Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

[d3hockey57]

U18 team is not a good gauge because the roster for the Wisconsin game was likely completely different from the one that played Adrian. They tailor the roster to the level of team they are playing...

It was the same roster with the same starting forward group. Do better when throwing out claims you have no idea what you are talking about.


Game against University of Wisconsin:
LW 10 Matthew Beniers 0-0-0 2 C 7 Chase Yoder 0-0-0 1 RW 6 Brett Berard 0-0-0 3
LW 17 Luke Tuch 0-0-0 3 C 19 Landon Slaggert 0-1-1 0 RW 9 Thomas Bordeleau 2-0-2 4
LW 11 Hunter Strand 0-0-0 0 C 28 Ty Smilanic 0-1-1 0 RW 15 Dylan Peterson 0-0-0 1
LW 12 Hunter McKown 0-0-0 0 C 21 Zakary Karpa 0-0-0 0 RW 22 Tanner Latsch 0-0-0 1
LD 8 Jake Sanderson 0-0-0 1 RD 2 Eamon Powell 0-0-0 1 G 29 Drew Commesso DNP
LD 25 Tyler Kleven 0-0-0 0 RD 14 Brock Faber 0-0-0 1 G 30 Noah Grannan 0-0-0 0
LD 20 Jacob Truscott 0-2-2 0 RD 3 Owen Gallatin 0-0-0 4
XD 4 Daniel Laatsch 0-0-0 0 XD 16 Connor Kelley 0-0-0 1
XF 13 Daniyal Dzhaniyev 0-0-0 1



Game against Adrian College:
LW 10 Matthew Beniers 1-0-1 2 C 7 Chase Yoder 0-0-0 2 RW 6 Brett Berard 0-0-0 2
LW 17 Luke Tuch 0-0-0 1 C 9 Thomas Bordeleau 0-0-0 5 RW 19 Landon Slaggert 0-0-0 3
LW 11 Hunter Strand 0-0-0 3 C 28 Ty Smilanic 0-0-0 2 RW 15 Dylan Peterson 0-0-0 0
LW 12 Hunter McKown 0-0-0 0 C 21 Zakary Karpa 0-0-0 0 RW 22 Tanner Latsch 0-0-0 1
LD 8 Jake Sanderson 0-0-0 0 RD 2 Eamon Powell 0-0-0 2 G 1 Cullen DeYoung DNP
LD 20 Jacob Truscott 0-0-0 2 RD 14 Brock Faber 0-1-1 2 G 30 Noah Grannan 0-0-0 0
LD 3 Owen Gallatin 0-0-0 3 RD 16 Connor Kelley 0-0-0 0
XD 25 Tyler Kleven 0-0-0 2 XD 4 Daniel Laatsch 0-0-0 4
XF 13 Daniyal Dzhaniyev 0-0-0

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

It was the same roster with the same starting forward group. Do better when throwing out claims you have no idea what you are talking about.


Game against University of Wisconsin:
LW 10 Matthew Beniers 0-0-0 2 C 7 Chase Yoder 0-0-0 1 RW 6 Brett Berard 0-0-0 3
LW 17 Luke Tuch 0-0-0 3 C 19 Landon Slaggert 0-1-1 0 RW 9 Thomas Bordeleau 2-0-2 4
LW 11 Hunter Strand 0-0-0 0 C 28 Ty Smilanic 0-1-1 0 RW 15 Dylan Peterson 0-0-0 1
LW 12 Hunter McKown 0-0-0 0 C 21 Zakary Karpa 0-0-0 0 RW 22 Tanner Latsch 0-0-0 1
LD 8 Jake Sanderson 0-0-0 1 RD 2 Eamon Powell 0-0-0 1 G 29 Drew Commesso DNP
LD 25 Tyler Kleven 0-0-0 0 RD 14 Brock Faber 0-0-0 1 G 30 Noah Grannan 0-0-0 0
LD 20 Jacob Truscott 0-2-2 0 RD 3 Owen Gallatin 0-0-0 4
XD 4 Daniel Laatsch 0-0-0 0 XD 16 Connor Kelley 0-0-0 1
XF 13 Daniyal Dzhaniyev 0-0-0 1



Game against Adrian College:
LW 10 Matthew Beniers 1-0-1 2 C 7 Chase Yoder 0-0-0 2 RW 6 Brett Berard 0-0-0 2
LW 17 Luke Tuch 0-0-0 1 C 9 Thomas Bordeleau 0-0-0 5 RW 19 Landon Slaggert 0-0-0 3
LW 11 Hunter Strand 0-0-0 3 C 28 Ty Smilanic 0-0-0 2 RW 15 Dylan Peterson 0-0-0 0
LW 12 Hunter McKown 0-0-0 0 C 21 Zakary Karpa 0-0-0 0 RW 22 Tanner Latsch 0-0-0 1
LD 8 Jake Sanderson 0-0-0 0 RD 2 Eamon Powell 0-0-0 2 G 1 Cullen DeYoung DNP
LD 20 Jacob Truscott 0-0-0 2 RD 14 Brock Faber 0-1-1 2 G 30 Noah Grannan 0-0-0 0
LD 3 Owen Gallatin 0-0-0 3 RD 16 Connor Kelley 0-0-0 0
XD 25 Tyler Kleven 0-0-0 2 XD 4 Daniel Laatsch 0-0-0 4
XF 13 Daniyal Dzhaniyev 0-0-0

Busted......stone cold...

 

[shooter27]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

Back when I was playing (I hate using that phrase) in the early 00’s, about half of the guys on my DIII (NESCAC) team had at least some interest from DI programs prior to going to college and most ended up playing DIII because they didn’t want to play multiple years of juniors. It definitely wasn’t uncommon back then for the top of DIII to be able to compete with the low end of DI, especially the MAAC/Atlantic Hockey teams which were less than a decade from being DIII themselves.

However, I’d agree with others that have said the gap has widened over the intervening years. First off, the bottom of DI has gotten better simply by being in that competitive arena. Second, look at all the guys who show up as 20/21 year old Freshman in DI after multiple years of playing juniors. Back 15-20 years ago, those guys played DIII. Being a 20/21 year old Freshman simply wasn’t as common back then.

From personal experience, I had a couple solid DI offers (small partial scholarship, not full, mid to lower tier ECAC teams) that were contingent upon me playing juniors after three years at prep school. At the time, my dad was against it and he was paying the bills so that was that, though if I had fought for it hard I might’ve been able to convince him. In today’s environment I’d have gone to the USHL and played DI. Also, at the time the USHL and NAHL were on pretty equal footing, the USHL was beginning to pull away but the gap wasn’t nearly what it is today. Was I “good enough” to play DI? Yes. Would I have been a difference-maker? Probably not, though who knows what extra development time and coaching could have done. But looking at my life today, I’m probably better off that I went where I did.

To sum up, that is why the gap between DIII and DI has widened, primarily because many of the older DI players you see today would’ve played DIII back in the day.

 

[JSicedog]

Back when I was playing (I hate using that phrase) in the early 00’s, about half of the guys on my DIII (NESCAC) team had at least some interest from DI programs prior to going to college and most ended up playing DIII because they didn’t want to play multiple years of juniors. It definitely wasn’t uncommon back then for the top of DIII to be able to compete with the low end of DI, especially the MAAC/Atlantic Hockey teams which were less than a decade from being DIII themselves.

However, I’d agree with others that have said the gap has widened over the intervening years. First off, the bottom of DI has gotten better simply by being in that competitive arena. Second, look at all the guys who show up as 20/21 year old Freshman in DI after multiple years of playing juniors. Back 15-20 years ago, those guys played DIII. Being a 20/21 year old Freshman simply wasn’t as common back then.

From personal experience, I had a couple solid DI offers (small partial scholarship, not full, mid to lower tier ECAC teams) that were contingent upon me playing juniors after three years at prep school. At the time, my dad was against it and he was paying the bills so that was that, though if I had fought for it hard I might’ve been able to convince him. In today’s environment I’d have gone to the USHL and played DI. Also, at the time the USHL and NAHL were on pretty equal footing, the USHL was beginning to pull away but the gap wasn’t nearly what it is today. Was I “good enough” to play DI? Yes. Would I have been a difference-maker? Probably not, though who knows what extra development time and coaching could have done. But looking at my life today, I’m probably better off that I went where I did.

To sum up, that is why the gap between DIII and DI has widened, primarily because many of the older DI players you see today would’ve played DIII back in the day.

You just explained why the gap has shrunk. Nowadays, unless your an NHL prospect, everybody plays juniors until they are 19-20, whether its D1 or D3. There are probably 75-100 players at both the D1 and D3 level who are interchangeable. It boils down to who gets hot in their last year of Juniors vs those who had mediocre years. The gap between the top 10 d3 teams and bottom 10 d1 teams is minimal

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

I know you are all experts in DIII hockey but spwood is (was) correct. For many years the US18 team would play different lineups vs DI / DIII teams. Believe me the DI board members let us know about it when it was brought up (because it was several times - especially when SNC tied the almighty)

Having said that, I have noticed more so recently that the rosters do NOT change much, as was pointed out.

I compiled all of Plattsburghs records vs DI teams (not current DI who were DIII ala RIT, Niagara, Canisius).

Alaska Anchorage 1 2 0
Alaska Fairbank 0 2 0
Army 2 6 0
Boston College 0 1 0
Clarkson 1 4 0
Colgate 1 5 0
Cornell 0 1 0
Maine 0 1 0
Mankato State 1 0 0
UMASS Lowell 2 4 0
New Hampshire 0 0 1
Notre Dame 2 0
Princeton 0 2 0
Providence 1 0 0
RPI 0 2 0
St. Lawrence 0 5 1
Vermont 3 4 0
14 39 2


Funny thing is we say how "close" it was back in the day. In 1987 (arguably Plattsburghs best team (and one of DIIIs best) the Cardinals best Alaska Anchorage 5-4 but then lost the next night 13-3. They also got killed by Fairbanks too that year. In 1992 (another Championship year) they played at Clarkson. I remember it being somewhat close for a few but Clarkson ended up winning 8-2 I want to say. In those years Plattsburgh was one of the best DIII programs and were getting slaughtered.

Now fast forward to recent years vs US18 teams (not bad).

A St.Norbert team (who lost in their Conference Finals - no NCAA year) tied Wisconsin in the 14-15 season (we think). But it was also a 4 win Wisconsin team.

RIT also lost to Oswego their first year DI. I know "first year", but RIT was having close games versus established DI schools (winning a few) that same year.

So not sure I would say the gap had widened. I dont think anyone is saying Norwich is competing for an ECAC DI title, let alone a Hockey East of Big10 title. But I could see as constructed right now a team like Utica, Norwich, Geneseo, UWSP all middle of the pack to maybe top 1/3 in like the AHA and giving competitive games to many others (2-3 goal losses).

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

Back when I was playing (I hate using that phrase) in the early 00’s, about half of the guys on my DIII (NESCAC) team had at least some interest from DI programs prior to going to college and most ended up playing DIII because they didn’t want to play multiple years of juniors. It definitely wasn’t uncommon back then for the top of DIII to be able to compete with the low end of DI, especially the MAAC/Atlantic Hockey teams which were less than a decade from being DIII themselves.

However, I’d agree with others that have said the gap has widened over the intervening years. First off, the bottom of DI has gotten better simply by being in that competitive arena. Second, look at all the guys who show up as 20/21 year old Freshman in DI after multiple years of playing juniors. Back 15-20 years ago, those guys played DIII. Being a 20/21 year old Freshman simply wasn’t as common back then.

From personal experience, I had a couple solid DI offers (small partial scholarship, not full, mid to lower tier ECAC teams) that were contingent upon me playing juniors after three years at prep school. At the time, my dad was against it and he was paying the bills so that was that, though if I had fought for it hard I might’ve been able to convince him. In today’s environment I’d have gone to the USHL and played DI. Also, at the time the USHL and NAHL were on pretty equal footing, the USHL was beginning to pull away but the gap wasn’t nearly what it is today. Was I “good enough” to play DI? Yes. Would I have been a difference-maker? Probably not, though who knows what extra development time and coaching could have done. But looking at my life today, I’m probably better off that I went where I did.

To sum up, that is why the gap between DIII and DI has widened, primarily because many of the older DI players you see today would’ve played DIII back in the day.

Great post, right from the horse's mouth.

Thanks!

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

This is not true at all. Its always the same U18 NTDP team that plays against every college team, D1 or D3. A quick search shows it was the exact same roster for their games vs Wisconsin and Adrian.

Things do get tailored when it comes to their play in the USHL. But when it comes to the college games its strictly the 18s

That's what I've seen as well.

And that squad tends to hammer D-3 teams which are composed (mostly) of guys 4-6 years older.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

That's what I've seen as well.

And that squad tends to hammer D-3 teams which are composed (mostly) of guys 4-6 years older.

I didnt know wins of 3-1, 2-1, 4-2, and 2-5 (L), 1-4 (L), 5-4 (L) were hammering teams

Since 2015-2016 the average score is:
DIII: 2.5 goals a game vs USNDTP18 4.9

Yes they do have a couple 5+ a goal game blowouts (4 of the 14 games to be exact in that time period), but they are not "hammering" teams every game.

 

[golightning77]

I didnt know wins of 3-1, 2-1, 4-2, and 2-5 (L), 1-4 (L), 5-4 (L) were hammering teams

Since 2015-2016 the average score is:
DIII: 2.5 goals a game vs USNDTP18 4.9

Yes they do have a couple 5+ a goal game blowouts (4 of the 14 games to be exact in that time period), but they are not "hammering" teams ever
y game.

I always found the game to be quite interesting,,, You have the older college guys that in no way want to lose to 18 year olds and want to test their skills against a very good size and skill 18 year old team, most of which will be drafted and a few would be playing in the NHL the following year.

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

Oswego played a dooozie vs The USA U18 team a few yrs back,sold out stadium,both teams played well,I do remember Austin Matthews.....Oz won 5-3 I believe will have to check....edit 2013-14 season Oswego wins 5-3 ..gets out shot 33-16...USA 1st line was Tkachuk,Matthews Bracco,with McAvoy on D...not bad....the USA kids played all out for sure...who knows??

 

[UMD21]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

I wouldn’t be surprised. As you see “blue blood” schools losing their market share of championships to smaller schools, you notice how important team chemistry becomes. A school like BU or UW can be loaded with talent, but with all these guys one-and-done or maybe two years, team chemistry never develops. D3 doesn’t have that problem. Another case in point, look at how Union creamed Minnesota in the championship 6 years ago. I don’t remember any games where UMD played a D3 school (unless you count Canadian schools the equivalent), but I imagine if they did they would be playing 3rd-4th lines a lot (which they do already), but also third string goalies. So comparing outcomes of exhibition/scrimmages may not be a fair measuring stick. We lose to the U18 team or Canadian schools all the time yet still win the championship later in the year

 

[JSicedog]

I wouldn’t be surprised. As you see “blue blood” schools losing their market share of championships to smaller schools, you notice how important team chemistry becomes. A school like BU or UW can be loaded with talent, but with all these guys one-and-done or maybe two years, team chemistry never develops. D3 doesn’t have that problem. Another case in point, look at how Union creamed Minnesota in the championship 6 years ago. I don’t remember any games where UMD played a D3 school (unless you count Canadian schools the equivalent), but I imagine if they did they would be playing 3rd-4th lines a lot (which they do already), but also third string goalies. So comparing outcomes of exhibition/scrimmages may not be a fair measuring stick. We lose to the U18 team or Canadian schools all the time yet still win the championship later in the year

Can you explain what a fair measuring stick would be then? Thats really the only thing we can go off

 

[UMD21]

Can you explain what a fair measuring stick would be then? Thats really the only thing we can go off

Only if say D3 champ got an autobid into D1 tournament. But there’s probably more parity in D3 vs D1 hockey than say D1 vs D1A or whatever in football—those teams get cooked consistently like a steak in a closed top grill

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Only if say D3 champ got an autobid into D1 tournament. But there’s probably more parity in D3 vs D1 hockey than say D1 vs D1A or whatever in football—those teams get cooked consistently like a steak in a closed top grill

They do...its called the AHA...

 

[golightning77]

Only if say D3 champ got an autobid into D1 tournament. But there’s probably more parity in D3 vs D1 hockey than say D1 vs D1A or whatever in football—those teams get cooked consistently like a steak in a closed top grill

I think whoever said the top 10 D3 and the Bottom 10 D1 would be close is about as close as we can gage,,, U18 played 2 D3 teams this year , lost to Adrian 4-1 and beat Hamline 9-1 so a big difference in the D3 ranks ,,,, in all honestly ,, the Adrian game wasn’t as close as the score indicated.,,, Adrians next games against Utica looked more like 2 evenly matched teams ,,,

 

[JSicedog]

They do...its called the AHA...

+1

 

[DavidNardolillo]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

But there’s probably more parity in D3 vs D1 hockey than say D1 vs D1A or whatever in football—those teams get cooked consistently like a steak in a closed top grill

I am not sure about that. The top football teams in Division I-AA (Football Championship Subdivision or FCS) regularly cause all kinds of problems for Division I (Football Bowl Subdivision or FBS) teams, even the big conference schools. https://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/fcs-wins-vs-fbs-teams-all-time-victories-upsets.

There are also way more FCS players in the NFL than D3 players in the NHL. I think that reflects a huge difference in the size of the player pool that supplies the NFL and the technical difference between the two sports--if you want to improve at football, you have to play in real games, and there is a big difference between being the third string quarterback in football and the third line center in hockey--dropping down to D3 probably doesn't make sense for the third line center, but it might make sense for the third string quarterback to look at FCS.

 

[DavidNardolillo]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

Back when I was playing (I hate using that phrase) in the early 00’s, about half of the guys on my DIII (NESCAC) team had at least some interest from DI programs prior to going to college and most ended up playing DIII because they didn’t want to play multiple years of juniors. It definitely wasn’t uncommon back then for the top of DIII to be able to compete with the low end of DI, especially the MAAC/Atlantic Hockey teams which were less than a decade from being DIII themselves.

However, I’d agree with others that have said the gap has widened over the intervening years. First off, the bottom of DI has gotten better simply by being in that competitive arena. Second, look at all the guys who show up as 20/21 year old Freshman in DI after multiple years of playing juniors. Back 15-20 years ago, those guys played DIII. Being a 20/21 year old Freshman simply wasn’t as common back then.

From personal experience, I had a couple solid DI offers (small partial scholarship, not full, mid to lower tier ECAC teams) that were contingent upon me playing juniors after three years at prep school. At the time, my dad was against it and he was paying the bills so that was that, though if I had fought for it hard I might’ve been able to convince him. In today’s environment I’d have gone to the USHL and played DI. Also, at the time the USHL and NAHL were on pretty equal footing, the USHL was beginning to pull away but the gap wasn’t nearly what it is today. Was I “good enough” to play DI? Yes. Would I have been a difference-maker? Probably not, though who knows what extra development time and coaching could have done. But looking at my life today, I’m probably better off that I went where I did.

To sum up, that is why the gap between DIII and DI has widened, primarily because many of the older DI players you see today would’ve played DIII back in the day.

Very insightful comments. Thank you for sharing.

 

[d3hockey57]

I am not sure about that. The top football teams in Division I-AA (Football Championship Subdivision or FCS) regularly cause all kinds of problems for Division I (Football Bowl Subdivision or FBS) teams, even the big conference schools. https://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/fcs-wins-vs-fbs-teams-all-time-victories-upsets.

There are also way more FCS players in the NFL than D3 players in the NHL. I think that reflects a huge difference in the size of the player pool that supplies the NFL and the technical difference between the two sports--if you want to improve at football, you have to play in real games, and there is a big difference between being the third string quarterback in football and the third line center in hockey--dropping down to D3 probably doesn't make sense for the third line center, but it might make sense for the third string quarterback to look at FCS.

The NCAA is only one component that supplies the NHL, whereas the OHL/WHL/QMJHL, and the European leagues contribute to NHL talent. The NFL is ONLY supplied by the NCAA.

 

[DavidNardolillo]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

The NCAA is only one component that supplies the NHL, whereas the OHL/WHL/QMJHL, and the European leagues contribute to NHL talent. The NFL is ONLY supplied by the NCAA.

Good point, although that doesn't do much for the argument that I was responding to--the argument that the gap between D3 and D1 hockey was narrower than between FCS and FBS football divisions. There may be more competition in feeder leagues for the NHL, but that would suggest that the talent is even less likely to flow to D3.