Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

[Drew S.]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

Yes... the majority of the juniors and seniors on this team were recruited under Timmy's watch. But that's not really giving Red the benefit of the doubt in terms of the team's abysmal start because there are only 8 guys with at least (wow, this is a sad way to put it) 2 points and 7 of them are juniors and seniors.

Save for McGovern's Ice Breaker performance (the jury is still out), name me the freshman or sophomore recruited by Red who is going to be a clear cut, consistent, actual difference maker for this team? Vesey is obviously the best bet, he's loaded with potential but he also has a bagel through 7 games. Even if he decides to start showing up on the score sheet, this season is fruitless and he's probably only here for one more year. Yes, I get that he's not Devin Shore, but he has a professional hockey pedigree and probably wants to try his hands at the minors sooner rather than later given Maine's fat chance to compete in the next two years. Beyond that, what's there? You could tell me how Perez is alright and that he's a big kid. Maybe he'll turn into something? Maybe. I liked the physicality Malcom Hayes brought last year, but his complete lack of production combined with his 2 or 3 penalties/game hasn't made him worth dressing consistently nor does it help the problem (3 GP out of 7). I don't see a lot of guys in the lower two classes who are going to be clear cut offensive leaders once they get some age, size and experience under their belt as juniors and seniors. When Devin was a freshman... when Gus, Flynn and Abbott were freshmen... and on and on back to as many examples as you'd like to give... you knew that they weren't all they could be yet, but that they'd get there and it would be great.

Next year's class MAY be good up front, but if that's the case, it still puts us a couple years away from a MAYBE. Red will have been here for 5 years by the time they're sophomores. I supported the Red hire, and I'm rooting for him to succeed, but given that the 2nd year was worse than the 1st year, this year is looking much worse than last year, and we're hanging our hat on what we MIGHT be 3 years from now... at what point do we slow down the patient benefit of the doubt?

One thing that makes it tough to evaluate recruits is we don't know exactly how much money they are getting. Maine hasn't lost a lot up front to graduation in the last couple years so I'm not sure how much money has come off the books. I'm pretty happy with Vesey and Lacroix. I think Lacroix was a walk-on/not much money type and he played great D and chipped in with a few goals as well. I've been impressed with Vesey but I think his issue this year is he needs to be on a line with some other good offensive players. I'm not sure he is a guy who is going to do it all himself. I've only seen the freshmen a couple times this year but to me they all looked like legitimate DI players. I'm not sure how many points they will put up but they definitely have the size and speed to compete at this level.

The bright spot for me has been the new dmen and McGovern. Michel and Becker are good and I think Muelenbauer could be right there with them. I only saw him in the blue/white game but thought he looked decent. I believe he has been hurt since then. Cochrane is a walk-on and I wouldn't expect much from him.

It took five or six years for Maine to go to hell under Timmy and I think it probably will take just as long to get back to being good. None of us have to like it but I think it is how it will probably go. It should be clear to most people that this hasn't been and isn't a situation where Maine has been bringing in tons of talent and it hasn't been used well.

 

[TripleE]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

One thing that makes it tough to evaluate recruits is we don't know exactly how much money they are getting. Maine hasn't lost a lot up front to graduation in the last couple years so I'm not sure how much money has come off the books. I'm pretty happy with Vesey and Lacroix. I think Lacroix was a walk-on/not much money type and he played great D and chipped in with a few goals as well. I've been impressed with Vesey but I think his issue this year is he needs to be on a line with some other good offensive players. I'm not sure he is a guy who is going to do it all himself. I've only seen the freshmen a couple times this year but to me they all looked like legitimate DI players. I'm not sure how many points they will put up but they definitely have the size and speed to compete at this level.

The bright spot for me has been the new dmen and McGovern. Michel and Becker are good and I think Muelenbauer could be right there with them. I only saw him in the blue/white game but thought he looked decent. I believe he has been hurt since then. Cochrane is a walk-on and I wouldn't expect much from him.

It took five or six years for Maine to go to hell under Timmy and I think it probably will take just as long to get back to being good. None of us have to like it but I think it is how it will probably go. It should be clear to most people that this hasn't been and isn't a situation where Maine has been bringing in tons of talent and it hasn't been used well.

I obviously HOPE you're right about some of these points, but I'm just looking at the players and the pipeline and comparing it to the competition. We play in Hockey East - we will never benefit from a fluffy schedule.

As far as saying it isn't a situation where Maine isn't using talent well, I sort of look to last year and dispute it. They were one of only two teams in the country to return 2 All-Americans. Other than Marty (who was obviously important, but a few dozen college hockey teams say goodbye to their starting goalie any given year and they don't all fall off a cliff like we do anytime we lose 1 key player these days) they didn't suffer devastating personnel losses compared to what your average college hockey team copes with annually. The top scorer they lost was Anthoine who I have nothing but love for, but let's not act like most teams can't handle the loss of a gritty, heart-guy senior who willed his way to 5th in scoring on the team especially seeing as you also returned #6. It sucked to lose Lomberg, but if you told your average team that #5 and #7 were your highest scoring personnel losses from the year before, they would probably salivate over what next year may look like. I don't know how different from 14-22-3 we are WITH Ryan.

As for McGovern being one of your bright spots... I obviously raved about his first two starts. That being said, he wasn't a wildly recruited guy and he's done an 0-2-0, 3.49gaa, .885% line in the 2 games since against (no disrespect to UMass' hot start) collectively weaker competition than the first two. The jury is still very much out on him as an "I hope, but we'll see....". I think the coaching staff likes Michel, but my goodness did he get burnt (speed) time and time again during that opening weekend.

I don't know, man. We talked about Red and company hopefully becoming a poor man's Walsh with finding some diamonds in the rough, some system guys, and someone who endorsed a tough and dirty game plan that was hard to play against and got the most out of the roster they had. Year #1 was exciting when thinking about the last part, but the lack of clear-cut talent showing up come year #3 (with year #4 having one or two guys you love on paper, but more maybes) and the annual regression from year 1 to 2 to 3 are starting to give me some red (no pun intended) flags.

This team has a VERY REALISTIC shot at being 0-7-3 when they show up in Orono for their first official home game on campus. I mean, there are no words for this... "rebuilding" or not.

 

[TripleE]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

One thing that makes it tough to evaluate recruits is we don't know exactly how much money they are getting. Maine hasn't lost a lot up front to graduation in the last couple years so I'm not sure how much money has come off the books. I'm pretty happy with Vesey and Lacroix. I think Lacroix was a walk-on/not much money type and he played great D and chipped in with a few goals as well. I've been impressed with Vesey but I think his issue this year is he needs to be on a line with some other good offensive players. I'm not sure he is a guy who is going to do it all himself. I've only seen the freshmen a couple times this year but to me they all looked like legitimate DI players. I'm not sure how many points they will put up but they definitely have the size and speed to compete at this level.

The bright spot for me has been the new dmen and McGovern. Michel and Becker are good and I think Muelenbauer could be right there with them. I only saw him in the blue/white game but thought he looked decent. I believe he has been hurt since then. Cochrane is a walk-on and I wouldn't expect much from him.

It took five or six years for Maine to go to hell under Timmy and I think it probably will take just as long to get back to being good. None of us have to like it but I think it is how it will probably go. It should be clear to most people that this hasn't been and isn't a situation where Maine has been bringing in tons of talent and it hasn't been used well.

By the way, saying that Vesey is a guy who "needs other good offensive players" wouldn't be great for giving he or Red a pass, either. First of all, whether you're Nolan Vesey or Wayne Gretzky, who WOULDN'T see more production if you improve linemates? And as abysmal as the scoring has been so far, are you trying to tell me there's not enough around him for the kid to get 1 measly point 20% of the way into the year? With that being said, he was one of Red's first recruits. On paper he's the most talented forward that has hit the ice in Orono under his leadership so far. He's drafted by Toronto and given the 2nd half of his rookie campaign most people expected him to be our runaway leading scorer. Now you're basically saying that Devin Shore made him look better than he actually was, and he needs another Devin Shore alongside him to repeat what he did or grow in production.

Hey... there are countless of examples of players who make their teammates better in any league so I don't begrudge someone for their scorecard benefitting from a top guy like that. But theoretically... shouldn't he be "that guy" in the making for us? The offense is rough across the board, but Vesey has been playing with team captain and fellow-goose-egg recipient Steven Swavely who had accounted for 48 points in the past two years, so let's not act like his line's cabinet is completely bare. Sure, we could all score a few goals if we played on a line with Mario Lemieux, but at what point does a Vesey or a Swavely have to put something on their own shoulders if they are who we think they are? (channeling my inner Dennis Green, there )

 

[ck1969]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

Shore got the call up to Dallas. He's been killing it in the AHL, 2nd leading scorer. So our 2 best players from last yr are in the big show this year. So anyone who still thinks they weren't dogging it, saving themselves from injury etc last year and looking ahead, well.........

 

[Runsub5]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

Shore got the call up to Dallas. He's been killing it in the AHL, 2nd leading scorer. So our 2 best players from last yr are in the big show this year. So anyone who still thinks they weren't dogging it, saving themselves from injury etc last year and looking ahead, well.........

To play "devils advocate", I would explain it differently. They weren't "dogging" it or trying to avoid injury. They wanted to win. They were forced to play a system that didn't favor their skill set. They were not allowed to show their strengths and were encumbered by the way they were forced to play.

 

[all bear]

To play "devils advocate", I would explain it differently. They weren't "dogging" it or trying to avoid injury. They wanted to win. They were forced to play a system that didn't favor their skill set. They were not allowed to show their strengths and were encumbered by the way they were forced to play.

Can you explain in more detail? I am not understanding where you are coming from here.

Personally I think Reds 5 years is what is needed to do a fair assessment of what the staff can or cannot do. So that will be my measure, he is beginning year 3

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

Can you explain in more detail? I am not understanding where you are coming from here.

Shore was playing hard and giving it his all, however the style of hockey Red wanted to play did not fit with Shore's game. When Shore got to the AHL his strengths fit well with the style of the play being played and so he excelled. Not because he was dogging at ME, rather because the systems didn't play to his particular strengths and/or he had no help.

Conner Brickely had a similar experience. Very physical kid who put up marginal numbers at UVM. His play strengths were tenacity and physicality which didn't fit well with HE refs who think any hard hit has to be a penalty. So he didn't do that well. Had a great season in the AHL and made the opening day roster with the Panthers. He could never be accused of dogging it, it was the style of play he was forced to play.

 

[blackbearbandie]

Shore was playing hard and giving it his all, however the style of hockey Red wanted to play did not fit with Shore's game. When Shore got to the AHL his strengths fit well with the style of the play being played and so he excelled. Not because he was dogging at ME, rather because the systems didn't play to his particular strengths and/or he had no help.

Conner Brickely had a similar experience. Very physical kid who put up marginal numbers at UVM. His play strengths were tenacity and physicality which didn't fit well with HE refs who think any hard hit has to be a penalty. So he didn't do that well. Had a great season in the AHL and made the opening day roster with the Panthers. He could never be accused of dogging it, it was the style of play he was forced to play.

Great example with Brickley.

Regardless, the results are coming much slower than anticipated.

 

[ck1969]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

To play "devils advocate", I would explain it differently. They weren't "dogging" it or trying to avoid injury. They wanted to win. They were forced to play a system that didn't favor their skill set. They were not allowed to show their strengths and were encumbered by the way they were forced to play.

Well if that's the case, which it very well could be, then that's pizz poor coaching. I would think you would modify your system to the strengths of your team ie; Hutton and Shore. It's not like the team was loaded with talent beyond those two, so why wouldn't you maximize your best assets???? Just sayin.

 

[Runsub5]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

......... I would think you would modify your system to the strengths of your team ie; Hutton and Shore. It's not like the team was loaded with talent beyond those two, so why wouldn't you maximize your best assets???? Just sayin.

Exactly. A good coach would recognize the strengths and weaknesses and have a strategy that would get the most out of the team. Sometimes, it may not be the style of play that fans like. As jcarter7669 points out regarding Brickley, a similar situation was JVR at UNH. I don't know anything about his game, but he was a far better player when he reached the NHL than he was playing for UNH. Could have been the system, I don't know.

 

[Drew S.]

Exactly. A good coach would recognize the strengths and weaknesses and have a strategy that would get the most out of the team. Sometimes, it may not be the style of play that fans like. As jcarter7669 points out regarding Brickley, a similar situation was JVR at UNH. I don't know anything about his game, but he was a far better player when he reached the NHL than he was playing for UNH. Could have been the system, I don't know.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I thought he looked a little slow the first half of last year. He smashed his knee against the penalty box door in the exhibition game and I never heard whether it caused him a problem or not. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the main cause of his production being down though.

 

[blackbearbandie]

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I thought he looked a little slow the first half of last year. He smashed his knee against the penalty box door in the exhibition game and I never heard whether it caused him a problem or not. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the main cause of his production being down though.

Yeah, I remember hearing that too. Shore will be on NESN Tuesday, providing he cracks the lineup when the Bruins play the Stars at 7pm.

 

[walrus]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I thought he looked a little slow the first half of last year. He smashed his knee against the penalty box door in the exhibition game and I never heard whether it caused him a problem or not. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the main cause of his production being down though.

He did, it looked like it hurt

2 players don't make a hockey team, are you going to make your game plan fit 2 players out of 20? I don't think that works either. The talent level is weak at best. The talent Maine does have isn't producing at all. Look at Vesey, Swavely, Byron, Brown, trying too hard, not good enough, not the right game plan, not the right linemates, whatever they ain't producing

 

[ck1969]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

He did, it looked like it hurt

2 players don't make a hockey team, are you going to make your game plan fit 2 players out of 20? I don't think that works either. The talent level is weak at best. The talent Maine does have isn't producing at all. Look at Vesey, Swavely, Byron, Brown, trying too hard, not good enough, not the right game plan, not the right linemates, whatever they ain't producing

You do when the 2 are head and shoulders above everyone else. But you're right it ain't working...last year, this year.....

 

[all bear]

Well if that's the case, which it very well could be, then that's pizz poor coaching. I would think you would modify your system to the strengths of your team ie; Hutton and Shore. It's not like the team was loaded with talent beyond those two, so why wouldn't you maximize your best assets???? Just sayin.

I'm trying to figure out just exactly what was their style of play that did not fit Reds systems. We're they not allowed to free lance, were they given to much defensive responsibility? Wondering why he thinks they were a round peg in a square hole.
If he's just playing devils advocate that's one thing, if not what's his thinking....runsub?

 

[Ma#1ne Hky]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

Can you explain in more detail? I am not understanding where you are coming from here.

Personally I think Reds 5 years is what is needed to do a fair assessment of what the staff can or cannot do. So that will be my measure, he is beginning year 3

Gendron has a 4 year deal in place...are you saying Maine will extend him before year 4 is done.? Even if he has a bad season this season and next.?

 

[walrus]

You do when the 2 are head and shoulders above everyone else. But you're right it ain't working...last year, this year.....

Yeah but you have to have the talent to do that. It isn't there

 

[rufus]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

I'm curious as to what "style" he thinks they should have been playing, and what style Red is forcing them to play? He claims that they should be playing a different style than what Red has them doing, but doesn't elaborate on just what those "styles" are.

I see Red trying to implement an uptempo, aggressive forechecking style, is he saying this didn't fit with Shore and Hutton's skillsets?

As opposed to TIMMAY's "if you don't have puck possession, retreat to center ice and wait, and then back up, back up, back up".

 

[all bear]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

I'm curious as to what "style" he thinks they should have been playing, and what style Red is forcing them to play? He claims that they should be playing a different style than what Red has them doing, but doesn't elaborate on just what those "styles" are.

I see Red trying to implement an uptempo, aggressive forechecking style, is he saying this didn't fit with Shore and Hutton's skillsets?

As opposed to TIMMAY's "if you don't have puck possession, retreat to center ice and wait, and then back up, back up, back up".

Apparently its just a veiled "devils advocate" couched shot at Gendron...I can't imagine what kind of style of play would not fit Shore and Hutton's style... wait, maybe the backup and retreat style would not fit their style of aggressive play..ya think?

 

[all bear]

Re: Maine Hockey: Summer 2015 on the Stillwater

Gendron has a 4 year deal in place...are you saying Maine will extend him before year 4 is done.? Even if he has a bad season this season and next.?

Alzheimers not withstanding, didn't the redster state it would be 5 years before they were knocking down the door? If so, maybe the chief is laying the groundwork for his extension.

And yes I think he would get extended. The U needs 10 years to make any kind of critical decision such as that probably where someone's feelings could get hurt..(fcs)