Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

[5mn_Major]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Depends what you mean by impact. This team is like 30th in the PWR without him.

No question CM had a huge impact on the ice.

Its an academic discussion. But taking your positive look, the team would go from a middle of the pack in the B1G and no hardware with CM...to middle of the B1G and no hardware without him. From another perspective, the team last year was 23-12 (without him) and won the B1G and this year was 19-17 and it missed the play offs (with him). The problem is that rather than have a seasoned sophomore coming back...we need to replace him adding another freshman who typically average just 10 pts in their first year.

CM's a supremely talented guy, fully capable of moving to the next level...but his impact on the Gophers was really pretty negligible.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

With a different coaching staff? You keep crying about how much the program needs a change (and I don't necessarily disagree with you) but if that change had been made one season earlier are so so freaking sure the regression and/or lack of improvement seen for so many wouldn't have materialized different the past season?

I for one do not expect any drop off in results next year and fact am very confident they make the tournament.

Well I'm not saying that changing other variables couldn't possibly change things for the better.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

CM's a supremely talented guy, fully capable of moving to the next level...but his impact on the Gophers was really pretty negligible.

Right. McDavid's impact is negligible because he plays on a dysfunctional team as well.

 

[Koho]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Right. McDavid's impact is negligible because he plays on a dysfunctional team as well.

I agree. If the uninspired play in several of the games was due to chemistry issues with CM on the team, then one could say that effect negated the skill he added. But we don't know that and it is pure speculation. (Never heard any rumors of that, and most of what I've heard in the past is he doesn't have a super ego.) So then you judge it on what you see him bring on the ice. There were games he wasn't that noticeable, but there were others, like the last four, where he was the best player on the ice, but most of the rest of the team looked like they were skating in molasses. I don't see how you hang that on CM. Not to mention, I don't know how many times I saw him make a pass I didn't expect, and his linemate clearly didn't either, because they missed it, or mishandled it. Just seems harsh to essentially give him no credit for contribution to the team.

 

[Bonin21]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Right. McDavid's impact is negligible because he plays on a dysfunctional team as well.

Guy has 99 points. lmao

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Guy has 99 points. lmao

And CM was near a point per game on a team that had the worst PPs I've ever seen and a system that practically ensured no offense. Vanek probably wouldn't have been "impactful" on this team.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Just to be clear, I don't buy that Casey was saddled with terrible linemates - including the top goal scorer in the USHL in the last five years. Also, they frequently didn't play against the other team's top line. He should have had a tailwind in scoring.

What I'm saying is he...

Ranks down there as one of the least impactful stars in the history of the Gopher program.

Casey wasn't the least productive first round Gopher ever. But the stellar Kris Chucko did produce more than him.

Points per first round pick:
Jeff Taffe 113
Thomas Vanek 113
Tom Chorske 101
Nick Bjugstad 98
Blake Wheeler 96
Erik Rasmussen 75
Jordan Schroeder73
Patrick White 53
Phil Kessel 51
Kyle Okposo 51
Kris Chucko 34
Casey Mittelstadt30
Jim O'Brien 15

He wasn't a great college hockey player...he'll be a great pro.

 

[Bonin21]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Vanek probably wouldn't have been "impactful" on this team.

You have ZERO way to know that. Also I love the, "Without Casey, Pitlick wouldn't or the team wouldn't do this or that...", but if you say "Without Pitlick, Casey wouldn't have done this or that", it's blasphemy.

 

[Bonin21]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

He wasn't a great college hockey player...he'll be a great pro.

Exactly. He was a great player that was playing college hockey and didn't meet realistic expectations in his one year here.

Now he'll go dominate the NHL and people will say, "See he WAS great for the Gophers." like it's related somehow.

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Glad it's settled that Middlestadt is going to dominate the NHL.

 

[SteveO]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Just to be clear, I don't buy that Casey was saddled with terrible linemates - including the top goal scorer in the USHL in the last five years. Also, they frequently didn't play against the other team's top line. He should have had a tailwind in scoring.

What I'm saying is he...

Casey wasn't the least productive first round Gopher ever. But the stellar Kris Chucko did produce more than him.

Points per first round pick:
Jeff Taffe 113
Thomas Vanek 113
Tom Chorske 101
Nick Bjugstad 98
Blake Wheeler 96
Erik Rasmussen 75
Jordan Schroeder73
Patrick White 53
Phil Kessel 51
Kyle Okposo 51
Kris Chucko 34
Casey Mittelstadt30
Jim O'Brien 15

He wasn't a great college hockey player...he'll be a great pro.

Nice work! Let's face it, CM has innate talent, but at a young 19 he's still a body of work in process.

I think a lot Gopher fans thought CM would be a reload for Kloos on the Pitlick/Kloos/Sheehy line and light it up. I guess I bought into that as well. But the correlation between Kloos and CM is actually quite low (skills, style, age, experience, etc.). The line seemed to gel for a few weeks and then Sheehy was dropped to the 2nd line. Then it became Pitlick/CM/Reedy. They lasted a while and then another change. I don't think there was any consistent pairing with CM that worked. The closest was Pitlick. I attribute that to a young and talented CM still needing to develop leadership, positioning, strength and skill at the college level.

On the other side, I can see where team struggles most likely affected CM's numbers. Schierhorn did not live up to expectations this season after two seasons as Big Ten Goalie of the Year. His decline was quite a surprise to many. The PP was terrible. The D was not good and we lacked an offensive D like Bischoff (Johnson never became that guy). A lack of productive seniors was a problem compared to the previous season too.

I can see extraneous variables on both sides of the argument that led to the Gophers demise last season and CM's low production compared to other highly talented frosh that you've listed above.

 

[SteveO]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Glad it's settled that Middlestadt is going to dominate the NHL.

Point well taken. Dominating is a loaded term. What does that practically mean in the NHL? At this point I hesitate to say he will "dominate". A lot guys show promise and it just doesn't happen for 'em and then they end up somewhere in the KHL. Not saying that will happen to CM, but it does happen.

 

[Tipsy McStagger]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Point well taken. Dominating is a loaded term. What does that practically mean in the NHL? At this point I hesitate to say he will "dominate". A lot guys show promise and it just doesn't happen for 'em and then they end up somewhere in the KHL. Not saying that will happen to CM, but it does happen.

5mn_major said he will be a great pro. There's just no way you can know these things. He could be a perennial all-star, he could be out of the league in 3 years. The 8th pick is hardly a sure thing.

 

[SteveO]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

5mn_major said he will be a great pro. There's just no way you can know these things. He could be a perennial all-star, he could be out of the league in 3 years. The 8th pick is hardly a sure thing.

I agree. He's a work in progress and it's hard to predict an NHL performance outcome at this stage.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Just to be clear, I don't buy that Casey was saddled with terrible linemates - including the top goal scorer in the USHL in the last five years. Also, they frequently didn't play against the other team's top line. He should have had a tailwind in scoring.

I didn't say he was saddled with terrible linemates (at least at forward, the D is a different story). He was saddled with a terrible defensive system that sold out to play defense at the expense of offense at 5 on 5. Also that whole power play gong show.

As for the points of guys who played across different eras, some of which were much higher scoring, it's not really a valid comparison. Heck just look at the pads and style of play those goalies were playing on those Vanek highlights.

You have ZERO way to know that. Also I love the, "Without Casey, Pitlick wouldn't or the team wouldn't do this or that...", but if you say "Without Pitlick, Casey wouldn't have done this or that", it's blasphemy.

How many points did Vanek have on the power play? Take all but like 2 of those away because this power play was horrific and couldn't enter the zone half the time, adjust for better goaltending in this era, adjust for quality of teammates/system, and yeah, he almost certainly doesn't have 31 goals on this team.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

5mn_major said he will be a great pro. There's just no way you can know these things. He could be a perennial all-star, he could be out of the league in 3 years. The 8th pick is hardly a sure thing.

You kinda missed the entire point of the post. But yeah...he'll do just fine in the NHL.

 

[SteveO]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

I didn't say he was saddled with terrible linemates. He was saddled with a terrible defensive system that sold out to play defense at the expense of offense at 5 on 5. Also that whole power play gong show.

As for the points of guys who played across different eras, some of which were much higher scoring, it's not really a valid comparison. Heck just look at the pads and style of play those goalies were playing on those Vanek highlights.

Yeah, definitely high scoring era back then. Rarely see anything close to those numbers now. If you look at the freshman years ONLY he might be close to others too.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

Yeah, definitely high scoring era back then. Rarely see anything close to those numbers now. If you look at the freshman years ONLY he might be close to others too.

I forget exactly when goalie pads started shifting but I want to say it was more around 2005 or 2006. I had the old school pads all through high school and eventually bought my own modern ones as an adult in 2012

 

[SteveO]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

I forget exactly when goalie pads started shifting but I want to say it was more around 2005 or 2006. I had the old school pads all through high school and eventually bought my own modern ones as an adult in 2012

Pre-2005, the armor movement took off as available materials became lighter, stronger and waterproof. Goalies started donning customized arm and chest protection that included a nylon suit with thick blocks of foam and plastic, and shoulder flaps to shield the underarm area. Masks were a hybrid of fiberglass and epoxy resin secured to the head by a plate on the back. To gain an edge, some keepers began wearing leg pads that exceeded a width of 12 inches, prestaging an era when goaltenders looked for any advantage by inflating their equipment size.

After 2005, the NHL decided enough was enough and began requiring form-fitting jerseys and pads proportioned to a goalie’s size. Leg pads could be no wider than 11 inches. Blockers were reduced from 16” to 15” and the circumference of catching gloves was shrunk from 48” to 45” to make pucks harder to hold onto and thus create more rebounds.

But in its constant desire to increase scoring, the NHL reduced the height of leg pads by an average of two inches starting in 2013-14, and more changes are on the way.- https://www.si.com/nhl/2016/03/29/nhl-goalie-equipment-evolution-1917-to-2016

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers Season Off-Season Thread 2018

I didn't say he was saddled with terrible linemates (at least at forward, the D is a different story). He was saddled with a terrible defensive system that sold out to play defense at the expense of offense at 5 on 5. Also that whole power play gong show.

As for the points of guys who played across different eras, some of which were much higher scoring, it's not really a valid comparison. Heck just look at the pads and style of play those goalies were playing on those Vanek highlights.

How many points did Vanek have on the power play? Take all but like 2 of those away because this power play was horrific and couldn't enter the zone half the time, adjust for better goaltending in this era, adjust for quality of teammates/system, and yeah, he almost certainly doesn't have 31 goals on this team.

Still don't buy it. No, CMs performance was not due to smaller goalie pads twenty years ago. Top scorer Kyle Connor had 71 points year before last and leading scorer Peter Sjena had 79 points in Vanek's 2003. Giving 10% more points to CM puts him at 33...not earth shattering. And other NCAA freshmen this year scored more without Rem Pitlick...and I don't think the defense on Bowling Green and Michigan State was that much better than that of the Gophers. But if you want to blame the defense...I have nothing else to add.

This still has nothing to do with the original point. The Gophers have had many great prospects coming in and most have had a mark on the program. Casey Mittelstadt's broader impact on these couple of years was almost nothing...in part because he left after one year forcing us to fill his slot training in another first year player.