Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

[Runsub5]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

I think we all know Tim is not coming back to UMaine. While he may have been unhappy at the time of his dismissal, I'm sure that he is happy to be out of Orono. For the record, he is both coach and fund raiser at Kimball Union and has built a very good program in 3 years (2 consecutive Elite 8 Championships). While he struggled to recruit enough top players for Maine he is able to do it in NH. He is recruiting players from around the world and some of them are going on to play D1 hockey. While this is prep school and not D1, it demonstrates his ability to build a program and be successful. I would not be surprised to see him return to coaching college hockey at some point in the future and prove that he can build a winning program when not following a legend.

 

[cavbim]

I think we all know Tim is not coming back to UMaine. While he may have been unhappy at the time of his dismissal, I'm sure that he is happy to be out of Orono. For the record, he is both coach and fund raiser at Kimball Union and has built a very good program in 3 years (2 consecutive Elite 8 Championships). While he struggled to recruit enough top players for Maine he is able to do it in NH. He is recruiting players from around the world and some of them are going on to play D1 hockey. While this is prep school and not D1, it demonstrates his ability to build a program and be successful. I would not be surprised to see him return to coaching college hockey at some point in the future and prove that he can build a winning program when not following a legend.

I suspect when you factor in that Whitehead turns 58 I’m not sure he gets that chance. Not saying that if he found a Norwich like Mike McShane did he wouldn’t jump at it (however McShane still wasn’t 50 when he took the job). Certainly a middling record at Maine and Lowell isn’t going to inspire an AD in Division 1 to hire him to drive a successful program (which I think would be a Whitehead criteria for go back to college) especially knowing you need to change again in 5 years or so and a rebuilding program would seem more willing to go young to bring life back from the top. (Why hiring Gendron was a puzzle back when he was hired). I suspect depending on additional prep responsibilities I doubt the salary difference between most D3 jobs and top winning prep jobs isn’t significant. It would seem it would need to be a Middlebury type D3 job to be the right fit. Note Norwich grabbed Ellsworth from UML who was one of the hot young coaches instead of looking to a Whitehead.

 

[cavbim]

All this talk about a coaching change, getting a big gun etc is dreaming right now. Im resigned to two more years after this one of RG. The school is just going to let him retire it out. If you hear what RG says this year he has already started to scale back. Probably a good chance the next coach is a young coach, or one of the current coaches. Might work or not, in which case maybe we have to have more turnover than what the fans are used to. The program is absolutely ripe for the right leadership, and yes it could bounce back to fill the alfond regularly, folks around here still like hockey.

Its all too bad how we got here, really, but looking forward to seeing what happens and better hockey to come.

Happy new year all. Keep it between the ditches.

As an outsider have a few questions about what your expectations for a coach are and what the schools athletic financial realities.

1. What was Walsh’s salary (at least roughly) for the last contract he had and understanding a lot of schools don’t need to disclose how did it compare to the other salaries for coaches in Hockey East. (Realize we are talking say 98-01). Just to compare school committment.

2. How much was hiring Walsh in your mind catching lightening in a bottle. To me in 1984 Hockey coaches (who get more time even now to prove they’ve failed) had more security, that changes were more old boy network then hire the aggressive young guy/going out to get another schools coach (unless alumnus) (so Walsh had that lane to himself at that time) and Hockey East, in its infancy itself was ripe for that young guy march through it practically unchallenged (UML was just going D1 in Hockey, NU had one of the good old boys coaching, Ceglarski was a winner but wasn’t going to drive BC to next level as he wasn’t going to match Walsh and Parker’s more aggressive ways, and PC going through 3rd coach in 4 years and UNH about to go through 4 coaches in just a bit longer were lacking stability which meant only BU was positioned to challenge Maine. Never mind changes to number of schools now competing, the other sports taking potential players away from the pool of talent making recruiting tougher and the turnover from early departures or even how quick a player will move on now if not getting playing time

3. Am I right give or take a few K Gendron makes 210K. My impression Borek got a better salary so does anyone disagree Maine is lowest salary in the league. You just lost football coach so how does the salary in football and basketball Maine pays their coach compare to other coaches in that league. ((Side question. Does anyone not believe some of the associate head coaches are paid better than Gendron most notably Keefe who would be the hot young guy, but also guys like Pesrl and Rohlston and I suspect 3 or 4 more?)

So the final question. What is the monetary range you’d expect Maine to offer a replacement for a Gendron and what has to be on the candidates’s resume to in your mind believe he can earn it (be successful)

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

I think we all know Tim is not coming back to UMaine. While he may have been unhappy at the time of his dismissal, I'm sure that he is happy to be out of Orono. For the record, he is both coach and fund raiser at Kimball Union and has built a very good program in 3 years (2 consecutive Elite 8 Championships). While he struggled to recruit enough top players for Maine he is able to do it in NH. He is recruiting players from around the world and some of them are going on to play D1 hockey. While this is prep school and not D1, it demonstrates his ability to build a program and be successful. I would not be surprised to see him return to coaching college hockey at some point in the future and prove that he can build a winning program when not following a legend.

I certainly wanted Tim's head on a stick late in his tenure, but Maine went from the frying pan into the fire when he was replaced by Red... I was crossing my fingers back then, but things have gone from bad to worse.

Guys on here (well, just Blackie, the expert talent-evaluator) have touted the recruiting, but the proof is in the pudding. It's a very simple calculus. Nothing there to speak of.

Even if Scotty Bowman took over this team, it would takes years to re-build it. Red is the worst coach/recruiter Maine has ever had. His program has been a dumpster fire, no if's or but's.

 

[amkirby10]

I certainly wanted Tim's head on a stick late in his tenure, but Maine went from the frying pan into the fire when he was replaced by Red... I was crossing my fingers back then, but things have gone from bad to worse.

Guys on here (well, just Blackie, the expert talent-evaluator) have touted the recruiting, but the proof is in the pudding. It's a very simple calculus. Nothing there to speak of.

Even if Scotty Bowman took over this team, it would takes years to re-build it. Red is the worst coach/recruiter Maine has ever had. His program has been a dumpster fire, no if's or but's.

I suppose I should stand behind my prior statements and say I also think some of the team has talent, in particular Pearson, Fossier, Tralmaks, JSS, and Dawe up front, Keeper and maybe Binner on the back end, and Swayman in net. The problem is, all those guys have regressed since last year if they are returning or not met expectations for the freshman. I dont think any player has improved their game from last year, everybody looks worse. And also as a quick side note, I really hate how Red has been letting Dawe waste away on the 4th line with Perez all season long, the kid can play and deserves significantly more ice time than hes been getting, at least in my opinion.

 

[Ma#1ne Hky]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

I suppose I should stand behind my prior statements and say I also think some of the team has talent, in particular Pearson, Fossier, Tralmaks, JSS, and Dawe up front, Keeper and maybe Binner on the back end, and Swayman in net. The problem is, all those guys have regressed since last year if they are returning or not met expectations for the freshman. I dont think any player has improved their game from last year, everybody looks worse. And also as a quick side note, I really hate how Red has been letting Dawe waste away on the 4th line with Perez all season long, the kid can play and deserves significantly more ice time than hes been getting, at least in my opinion.

Dawe plays hard each and every shift...plays with heart/grit and more players should take his cue...as for Perez he is a waste of time on the ice, brings nothing to the game no upside for the team, he looks for the hit and not the hockey play...the amount of ice time he gets is to no benefit to the team...and that is because of who is behind the bench.

 

[NorthMike]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

As an outsider have a few questions about what your expectations for a coach are and what the schools athletic financial realities.
Am I right give or take a few K Gendron makes 210K. My impression Borek got a better salary so does anyone disagree Maine is lowest salary in the league. You just lost football coach so how does the salary in football and basketball Maine pays their coach compare to other coaches in that league. ((Side question. Does anyone not believe some of the associate head coaches are paid better than Gendron most notably Keefe who would be the hot young guy, but also guys like Pesrl and Rohlston and I suspect 3 or 4 more?)

So the final question. What is the monetary range you’d expect Maine to offer a replacement for a Gendron and what has to be on the candidates’s resume to in your mind believe he can earn it (be successful)

This question about what umaine is willing or can afford to pay a coach is often discussed, yes there are realistic limits. We are a small state, (1.3million) with a population who has average (nationwide) (I'm estimating) disposable income to spend on university athletics. A large part of the schools funding comes from the State with a variety of other sources mixed in there. (there is a BDN article from 2012 that has a good write up about how umaine athletics are funded). When the time comes to replace RG that’s going to be the N01 challenge for Ken Ralph – how much and who. I cant speculate on any of that other than to say that the school needs to decide how important a successful hockey program is and then go from there. Realistically I don’t think the school will pay the rate to hire a known successful coach or highly sought after coach. They should look at a higher coach salary level to get off the bottom of the pay scale and stay with what Div 1 hockey is costing these days.

Given what we have seen from the head coach since the Shawn era my inclination for a coach would be to go in a different direction – younger, energetic, one capable of motivating the players, and one with some recruiting success, certainly D1 experience. Big order. Realistically we may see one of the current coaches Ben or Alfie given the reigns. This has been done and worked with other sports at Umaine.

 

[AMC]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

As an outsider have a few questions about what your expectations for a coach are and what the schools athletic financial realities.

1. What was Walsh’s salary (at least roughly) for the last contract he had and understanding a lot of schools don’t need to disclose how did it compare to the other salaries for coaches in Hockey East. (Realize we are talking say 98-01). Just to compare school committment.

2. How much was hiring Walsh in your mind catching lightening in a bottle. To me in 1984 Hockey coaches (who get more time even now to prove they’ve failed) had more security, that changes were more old boy network then hire the aggressive young guy/going out to get another schools coach (unless alumnus) (so Walsh had that lane to himself at that time) and Hockey East, in its infancy itself was ripe for that young guy march through it practically unchallenged (UML was just going D1 in Hockey, NU had one of the good old boys coaching, Ceglarski was a winner but wasn’t going to drive BC to next level as he wasn’t going to match Walsh and Parker’s more aggressive ways, and PC going through 3rd coach in 4 years and UNH about to go through 4 coaches in just a bit longer were lacking stability which meant only BU was positioned to challenge Maine. Never mind changes to number of schools now competing, the other sports taking potential players away from the pool of talent making recruiting tougher and the turnover from early departures or even how quick a player will move on now if not getting playing time

3. Am I right give or take a few K Gendron makes 210K. My impression Borek got a better salary so does anyone disagree Maine is lowest salary in the league. You just lost football coach so how does the salary in football and basketball Maine pays their coach compare to other coaches in that league. ((Side question. Does anyone not believe some of the associate head coaches are paid better than Gendron most notably Keefe who would be the hot young guy, but also guys like Pesrl and Rohlston and I suspect 3 or 4 more?)

So the final question. What is the monetary range you’d expect Maine to offer a replacement for a Gendron and what has to be on the candidates’s resume to in your mind believe he can earn it (be successful)

You're asking the right questions. Maine can afford to go one of two ways with its coaches:

1. Young up and comers who are willing to take less salary in order to get a head coaching job. This can work really well in the short term: the Harasymiak model. The downside is, when it works, the coaches leave and move up. When it doesn't work, you get basketball coach Walsh who had some really bad years.

2. "Career" guys who have no ambition to move up. This is the Cosgrove model (maybe even the Whitehead or Gendron model). A veteran coach with a low ceiling, who isn't going to try to climb up the occupational ladder. Cosgrove worked perfectly if this is the coach you want- 15 or so seasons, a few playoff appearances, one or two really good teams. But a lot of middling teams. Whitehead was similar, but less beloved because expectations were higher (and his end was messier). Gendron hasn't proven able to get to the heights Whitehead or Cosgrove reached.

I personally prefer door number one- bring in young guys who will go all out to win quickly and move up. At least you have a chance at something special in the short term, instead of long term malaise. You may get some duds, but you can move on from them quickly.

 

[BlackBearFan19]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

You're asking the right questions. Maine can afford to go one of two ways with its coaches:

1. Young up and comers who are willing to take less salary in order to get a head coaching job. This can work really well in the short term: the Harasymiak model. The downside is, when it works, the coaches leave and move up. When it doesn't work, you get basketball coach Walsh who had some really bad years.

2. "Career" guys who have no ambition to move up. This is the Cosgrove model (maybe even the Whitehead or Gendron model). A veteran coach with a low ceiling, who isn't going to try to climb up the occupational ladder. Cosgrove worked perfectly if this is the coach you want- 15 or so seasons, a few playoff appearances, one or two really good teams. But a lot of middling teams. Whitehead was similar, but less beloved because expectations were higher (and his end was messier). Gendron hasn't proven able to get to the heights Whitehead or Cosgrove reached.

I personally prefer door number one- bring in young guys who will go all out to win quickly and move up. At least you have a chance at something special in the short term, instead of long term malaise. You may get some duds, but you can move on from them quickly.

Although I'm on board with the starting fresh, new face idea, what about Kevin Swallow? He's currently the coach at UNE, has them in the top 20, and has proven he can win and recruit in Maine. UNE to UMaine is obviously a huge jump but he would be cheap and he's proving he can take teams to the NCAA's.

 

[BoSox3066]

Certainly a middling record at Maine and Lowell isn’t going to inspire an AD in Division 1 to hire him.

So 250-171-60 is a 605 winning percentage and by no definition a “middling” record just as a point of information.

8 or 9 of the 12 teams in this league would murder for that over 12 years.

 

[cavbim]

So 250-171-60 is a 605 winning percentage and by no definition a “middling” record just as a point of information.

8 or 9 of the 12 teams in this league would murder for that over 12 years.

Don’t really want to quibble. In Hockey East history there have been 39 coaches and granted some certainly should be ranked incomplete. I guess everyone would have their own criteria to rank coaches. Eliminate 3 newbies, 12 top, 12 middle and 12 bottom. If you just weigh records without backstory I’ll give you a rank of 10 11 or 12 all time forbWhirhead, a little backstory about school support, what he inherited, how he left program I’d say he was 14th best in league history.

Those numbers were his Maine numbers. His UML was 76-95-11, He had only 5 years there which says something to me and never got home ice. Eliminate his 1st 3 Maine teams he’s 167-141-49. I get it you have to consider those years but if tragedy hadn’t struck those wouldn’t have been his teams to coach. It wasn’t like he was a new face breathing life into the team—it’s a lucky guy given a Porsche to drive. Berry won national championship his first year and No Dak is one of the premier teams as it becomes more his team success is harder to come by. I would wonder if NoDak fans are believing him more middling now. Bennett too at Union certainly had his championship questioned especially in light of Leaman snagging it the following year. All things considered Bennett has been above average in his 8 years there but He has work to do to cement his legacy there is a bit of up and downs

As far most killing for that record maybe but would Whitehead be the guy to do it at their school. Obviously Maine says no they fired him he was trending down, Clearly BC and BU have done it with their guys. UNH got that record for 27 years from Umilie. UML clearly saw enough of Whitehead and would laugh at a trade for what Bazin has done. If 8-9 years from now Carvel has UMass winning consistently even if his record isn’t ..605 I’d prefer what he did as more impressive. Madigan’s record over 8 years is trending up and if it continues on that level he probably produces close to a 605 at a school with no such track record as compared to Maine where ithat record was a step down. Leaman has better then a .605 winning record at PC and that includes, like Carvel appears to be doing, inheriting a 3 year cellar dweller to drag down his record. So 3 teams might murder for what Whitehead has done and quite frankly Whitehead given same circumstances would be hard pressed to match what Dennehy did in his Merrimack term—see his UML record as proof

I don’t have a guy to make this work perfectly but say Walsh was unable to continue coaching just as the ‘01 season ends and steps down. Say he’s still able to give input for a replacement if you’d like. Whitehead is available obviously. It’s April. Maine does not go with an interim coach instead they do a national search. Based on info you have in April 2001 do you hire Tim Whitehead in that scenario?

 

[cavbim]

You're asking the right questions. Maine can afford to go one of two ways with its coaches:

1. Young up and comers who are willing to take less salary in order to get a head coaching job. This can work really well in the short term: the Harasymiak model. The downside is, when it works, the coaches leave and move up. When it doesn't work, you get basketball coach Walsh who had some really bad years.

Was Walsh still the assistant at Providence the year you spent there or had he gone up the street by then. That was a big jump from D3 RIC to Maine. I know b-ball wise Maine isn’t on the top of the coaches food chain but there still a lot of food chain between Maine and RIC. Did James hire him? If he did sounds like an old boy hire. James was athletic department fundraiser when Walsh was assistant

Anyone blame you on your transfer back from bringing the bad juju at Providence at that time with you?

Anyway if I was your AD this is what I’d do

Basic assumptions: your AD is fairly new and not necessarily a hockey guy, at least to point he can comfortable make a quick choice. That if it’s not underway already he’s beefing up hockey fundraising since you need funds to get right guy. That based on another answer there is a realization the salary must be better. I’ll peg it I want to commit 300-350K.

Immediate steps. Have a two tier plan to determine Red’s end date. It begins with getting him on board with ending this. First I consider after this season if fundraising allows me 400K over 2 years and the raise for the new coach, Red is willing to earn part of his salary as a coach as an administrator (with a chance to keep job at true position pay beyond 2 years till ready to retire). I feel I need to act immediately if UVM sacks Sneedon and potentially they scoop the guy I want. To get up to speed myself and make an informed choice I might give Redvanother year especially if finances dictate but he can’t be a lame duck. That being the case I begin my list. I put a couple of true stretch guys I gets feelers out to see if possible. Time is soon running out before Rick Bennet gets to the age i as an AD he might prefer if moving to a more turn key program even if that is limited as neither he nor the BU fan base seemed enamored by that possibility (another words he might only have the opening to replace Leaman again and that might be time dated. However his salary seems to open the discussion for each opening. My second stretch guy is Keefe. I suspect he too would stretch my budget beyond breaking point but his track record of recruiting and work on helping NU reach new heights. His new contract might be an obstacle as well as a desire to wait it out for Madigan to finish his new contract, see if he can get the BC job as an NU fan suggested or even be there to swoop in if his alma mater’s job opens up as Providence is turn key too. Simultaeously I reach out to Maine hockey alumnus for input, names, possibly entry to names that might be thought to be beyond means. The poster who suggested Swallow is absolutely right. His name is on short list immediately. Young successful and 6 years experience puts him in my pay range. I had seen that when I went to look up the Salve Regina coach in that leaguebwhoblooks to be an up and comer, maybe just too inexperienced at this point. However as with any D3 guy I want to carefully review how solid that record is. Many D3 leagues have too many cupcakes to inflate record. I want some guys on my short list with D1 assistant experience who’ll interview whose answer minimally tell me if a younger D3 coach has answers that suggest he’s ready for a large jumped. You mention Bob Walsh I believe he hit 20 wins at RIC like 8 straight years but failed at Maine, might suggest he wasn’t ready at the time he was hired. I want to ferret that out. My hockey East short list preferably includes UMass a Ben Barr, Norwich HC, recent top UML guy Cam Ellsworth and PC Kris Mayotte. I’d hope the lure of top job, proving something and go get em attitude outweights salary deficiency. I’d look for 3-4 more guys from D3, USHL (Anthony Noreen at Tri City and Luke Strand at Sioux City intrigue me—however USHL guys tend to be western oriented but a Maine AD should know how successful a certain USHL coach was in NCAA and want to cover his bases, finally I’d look carefully to Eastern Canada for Candidates. Maine might be uniquely located to attract them with the added advantage of building a ready made niche forbrecruiting. There might be added issues of language and new immigration laws (believe a Clarkson assistant had to leave due to that)

As AMC noted my preference too would be the young up and comer just need to do due diligence if I was hiring. The above trends that way

 

[BoSox3066]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

“Middling” is false. Thats all there is to it.

You postulate what I wouldve done in 2001, which was not the original premise. A D1 AD would absolutely look at a guy with 326 career wins, 80 cames over 500 at Maine, and find him qualified for his opening if TW so chose. Your original point that an AD would not and that Tw is “middling” is perposterous.

 

[walrus]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

Sue Tyler blew it by not having a national search. Said it back then and I'll say it now

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[walrus]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

Dont clear the zone, lazy play CC up 1 in front of 12 fans or so

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[walrus]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

Pearson ties it on nice play

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[walrus]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

2 1 CC now

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[Fishman'81]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

Binner just awful for most of the period. Maine had chances but this team can't finish.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Maine 2018, 2019 Footba, I mean hockey thread.

“Middling” is false. Thats all there is to it.

You postulate what I wouldve done in 2001, which was not the original premise. A D1 AD would absolutely look at a guy with 326 career wins, 80 cames over 500 at Maine, and find him qualified for his opening if TW so chose. Your original point that an AD would not and that Tw is “middling” is perposterous.

I still think what sunk TW was the ghastly recruiting class of Sill, Czuba and Dekastrossa (sp?). It was shockingly bad by that era's Maine standards.

 

[BoSox3066]

I still think what sunk TW was the ghastly recruiting class of Sill, Czuba and Dekastrossa (sp?). It was shockingly bad by that era's Maine standards.

What sunk him was Scott Darling and missing the NCAAs with 3 years of Gus Nyquist. Thats just absurd to get that kid to stay that long and not make the tournament.

They couldve done better in 2001. By 2013 it was time for TW to go. He also was a much better than average coach who enjoyed success and should be in the Maine Hall of Fame someday. All of these things can be true at the same time.

And the fact that we’re STILL talking about him 6 years later just shows how phuckin bad the team is now