Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

[Still A Game]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

The question here is whether the Minnesota girls are better or the selection committee is more partial to Minnesota girls because they are personally biased and the camp is held in Minnesota. It's interesting to note that when the camp moved to Minnesota that the percentage of Minnesota girls selected went up significantly. This was demonstrated on another thread at some point but I can't find it now (maybe deleted). I think there is a clear bias towards MN girls at USA Hockey (and clear bias against New England/Mass girls), but that is my personal opinion.

The people involved in selecting these players are no more from Minnesota than anywhere else. In fact more are from elsewhere than Minnesota. Let's hold the camp in Dallas and see if we get a bunch of Texans in the all-star game.

 

[Hockeydad4two]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Another example of Minny's hockey approach working... 17 out of 40 girls selected to the 1995/96 All-Star Game are from Minnesota. In the 1996 All- Star game 12 out of 30 were from the State of Hockey, Minnesota! Pretty awesome percentage. Was anyone in St. Cloud this year?

One calendar year at the camp does not make a dynasty. Let's review at 3 and 5 years. Then you may have something.

 

[Call It]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

One calendar year at the camp does not make a dynasty. Let's review at 3 and 5 years. Then you may have something.

Or we could see in a couple of weeks when the 1997 & 1998 camp is held. That would give a four year sample size. I don't know who picks this. Is Ben Smith Involved anymore? Perhaps it is the u18 coach.

 

[brookyone]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Perhaps another measure would be to simply look at D-I commitments as wider view of possible benefits of the hockey approach and perspective in Minnesota. Then possibly make your own conclusions regarding any connection to the national program.

I'm not really inline with the preferential or bias theory rather than genuine legitimacy and warranted selections. Don't suppose that surprises anyone.

 

[joehockey]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Winny Brodt has a great summer hockey group going again at the College Skates over at SPA Drake Arena with both D1 and D3 sessions. http://www.oshockey.org/page/show/436646-college-skate

 

[westcoast]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Someone doesn't know what they're talking about....
http://www.winter-hawks.org/page/show/196567-grads

and more to come with the ivies.....

 

[westcoast]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

As I noted it is true that a few NAHA players make it to the schools you mention (around 1 a year out of 10 or so). You'll quite possibly see less and less of this from the Ivies however - the minimum academic index at the Ivies was raised this past year and several coaches (including at least 2 of the schools you list) have told me that they won't actively recruit at NAHA anymore because the admissions departments at their respective schools think very little of the NAHA approach academically and it is not a revenue producing sport (unlike men's hockey) that they are willing to reach for.

Totally agree though that you make any experience what it is based on your outlook and effort and definitely expect the occasional NAHA player to continue to go to an Ivy league school (particularly Harvard, although they seem to have settled in on the Nobles/Assabet route for their players).

Someone doesn't know what they're talking about....
http://www.winter-hawks.org/page/show/196567-grads

and more to come with the ivies.....

 

[AggiesHockey]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Another perspective on the Minnesota Hockey approach is one was emphasized at length at a Level 4 USA Hockey coaching clinic I took two years ago. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but in general terms:

Community-based, skill-focused coaching, combined with multi-sport athlete development is highly beneficial to developing youth athletes. This approach also leads to much greater player retention, so by the time our little mites grow up to be high school players, we haven't weeded too many of them from the sport.

In contrast, elite club teams at squirt / U10 ages and above are detrimental to player development and player retention. The elite model starts with the best intentions ("little Johnny or Natalie needs to play with the best so she can develop into her potential"), but the results range from mixed to downright detrimental to youth athlete development. Regions of the country where club teams, rather than community based teams, are the model suffer much higher rates of player drop-out. Hard to develop little Natalie if she leaves the sport after a couple seasons.

I agree with USA Hockey 100% on this. The sooner the rest of the states learn that message, the sooner they'll challenge Minnesota for hockey supremacy.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Someone doesn't know what they're talking about....
http://www.winter-hawks.org/page/show/196567-grads

and more to come with the ivies.....

One kid to Dartmouth doesn't make a trend (congratulations to her, though!) nor is in conflict with what I wrote ("definitely expect the occasional NAHA player to continue to go to an Ivy league school "). So not sure that this demonstrates that I'm clueless....yet

 

[GC2]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

HockeyEast33,
While I would not say your clueless, I would say your logic is suspect. It's a huge leap to infer that because there are only a few NAHA girls each year that choose Ivy's, that the education of girls attending there is flawed. I know for a fact that over the last 5 years many of the girls had the grades to go Ivy but for many reasons, elected other programs and never even considered them. Cost (lack of scholarships), program quality (or lack there of), the late recruiting process, and the programs themselves are all factors. Not everybody wants to go Ivy nor is it some magic benchmark of success in education.

 

[Call It]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Another perspective on the Minnesota Hockey approach is one was emphasized at length at a Level 4 USA Hockey coaching clinic I took two years ago. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but in general terms:

Community-based, skill-focused coaching, combined with multi-sport athlete development is highly beneficial to developing youth athletes. This approach also leads to much greater player retention, so by the time our little mites grow up to be high school players, we haven't weeded too many of them from the sport.

In contrast, elite club teams at squirt / U10 ages and above are detrimental to player development and player retention. The elite model starts with the best intentions ("little Johnny or Natalie needs to play with the best so she can develop into her potential"), but the results range from mixed to downright detrimental to youth athlete development. Regions of the country where club teams, rather than community based teams, are the model suffer much higher rates of player drop-out. Hard to develop little Natalie if she leaves the sport after a couple seasons.

I agree with USA Hockey 100% on this. The sooner the rest of the states learn that message, the sooner they'll challenge Minnesota for hockey supremacy.

This is so true!!!!!!

 

[GC2]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

I really don't understand all the NAHA and similar program bashing going on. What about all the players that don't live in big hockey states who have talent and want to develop to the next level? What happens to them? We should all be embracing any successful womens hockey program be it SSM, NAHA, or others. They expand the opportunity of womens hockey for players across the nation; create role models demonstrating what hard work can achieve for younger girls (and parents) when back home; and generally elevate the sport nationally. I realize people in MN are rightfully proud of their hockey but to bash programs (and by default the kids that utilize them) seems a bit self-serving. In case you haven't noticed, higher level women's hockey is continually under fire, it's our job as fans of the sport to help ensure as much growth and national diversity for women's hockey as we can.

 

[Hockeydad4two]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Obviously, the Minnesota approach works in Minnesota. They have rinks galore! But what about Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Iowa, Missouri .... We don't have the rinks in every community nor the kind of support required to build them. That means that some of us had to travel outside of our communities to even have a chance to play. How does the Minnesota system fit in this case?

 

[Still A Game]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Hockeydad is right in that geography plays a huge part in what works best. The irony is that many people in Minnesota are looking at the club hockey other areas are basically forced to play, and think that's the way to go in Minnesota. Grass is always greener syndrome.

 

[ARM]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

The irony is that many people in Minnesota are looking at the club hockey other areas are basically forced to play, and think that's the way to go in Minnesota.

I think that there are individual players and their families that feel that club hockey would be preferable for that player's development. I don't know that people are looking at abandoning HS hockey in favor of a club approach. HS sports are fairly ingrained in the culture.

 

[Still A Game]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

I wasn't specific enough. It's not prevelant at the high school level, but at the youth level, the complaints about community based hockey's lack of ability to develop players are rampant. Agreed, these are primarily from the parents of very young players. Hopefully they see the light before the complaints roll to the high school level.

 

[AggiesHockey]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

Obviously, the Minnesota approach works in Minnesota. They have rinks galore! But what about Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Iowa, Missouri .... We don't have the rinks in every community nor the kind of support required to build them. That means that some of us had to travel outside of our communities to even have a chance to play. How does the Minnesota system fit in this case?

Point well taken.

One of the examples that USA Hockey talked about was Illinois. I'm sure like many states, the hockey options are more limited than they are in Minnesota. But the approach used in Illinois from a very young age was not just building clubs, but building elite clubs, with the rest of the talent left to play on whatever team they could find. Lo and behold, a lot of the players that made it to elite teams at say bantam and up were not the elite players identified when they were 9, 10, and 11 years old. Somehow they stuck with the sport and got really good. I'm sure there were exceptions--kids that started out as a promising mite and stayed at the highest level of their peers all the way through. But there's also higher attrition rates. And many kids just took more time to grow & develop into the sport, and its crazy to start weeding them out at age 10.

I'm not knocking clubs per se. When you don't have the density of rinks and hockey players that we do in Minnesota, then some club model is probably the way to go. What I am knocking is trying to make elite clubs at young age levels, when the focus should be on providing a safe, fun, and developmental experience for kids. The more kids that have a great time at hockey, the better our sport will be in the long haul. I also think the cost & hours of butt time driving "elite youth" to a more intense schedule is a disservice to both the parents and the kids.

Even in Minnesota, club hockey has its place. That place is called summer hockey, especially at the older levels of youth hockey. Hopefully those kids still play other sports, and don't burn out from too much hockey year 'round. Summer AAA or club teams can be a great opportunity to match up with other kids that have similar ability and passion for the game. But it would be truly detrimental to the sport of hockey to go to an elite club model year 'round in Minnesota. The community-based & high school-based programs are the way to go, warts and all.

 

[AggiesHockey]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

I think that there are individual players and their families that feel that club hockey would be preferable for that player's development. I don't know that people are looking at abandoning HS hockey in favor of a club approach. HS sports are fairly ingrained in the culture.

Hope it stays that way. I have heard some folks saying they'll be surprised if MN HS hockey survives in its current form for another decade. They think clubs are the wave of the future. That would be a shame, IMO.

 

[AggiesHockey]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

I wasn't specific enough. It's not prevelant at the high school level, but at the youth level, the complaints about community based hockey's lack of ability to develop players are rampant. Agreed, these are primarily from the parents of very young players. Hopefully they see the light before the complaints roll to the high school level.

Yeah, hockey would be such a great sport if it weren't for parents.

Those parents should be careful what they wish for. Get an elite club team in Minny, coached by former gophers & semi pros, and watch a few families from California, Colorado, and New Jersey move into their town so their little ones can be the star on a MN Elite team. I guarantee it would happen.

 

[brookyone]

Re: Minnesota Hockey Approach & Perspective

I think that there are individual players and their families that feel that club hockey would be preferable for that player's development. I don't know that people are looking at abandoning HS hockey in favor of a club approach. HS sports are fairly ingrained in the culture.

Sure hope it stays that way. Long live high school hockey as is, or even expanded for the girls. Co-ops if need be to give all who want to play the opportunity. It's not just about the elite, IMO.

Hope it stays that way. I have heard some folks saying they'll be surprised if MN HS hockey survives in its current form for another decade. They think clubs are the wave of the future. That would be a shame, IMO.

Seconded.