Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

[St. Clown]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I'm not convinced that is the slug that killed her. It's certainly possible it exited, but I think that it's possible that's one of the instances where the cops "enhanced" their case. Even if it did exit her skull, I still don't think you'd see a lot of splatter mess resulting. I've shot a lot of rabbits, birds, etc..., with a 22 caliber rifle and the power just isn't there. In fact, I think I read a book one time where they talked about Israeli assassins using 22 caliber handguns for their work because they were effective, at close range, but didn't make a ton of noise and they didn't cause this big explosive mess which might result in the killer getting tainted with the splatter. As I recall, it was a book about the efforts made to kill the '72 Olympics kidnappers.

The foremost authority on which weapon to use when committing a no-mess hit, Steve Martin's My Blue Heaven.

Vincent 'Vinnie' Antonelli: Richie loved to use 22s because the bullets are small and they don't come out the other end like a 45, see, a 45 will blow a barn door out the back of your head and there's a lot of dry cleaning involved, but a 22 will just rattle around like Pac-Man until you're dead.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I guess, I'd agree that it is possible. The part that is currently tripping me up is that even with a .22, I'd expect some kind of blood pooling from the entry wound. Maybe it is just a little bit, but there was no evidence of human blood, or of blood being cleaned up. Of course, it is possible it wasn't done in the garage either, and no one found where that puddle of blood was, or was cleaned up.

edit: actually, I'm firmly on the side of she wasn't killed in the garage or the house in any way that she would have bled. She could have been strangled in either location, or shot/stabbed/cut in a different location. I can't get past the complete lack of DNA evidence in those locations.

Yeah, I don't think there is good clean evidence of exactly what happened to her. I suppose it's even possible he had some sort of tarp or something in the garage too that he may have killed her on, then burned it. Who knows.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I guess, I'd agree that it is possible. The part that is currently tripping me up is that even with a .22, I'd expect some kind of blood pooling from the entry wound. Maybe it is just a little bit, but there was no evidence of human blood, or of blood being cleaned up. Of course, it is possible it wasn't done in the garage either, and no one found where that puddle of blood was, or was cleaned up.

edit: actually, I'm firmly on the side of she wasn't killed in the garage or the house in any way that she would have bled. She could have been strangled in either location, or shot/stabbed/cut in a different location. I can't get past the complete lack of DNA evidence in those locations.

He killed her in the torture chamber he designed while in prison, we just need Geraldo to find it.

 

[haulin oats]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Has anyone listened to the Rebutting a Murderer podcast on Iheart? Very solid counter points

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Has anyone listened to the Rebutting a Murderer podcast on Iheart? Very solid counter points

I listened to the first episode and it was hilariously terrible. You'd have to be as smart as Brendan Dassey to think the counter points in the first ep were "solid".

That said I can't speak for the other episodes.

 

[haulin oats]

I listened to the first episode and it was hilariously terrible. You'd have to be as smart as Brendan Dassey to think the counter points in the first ep were "solid".

That said I can't speak for the other episodes.

Being within 40 miles of where it happened you'd have to be as less competent than Dassey to believe that Making a Murderer is what really happened.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Being within 40 miles of where it happened you'd have to be as less competent than Dassey to believe that Making a Murderer is what really happened.

I've heard or read elsewhere that seemingly everyone who lives in the area is convinced Avery killed her, and Dassey probably helped. But I'm really curious about that. Just living within 40 miles of the scene doesn't make a person any more knowledgeable or intelligent about the events, unless they happened to serve on the jury or were involved in the cases themselves in some capacity.

In fact, since reading that, I've wondered if part of the reason for the certainty in the Manitowoc area is the extensive pre-trial publicity, courtesy of the prosecutor and law enforcement, painting a seriously one sided view of the case and evidence, and that this certainty of Avery's guilt in the Manitowoc area is just another piece of evidence that Avery and Dassey, whether guilty or not, simply could not have received a fair trial there.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Yeah ok bud. In the first episode of that podcast they conveniently glossed over the fact that 4 different asst. DA's pointed to Gregory Allen as the actual suspect and the fact that it was shot down and ignored. They also said one of Steven's alibis was untrustworthy because of something he did 20 years after the fact. But feel free to carry on and believe everything authority tells you while acting like the people who watched the documentary are somehow less skeptical than you are.

I've heard or read elsewhere that seemingly everyone who lives in the area is convinced Avery killed her, and Dassey probably helped. But I'm really curious about that. Just living within 40 miles of the scene doesn't make a person any more knowledgeable or intelligent about the events, unless they happened to serve on the jury or were involved in the cases themselves in some capacity.

In fact, since reading that, I've wondered if part of the reason for the certainty in the Manitowoc area is the extensive pre-trial publicity, courtesy of the prosecutor and law enforcement, painting a seriously one sided view of the case and evidence, and that this certainty of Avery's guilt in the Manitowoc area is just another piece of evidence that Avery and Dassey, whether guilty or not, simply could not have received a fair trial there.

If anything you'd be more likely to hear the media's pro-prosecution slant if you lived anywhere near Manitowac at the time.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Yeah ok bud. In the first episode of that podcast they conveniently glossed over the fact that 4 different asst. DA's pointed to Gregory Allen as the actual suspect and the fact that it was shot down and ignored. They also said one of Steven's alibis was untrustworthy because of something he did 20 years after the fact. But feel free to carry on and believe everything authority tells you while acting like the people who watched the documentary are somehow less skeptical than you are.



If anything you'd be more likely to hear the media's pro-prosecution slant if you lived anywhere near Manitowac at the time.

I was going to listen and I still might but if you're shooting holes in what happen in the first episode relating to the initial case where he was wrongly convicted, you lose pretty much all credibility with me.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

They also went over the cat thing and the incident where he pointed the gun at his cousin etc. As if the documentary didn't cover it. Then again I highly doubt the people who listen to "rebutting" even watched the documentary. It's way more convenient to just listen to rebutting and then yell SHEEPLE at the top of your lungs.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

They also went over the cat thing and the incident where he pointed the gun at his cousin etc. As if the documentary didn't cover it. Then again I highly doubt the people who listen to "rebutting" even watched the documentary. It's way more convenient to just listen to rebutting and then yell SHEEPLE at the top of your lungs.

To be fair, the cat thing is more than likely something that the documentary underplayed compared to what probably happen.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I don't think so, they explained what happened in the documentary and it was clear to me anyway that he did it intentionally seeing as he did time for it. That's why I didn't get why people were so shocked by it when it was brought up in other articles. Did people actually think it was some honest mistake based on the documentary?

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

I don't think so, they explained what happened in the documentary and it was clear to me anyway that he did it intentionally seeing as he did time for it. That's why I didn't get why people were so shocked by it when it was brought up in other articles. Did people actually think it was some honest mistake based on the documentary?

Thats you but to be fair, its sort of glossed over and they make it sound like he screwed up, not that he covered the cat in gasoline set it on fire...

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

How exactly do you screw that up and do time for it? C'mon... it's pretty obvious what happened.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Thats you but to be fair, its sort of glossed over and they make it sound like he screwed up, not that he covered the cat in gasoline set it on fire...

Exactly.

There is no question the Netflix series glossed over or underplayed some of the more unsavory aspects of Avery. If I were making such a series, I wouldn't have done this for credibility sake. If you think there was insufficient evidence Avery is guilty of killing Halbach, present your case. There is a pretty strong case to be made for that viewpoint. But don't weaken your argument by trying to paint the guy as a normal guy. At the end of the day, whether Avery soaked the cat in gas and threw it over or into the fire, or whether he "made a mistake" by throwing a cat over a fire as he was goofing off and it mistakenly caught fire, the incident has zero to do with whether he killed Halbach.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Exactly.

There is no question the Netflix series glossed over or underplayed some of the more unsavory aspects of Avery. If I were making such a series, I wouldn't have done this for credibility sake. If you think there was insufficient evidence Avery is guilty of killing Halbach, present your case. There is a pretty strong case to be made for that viewpoint. But don't weaken your argument by trying to paint the guy as a normal guy. At the end of the day, whether Avery soaked the cat in gas and threw it over or into the fire, or whether he "made a mistake" by throwing a cat over a fire as he was goofing off and it mistakenly caught fire, the incident has zero to do with whether he killed Halbach.

The makers were on The Daily Show last week, they tried to get both sides of the story but no one from the other side was willing to participate, to the point that Kratz tried to have all of their footage taken from them (Judge Fox ruled in their favor). So it ended up one sided because only one side would participate. They also said it was not intended to be an advocacy film about Avery or about Avery at all, just that they chose this case because they thought it would be an interesting look at the workings of the justice system. Essentially they lucked into this.

On the rebutting podcast....yikes. I've made it through 3 and don't think I can go on. The key couldn't have been planted by Lenk because it didn't have Lenk's DNA on it is the type of reasoning it's using.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

The key couldn't have been planted by Lenk because it didn't have Lenk's DNA on it is the type of reasoning it's using.

HAHAHAHA. I commend you for suffering through 3 episodes...

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

The makers were on The Daily Show last week, they tried to get both sides of the story but no one from the other side was willing to participate, to the point that Kratz tried to have all of their footage taken from them (Judge Fox ruled in their favor). So it ended up one sided because only one side would participate. They also said it was not intended to be an advocacy film about Avery or about Avery at all, just that they chose this case because they thought it would be an interesting look at the workings of the justice system. Essentially they lucked into this.

On the rebutting podcast....yikes. I've made it through 3 and don't think I can go on. The key couldn't have been planted by Lenk because it didn't have Lenk's DNA on it is the type of reasoning it's using.

From what I've heard, according to the other side of this, the makers weren't all that interested in asking for the prosecution's side of things until they got very close to a final deal with netflix and by then many on that side felt the product was slanted towards the defense. There was one article I read about the woman that was the center of Avery's overturned rape conviction choosing not to participate because of the apparent slant of the documentarians.

 

[SanTropez]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

Being within 40 miles of where it happened you'd have to be as less competent than Dassey to believe that Making a Murderer is what really happened.

If you live within 40 miles of the crime scene you don't get to have an opinion, sorry.

#guiltyuntilproveninnocent

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Making a Murderer (spoilers expected) did Steven Avery do it?

If you live within 40 miles of the crime scene you don't get to have an opinion, sorry.

#guiltyuntilproveninnocent

You certainly do get to have an opinion, but the rest of us that didn't go through this the first time are allowed to be completely skeptical of what those people have to say because most are probably tainted by how the media covered all the things Kratz and other spoon fed them.