 30 minutes, so he will leave at least 66-30 = 36 minutes late.

Doesn't seem to be related to the "average speed" problem to me at all, since you didn't specify that he could arbitrarily change his speed for the second "phase" of his search the way the car is allowed to.
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

Seems like I'm in a minority on the pants pocket question....others are making an assumption that is not necessarily the case:

nowhere does it say that he has to have found the ticket before he leaves for the concert. He can continue his search while he travels.
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

Seems like I'm in a minority on the pants pocket question....others are making an assumption that is not necessarily the case:

I agree with you. To me the essential difference is that the first question can't be done, the second can't be answered.
 
It's kind of vaguely worded. Of course it's theoretically possible. I'm too lazy to do the math, but he's searched 10 pockets in 15 minutes, so he'll need to search 34 over the next 15 minutes. Logically possible as a purely mathematical question? Sure. Realistically possible? Not enough information available to make that call.

After reading the other answers, I get what you're going for on the bonus question. The essential difference is the first one you're trying to hit a targeted rate, the latter you're trying to hit a targeted time.You can increase speed to infinity in theory to hit a given time, but you can't decrease time infinitely to hit a certain velocity.

D/T=V, so D/V=T. As V gets bigger, T gets smaller.
 
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Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

Seems like I'm in a minority on the pants pocket question....others are making an assumption that is not necessarily the case:

nowhere does it say that he has to have found the ticket before he leaves for the concert. He can continue his search while he travels.
You're making an assumption, too. What if he lives in an apartment above the concert venue and his door opens onto a busy street? Then he'd have to have pants on to leave and he wouldn't have enough time en route to even search one more pocket (1.5 mintues). Your solution only works for a subset of possible problems that could be described using the words FreshFish provided; it's not the general solution.
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

1. I can't help but think that people read something into Part II that wasn't there. Just because the premises don't specifically include "he can change his rate-of-search" doesn't mean he can't change his rate of search ... he may have felt he was doing a great job until he realized 15 minutes in that he'd better speed things up.

2. Missing fact I need to add for clafification: Let's just say that once he leaves for the concert, it'll be impractical for him to continue his search because he's driving alone. :o
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

1. I can't help but think that people read something into Part II that wasn't there. Just because the premises don't specifically include "he can change his rate-of-search" doesn't mean he can't change his rate of search ... he may have felt he was doing a great job until he realized 15 minutes in that he'd better speed things up.

2. Missing fact I need to add for clafification: Let's just say that once he leaves for the concert, it'll be impractical for him to continue his search because he's driving alone. :o
Then the question should have been posed in the same way as the car problem: "what would his rate of search need to be in the "second half" in order to find the ticket?"

"Is it possible?" is way too vague and allows for all kinds of "creative" solutions. Maybe he has 10 friends who can come over on a moment's notice to help search, etc. If you want us to calculate the rate he'd need to search the remaining pockets, all you have to do is ask. :)
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

You're making an assumption, too.

seems to me that "if" is a conditional, not an assumption ..."he might be able to, provided that...."

the question was, is it "possible" and the answer was "maybe, provided certain conditions are met" (or as you phrased it, a subset of possible solutions).
 
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Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

Then the question should have been posed in the same way as the car problem: "what would his rate of search need to be in the "second half" in order to find the ticket?"

Totally concur. That would have been completely clear, and lend itself to a solution. Then your math in post # 106 would have provided an answer, and the difference between the two problems would be that a less-than-infinitely fast search rate would suffice in the second problem, compared to requiring an instantaneous 2nd lap in the first problem.

in 15 minutes he searched 10 pockets, so in the next 15 minutes he'd need to search 34 pockets or 136 pockets per hour. Perhaps desperation would provide the adrenaline he needed to search faster.
 
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Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

Pretty sure it's impossible. Can't double your speed, if you've burnt half your distance.

Assume a mile track. The first lap is 20mph, so it takes three minutes.

If the goal is a 40 mph average, then with a two mile distance you need to average 1.5 minutes per lap. Since you've used three minutes total already, it's impossible.

The jockey, Jean-Luc Picard, radios O'Brien and has the horse beamed to the finish line. Problem solved. :)
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

I've never really heard before, but on The Price Is Right, do people win the small prizes they bid on when going for bigger prizes? Like the 4 items you bid on to win hole punches to win cash and a car.

I always assumed not. But they do call them "prizes".


eta: I dunno if it's a rerun, but they just played "The Check Game".
 
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Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

If you've seen this one before, my apologies. The first time I heard it, it bedeviled me for hours, until the "aha" moment came.

A person walks into a hardware store, looking for a common item that is used in most houses.

"Ah, I see that the item is $1.50 for each one," he says.
-- that's right.

"So, then, 57 would be $3.00?"
-- right again.

"Okay, then, I'll take 132."
-- That will be $4.50.


What did s/he buy?
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

I've never really heard before, but on The Price Is Right, do people win the small prizes they bid on when going for bigger prizes? Like the 4 items you bid on to win hole punches to win cash and a car.

I always assumed not. But they do call them "prizes".

Yes they do.
 
I've never really heard before, but on The Price Is Right, do people win the small prizes they bid on when going for bigger prizes? Like the 4 items you bid on to win hole punches to win cash and a car.

I always assumed not. But they do call them "prizes".


eta: I dunno if it's a rerun, but they just played "The Check Game".

Yes.
 
Re: Monty Hall, we have a PROBLEM

If you've seen this one before, my apologies. The first time I heard it, it bedeviled me for hours, until the "aha" moment came.

A person walks into a hardware store, looking for a common item that is used in most houses.

"Ah, I see that the item is $1.50 for each one," he says.
-- that's right.

"So, then, 57 would be $3.00?"
-- right again.

"Okay, then, I'll take 132."
-- That will be $4.50.


What did s/he buy?

A calculator.
 
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