Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

[golightning77]

It’s the age old question that can never be answered but there are some smart people here ,, I would love to hear your opinion.
Just for fun, let’s assume a best of the rest 16 team national tourney , assuming neutral site play......
Utica/RIT,,,,, Norwich/Vermont ,,,, Geneseo/Canisius ,,,,,, Adrian/Ferris State,,,,,, Eau Claire/Wisconsin,,,,, Hobart/Niagara ,,,, Norbert/Northern MI,,,,, Endicott/ Merrimack
Obviously this is for fun only ,, with virtually no crossover games and absolutely ZERO incentive for a D1 team to ever cross over,, Also notice they are top D3 teams against Ok D1 teams, so the question is.... Does any D3 team advance ?

 

[nascoo]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

Years ago D3 could scrimmage or even schedule D1 schools. Vermont played a lot of close games with NU & PSU.
NU last played at Dartmouth 8-10 years an totally dominated the game outshooting 2-1 if memory serves losing 3-2.
Dartmouth was not a good team, NU was top 5.

I think the top 2-3 D3 teams "could beat" lowest tier say bottom 20% of D1 schools on any given night. No they are
not going to be competitive against top tier teams, not going to happen. IMO

 

[NUProf]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

The Dartmouth/NU games were closer than you might think. I was there for the last one (the last NU game I attended, because we were back visiting Vermont in the fall that year.) There was a gap but it wasn't a gulf. Today, watching DI and DIII games on TV or going to occasional DI games at University of Denver, I think the gap has widened, mostly because the pool of DIII talent has become more diluted with an increased number of players in DIII. The top DIII teams aren't able to monopolize all the talent. The 1999-2000 Norwich team was loaded with talent that probably would be on a DI roster today. Utica would beat RIT. Norwich would give UVM a real go. A lot of the difference is size, not skill. DIII teams need to look in the "nooks and crannies" to find talent. Tom Aubrun is a good example of a DI quality player who probably fell through the cracks, because how many unknown hockey players are you going to find in France who play at that level?

 

[GreenBear]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

I agree with what's been posted: I think the gap between the bottom D1 and top D3 is small indeed. But the further up the PWR in D1, the steeper the gap becomes, and very quickly.

At the bottom, though? Using Norwich/Dartmouth as an example as I have seen both of those teams lately, I think Dartmouth would beat Norwich 4 times out of 5, but not with any blowouts. (Also, Dartmouth was more of a mid-pack team this year, so it depends on what Dartmouth team showed up: the one that beat Clarkson and Cornell or the one that was just swept at home by Princeton).

But I don't care how good Utica and Norwich are--while they could beat Dartmouth and Yale, they'd be massive underdogs against the Cormells, BCs and Minnesota-Duluth's of the world. They could steal a game if everything went well, but there is definitely a big gap in talent there.

I'd be interested in some D3/D1 games between the higher up/lower tier teams.

 

[DIIIFan]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

The top D3 teams may be able complete with the lower tier D1 teams, but never to mid to top teams. Just to much scouting by D1, scholarships, and pathway to the pros. What is left for D3 is what you are seeing in today's game. You will never see a top D1 school schedule a top D3 program. The days of this happening are loooooong gone. When the Lakers had their 50th year celebration I was fortunate enough to talk with a fella who recounted a scrimmage with Cornell the year they went undefeated. Well Oswego won and Ned Harkness had the Cornell players do laps till they were just about dead.
Oswego'88

 

[Tom Coughlin]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

SNC tied UW in a scrimmage a few years ago, but who knows if UW played their top guys, etc. It'd be fun if they played UW or NMU on an annual basis but that will obviously never happen.

EDIT: October 25, 2014. I couldn't find a press release on the SNC website. Maybe SNCSID can chime in for more info on this "closed scrimmage".

 

[DavidNardolillo]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

I agree with what's been posted: I think the gap between the bottom D1 and top D3 is small indeed. But the further up the PWR in D1, the steeper the gap becomes, and very quickly.

At the bottom, though? Using Norwich/Dartmouth as an example as I have seen both of those teams lately, I think Dartmouth would beat Norwich 4 times out of 5, but not with any blowouts. (Also, Dartmouth was more of a mid-pack team this year, so it depends on what Dartmouth team showed up: the one that beat Clarkson and Cornell or the one that was just swept at home by Princeton).

But I don't care how good Utica and Norwich are--while they could beat Dartmouth and Yale, they'd be massive underdogs against the Cormells, BCs and Minnesota-Duluth's of the world. They could steal a game if everything went well, but there is definitely a big gap in talent there.

I'd be interested in some D3/D1 games between the higher up/lower tier teams.

There are a number of former RPI players at the DIII level this year. Almost all of them are far more productive offensively. Three of them will be competing in the DIII NCAA tournament this year (Utica, UWEC, UST). One of the players is top 5 on his team in scoring, and another is the second leading scorer. I think one key difference between the levels is the speed of the players--the ability to get just a split second more in open ice to shoot or create makes a big difference. Some of them clearly have the hands to play DI, just not the ability to get into open ice to maximize those skills. That said, scoring talent is at a premium at the DI level, and a number of DI teams have a line or two of players who are borderline.

When I was a kid, the 35-2-1 RPI '85 National Championship team (with Adam Oates, Darren Puppa, John Carter, et al.) needed OT to beat then-DIII Union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_RPI_Engineers_men's_ice_hockey_season. I don't know if any RPI players got the night off (midweek game sandwiched between ECAC weekends), but goes to show you that anything can happen. Union (still DIII) wound up beating RPI in the first game of the 88-89 season: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icegrYh6knU

 

[UCfan30]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

In my honest opinion, and as mentioned, if you put some of the top D3 teams against some of the lower-tier D1 schools, I think you'd see some close games. If you try to go against any high-tier program, expect an absolute blowout lol. D1 recruiting, based on the school, is superior to some D3. Many jump at the opportunity to play for such a well-known program and is a reason why you see a lot of future NHL-caliber talent go the D1 route. Not saying it couldn't happen in a D3 school, just more rare to see.

 

[pete99race]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

SNC tied UW in a scrimmage a few years ago, but who knows if UW played their top guys, etc. It'd be fun if they played UW or NMU on an annual basis but that will obviously never happen.

EDIT: October 25, 2014. I couldn't find a press release on the SNC website. Maybe SNCSID can chime in for more info on this "closed scrimmage".

SNC led 3 - 2 late in the scrimmage but the Badgers scored to tie it.. final: 3 - 3.
As I recall, the Badgers played their regular roster...

 

[NUProf]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

SNC led 3 - 2 late in the scrimmage but the Badgers scored to tie it.. final: 3 - 3.
As I recall, the Badgers played their regular roster...

Wasn't that the super-secret game that nobody was allowed to attend or report on - and there was no COVID-19 involved either.

 

[pete99race]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

Wasn't that the super-secret game that nobody was allowed to attend or report on - and there was no COVID-19 involved either.

Originally it was a 60 minute game/exhibition style contest. But, UW changed their mind and claimed, since there was a football game in Madison in the afternoon, they did not have enough personnel to properly operate the LeBahn Arena that night. They changed it to an 'invitation only event'....mainly team personnel and parents...
The reasoning does not ring true, as they have had two home games (afternoon and night) before and since that date....

 

[IceKnights20]

It’s the age old question that can never be answered but there are some smart people here ,, I would love to hear your opinion.
Just for fun, let’s assume a best of the rest 16 team national tourney , assuming neutral site play......
Utica/RIT,,,,, Norwich/Vermont ,,,, Geneseo/Canisius ,,,,,, Adrian/Ferris State,,,,,, Eau Claire/Wisconsin,,,,, Hobart/Niagara ,,,, Norbert/Northern MI,,,,, Endicott/ Merrimack
Obviously this is for fun only ,, with virtually no crossover games and absolutely ZERO incentive for a D1 team to ever cross over,, Also notice they are top D3 teams against Ok D1 teams, so the question is.... Does any D3 team advance ?

Having seen the most of Geneseo and RIT, Geneseo could definitely beat RIT. Not saying it would happen but I wouldn’t be surprised if it did. (I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing this a an exhibition schedule every year) That said Geneseo is one of the top D3 teams and RIT is at best a middle of the pack D1 team. Once you start talking top tier D1 teams no one in D3 has a chance

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

Have not seen to much D1 hockey,that said I would imagine the top 10ish D3 teams could hold their own vs.the D1 lite teams...I think the biggest factor besides speed is the depth of the D1 teams that would give the D3 teams trouble..

 

[golightning77]

Have not seen to much D1 hockey,that said I would imagine the top 10ish D3 teams could hold their own vs.the D1 lite teams...I think the biggest factor besides speed is the depth of the D1 teams that would give the D3 teams trouble..

Im of the same view ,,, the top 10 D3 teams would be right there with the bottom 30 D1 teams,,,, maybe the bottom 40,,,, I just don’t see Niagara being able to overwhelm our top teams

 

[d3hockey57]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

I’d like to add that looking at the pro signings, it’s about 50/50 DI/DIII in the ECHL and SPHL, which speaks for the level which the DIII players are at. The disparity comes when you start seeing the NHL/AHL signings.

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

I’d like to add that looking at the pro signings, it’s about 50/50 DI/DIII in the ECHL and SPHL, which speaks for the level which the DIII players are at. The disparity comes when you start seeing the NHL/AHL signings.

10-4 nailed it

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

I’d like to add that looking at the pro signings, it’s about 50/50 DI/DIII in the ECHL and SPHL, which speaks for the level which the DIII players are at. The disparity comes when you start seeing the NHL/AHL signings.

Huge gulf between the ECHL/SPHL and the AHL, never mind The Show itself.

Let's say that Utica is as good as it gets in D-3 this year. I'm guessing that they'd be no higher than PWR 40 in D-1, and probably somewhat lower.

Don't kid yourselves people, there's a reason guys transfer to D-3, and it's not about making the NHL. It's just about ice-time.

It's truly apples and oranges here.

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

Huge gulf between the ECHL/SPHL and the AHL, never mind The Show itself.

Let's say that Utica is as good as it gets in D-3 this year. I'm guessing that they'd be no higher than PWR 40 in D-1, and probably somewhat lower.

Don't kid yourselves people, there's a reason guys transfer to D-3, and it's not about making the NHL. It's just about ice-time.

It's truly apples and oranges here.

Ice time is a key for sure,but we at Oz have had many D1 transfers,that have played 3rd and 4th lines and have not lit-up the score sheet,not a bunt as far as that is concerned.

 

[joecct]

Ice time is a key for sure,but we at Oz have had many D1 transfers,that have played 3rd and 4th lines and have not lit-up the score sheet,not a bunt as far as that is concerned.

Cramps!!

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Has the gap between D1 and D3 closed?

Cramps!!