Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

[driventoit]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Hmmm... A while back someone was posting (actually boasting) that Harvard's rink would be lively during the play-offs courtesy the band. I recall watching a couple of the Yale games online and not hearing a band at all. Not sure if they were there or not.

So true. The band missed at least 8 of my 10+ appearances, and little or no presence online. Same sorry story last year. They do seem to make one Beanpot game, but that's a weeknight with no competition from that blasted round ball. Too bad; any band is better than none at the rink, IMHO.

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Not so fast. I'm coming hat in hand to you (and others) for responses to Blackbeard and Trillium's observations. I, who have never shot a puck in my life (they put me in goal since I couldn't skate!), am using their posts to support a maybe naive question about how such skating and passing skill as we often see in the league translates so infrequently to really shooting the puck, esp. on odd-man rushes and breakaways, when finesse and accuracy are as important as speed. I'm asking the HOCKEY elders, of whatever age, for help!....
QUOTE]

If I had better knowledge of youth and collegiate hockey, I'd chip in. But my feeble coaching efforts were directed towards youth soccer, where there was a very public controversy as to whether suburban youth soccer coaches had raised generations of conformists who play disciplined systems diligently but lack the offensive creativity of playground soccer. Although Bobby Orr, in his recent book, comes close to echoing that observation (he says that his style of play would be frowned on in youth hockey today as constituting puck-hogging) Blackbeard and Trillium's observations are somewhat different: not necessarily that women at the college level lack creativity (in the sense of those few NHLers who've done 360 degree spinorama moves during penalty shots) but that they aren't disciplined by practice to snap off a high percentage shot at one of the upper corners but instead look for a five hole that won't be there if the goalie plays a butterfly style or worse, shoot straight at the belly button. As Vic Braden said of shot selection in tennis, "you could try something real fancy, but then again you could go for that same old boring topspin winner." So I'm at sea as to whether collegiate players need more individual creativity or more practice at boring old high percentage shots.

In other words, I've just used my HLS education to frame the discussion analytically without actually knowing anything about the subject.

My only observation about the Crimson players is that D'Oench seems to employ regularly a repertoire of toe drags and other finesse moves that few of the other players attempt except late in blowouts.

 

[driventoit]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

[/QUOTE:] [Watson Rink.] If I had better knowledge of youth and collegiate hockey, I'd chip in. But my feeble coaching efforts were directed towards youth soccer, where there was a very public controversy as to whether suburban youth soccer coaches had raised generations of conformists who play disciplined systems diligently but lack the offensive creativity of playground soccer. Although Bobby Orr, in his recent book, comes close to echoing that observation (he says that his style of play would be frowned on in youth hockey today as constituting puck-hogging) Blackbeard and Trillium's observations are somewhat different: not necessarily that women at the college level lack creativity (in the sense of those few NHLers who've done 360 degree spinorama moves during penalty shots) but that they aren't disciplined by practice to snap off a high percentage shot at one of the upper corners but instead look for a five hole that won't be there if the goalie plays a butterfly style or worse, shoot straight at the belly button. As Vic Braden said of shot selection in tennis, "you could try something real fancy, but then again you could go for that same old boring topspin winner." So I'm at sea as to whether collegiate players need more individual creativity or more practice at boring old high percentage shots.

In other words, I've just used my HLS education to frame the discussion analytically without actually knowing anything about the subject.

My only observation about the Crimson players is that D'Oench seems to employ regularly a repertoire of toe drags and other finesse moves that few of the other players attempt except late in blowouts.[/QUOTE]


Excellent "framing." Thank you. We'll just have to wait together to see if anyone wades into these waters, but given the pre-FF obsession with all things non-hockey, we might have a long wait.

 

[THEWIZARD]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I think someone posted that they were disappointed by the production out of Reber...well let's dig a little deeper. Reber never made a U-18 team if memory serves me. That being said the biggest disappointment this year would have to be the the lack of production from the 3 time U-18 team selection and all world player Daniels. Her freshman year was lackluster at best so if you are going to look for a lack of production I think you should look under this rock. 2 goals and 4 assists in her last 18 games is hardly what was expected from her. Is she big...yes....can she skate....yes...but take a close look as nothing gets accomplished out there. There is a lot of flash and not much accomplished. The thought was she would step right in and be a force....well not so much. Sad to say but there was a much higher expectation level from Daniels and it was far from lived up to. As they say , it can only get better from here. Hopefully the return of the Olympians and the incoming freshman can add some much needed fire power to the Crimson attack.

 

[OldDave]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Excellent "framing." Thank you. We'll just have to wait together to see if anyone wades into these waters, but given the pre-FF obsession with all things non-hockey, we might have a long wait.

I also thought it was excellent framing.

Not having played or coached hockey, I’m afraid I cannot add the sort of expertise that others may offer. However, as a long-time fan of hockey, I do have some observations to offer.

One is that coaching has changed over the years. I remember a time when you could have painted lines on the ice and players never left their “lanes”. I’m glad those days are gone. The game is more sophisticated now, which makes skill, imagination, and communication higher priorities.

A second is that over the last handful of years, I also have observed WCHA and especially MN players getting noticeably better over their careers. The difference appears to be one of strength and experience. For example, an incoming freshman might have a lot of speed, but finds it difficult to translate that into goals. She is not used to defenders who have similar speed and lean on her all the way up the ice. As she becomes stronger, she finds she can keep control of the puck. As she gains experience, she discovers ways to avoid or even use the defender to her purpose.

A third is that no matter the sport, kids want to master skill “x” as soon as they see it for the first time, and they will practice it incessantly until they master it. Given that, the pickup hockey out on the pond was often the only place that younger kids could learn skills from older players. Now, though, they have social media, and they can learn from hundreds of videos and practice a wider variety of new skills in their basement or driveway. In this new environment, it isn’t surprising how many Gopher women confessed they had never played outdoors just prior to the program’s first outdoor game earlier this year.

I join you in waiting for the expert opinions.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I think someone posted that they were disappointed by the production out of Reber...well let's dig a little deeper. Reber never made a U-18 team if memory serves me. That being said the biggest disappointment this year would have to be the the lack of production from the 3 time U-18 team selection and all world player Daniels. Her freshman year was lackluster at best so if you are going to look for a lack of production I think you should look under this rock. 2 goals and 4 assists in her last 18 games is hardly what was expected from her. Is she big...yes....can she skate....yes...but take a close look as nothing gets accomplished out there. There is a lot of flash and not much accomplished. The thought was she would step right in and be a force....well not so much. Sad to say but there was a much higher expectation level from Daniels and it was far from lived up to. As they say , it can only get better from here. Hopefully the return of the Olympians and the incoming freshman can add some much needed fire power to the Crimson attack.

Agreed on the relative performance of both players versus expectation. I suspect my reply to the original critique by Skate on Reber was buried amongst the financial debates, so I'm reposting it again below:

"I agree with charlieconway and dave1381 that you are being quite unfairly harsh wrt Reber. By any objective measure she had an excellent season. It should be hard to complain about any player in the Top 15 in the ECAC in points, especially one who does not have the obvious natural gifts of a Babstock, Saulnier, Rattray et al.

Comparing her 13-14 production more directly to other Harvard forward predecessors, she's also done remarkably well. She posted more points than Buesser and Wilson did in their senior years, and more than Ryabkina ever achieved in any season. Buesser and Wilson only ever topped her output once. Otherwise, since 2006, only Vaillancourt and Brine (all 4 years), Dempsey (twice), and Fry (twice) ever achieved as much points-wise than Reber until Crowe and D'Oench outpaced her this season--and I don't think too many would argue that she has comparable natural scoring gifts to those players. She also has not had the luxury of playing alongside an Olympian or Kaz nominee."

I was not aware that Daniels was a 3 time US U18 player. In that context, given her ample ice time she certainly did under-deliver offensively this season versus what one might have expected given those credentials. Not to mention as has already been pointed out the added liability of 42 penalty minutes, more 3 times that of her points. Having seen her a few times, what I most noticed was a lot of unnecessary roughness rather than particular stand-out skills. Perhaps she's just had an "off" year, trying to find a balance between managing high level academics and athletics in new surroundings. It happens. She may surprise next season.

In comparison to her teammates without those lofty competitive credentials, D'Oench had the same number of points last year as a freshman, but more goals and only 6 PIM--despite significantly less ice time and, according to Skate at least "she was nothing to write home about". (though I always thought she was incredibly talented and deserved far more ice last season). Similarly, Reber and Crowe both significantly outpaced her as freshmen, posting 24 points/10 PIM and 20 points/6 PIM respectively.

However, in fairness it may also be worth pointing out that Fry didn't exactly set the world on fire as a freshman either with 11 points (albeit with some ice time constraints). We all know where she ended up.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

"Weird or goofy or pathetic" certainly doesn't rule out a late night, beer pong-driven decision by a musician or two to start spring break in Madison; but the numbers would be crucial here: did more than a handful show up at La Bahn? Whatever.

I'm more interested in getting some of the elders/sages to comment on Blackbeard's noting and lamenting the lack of decent shooters in the league(s) ("shooting drills don't occur because D1 players are supposed to know how to shoot" ---paraphrasing BB paraphrasing a D1 player) and Trillium's comment on the Gophers' thread that "not many D1 coaches actually develop their players, probably an important competitive differentiator for Minnesota." Pretty striking comments . . .

I will eventually respond once I gather my thoughts on the subject, but as it's a complex subject with a lot of variables, I think it's more than one post. It certainly deserves it's own thread too rather than clogging up the Harvard one, as it's not a Harvard-specific topic. I actually think this would be a really good off-season thread.

 

[dontyelldad]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Do you mind bumping a currency thread on the cafe and continuing there? Thanks.

Thank you!

That will make it easier for me to find, in the not too distant future, when I come back to look for investment advice from anonymous posters on a hockey board.

 

[UCONN FAN]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I think someone posted that they were disappointed by the production out of Reber...well let's dig a little deeper. Reber never made a U-18 team if memory serves me. That being said the biggest disappointment this year would have to be the the lack of production from the 3 time U-18 team selection and all world player Daniels. Her freshman year was lackluster at best so if you are going to look for a lack of production I think you should look under this rock. 2 goals and 4 assists in her last 18 games is hardly what was expected from her. Is she big...yes....can she skate....yes...but take a close look as nothing gets accomplished out there. There is a lot of flash and not much accomplished. The thought was she would step right in and be a force....well not so much. Sad to say but there was a much higher expectation level from Daniels and it was far from lived up to. As they say , it can only get better from here. Hopefully the return of the Olympians and the incoming freshman can add some much needed fire power to the Crimson attack.

What a coward you are to attack an 18 year old girl like this. Your critique is personal and mean spirited. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

What a coward you are to attack an 18 year old girl like this. Your critique is personal and mean spirited. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Well said!

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Seems like somebody should start a new Punching Bag of the Month thread with a poll for the (past or present) Harvard player who has drawn the most persistent and severe criticism for her individual play from anonymous posters? This month the finalists are Reber, Daniels...Chu...who's next?

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

If we want to talk about individual players, we might do well to look at Trillium's thoughtful, measured and constructive analysis (post #686) a few posts above this one. All players have strengths as well as flaws, and wise critics recognize both.

 

[clarksoncluck]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I have seen Daniels play 3 - 4 times this year. I like her style of play. She is aggressive, intense, with some scoring touch and a little nasty. She in my mind is a jazzed down Rattray with more toughness. So giver her a chance. As others have said, she is 18, and most of the posters are taking vitamins to keep everything in balance. As a parent of some hockey kids that are now grown, I know I put them under a lot of pressure way to early in life, and I don't look back and make apologies, but very few of us have to balance academics and athletics. In this case Daniels has to survive being a freshman at a very prestigious school. So I agree, don't go and beat up these young students too much. If it were your child that others were attacking either on a blog or in person you would definitely get perturbed. I think some posters say things that just try to get the blood flowing, but people should really think about what they are saying.

I think about all this social media bullying and cyber bullying, and I have to believe that some are crossing the line.

So if you think you can just post and not be accountable for what you say, you may be sadly mistaken.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I have seen Daniels play 3 - 4 times this year. I like her style of play. She is aggressive, intense, with some scoring touch and a little nasty. She in my mind is a jazzed down Rattray with more toughness. So giver her a chance. As others have said, she is 18, and most of the posters are taking vitamins to keep everything in balance. As a parent of some hockey kids that are now grown, I know I put them under a lot of pressure way to early in life, and I don't look back and make apologies, but very few of us have to balance academics and athletics. In this case Daniels has to survive being a freshman at a very prestigious school. So I agree, don't go and beat up these young students too much. If it were your child that others were attacking either on a blog or in person you would definitely get perturbed. I think some posters say things that just try to get the blood flowing, but people should really think about what they are saying.

100% agree with this. I've seen Daniels play 3 times live and several more times on stream. She stood out in the first time I saw her. I had never heard of her before this season. From what I've seen there is great up-side potential with this player. She got skill, speed, size and an edge to her game. If she can control the latter, she might very well become a dominant player down the road. I would not be so fast to throw her under the bus after a decent rookie season.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Seems like somebody should start a new Punching Bag of the Month thread with a poll for the (past or present) Harvard player who has drawn the most persistent and severe criticism for her individual play from anonymous posters? This month the finalists are Reber, Daniels...Chu...who's next?

Okay so it seems as if I am drawing the ire of posters for some comments about Harvard players. I guess for the umpteenth time I will have to clarify.

Regarding Sam Reber. I said she was very talented and yes, I expected more from her this year. What's wrong with that? I also said that Crowe and D'Oench stepped up big time this year. Up until midway through last year, I wasn't seeing from D'Oench what I saw this year. Sure, ice time is critical and all the forwards this year got more of it because of a lack of depth. That is why in part I expected more from Reber. I don't see how that is making someone a punching bag.

And as far as Daniels is concerned, I really like her as a player. Okay, she takes a few too many penalties but she plays hard and doesn't take a shift off. Her physical style does lend itself to more injuries but I'm less worried about that than her penalties. Actually, overall, I'd like to see Harvard spend less time in the sin bin next season.

We all have opinions and insights based on what we see either in person or on video stream. I'd just like it if people would refrain from taking comments out of context. I don't think that is asking for too much.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Skate, watson and Veritas.....Should your focus not be on Squeaky ball for Tomorrow.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Skate, watson and Veritas.....Should your focus not be on Squeaky ball for Tomorrow.

Absolutely! I'll be watching. Very proud of what the guys have accomplished this year. As the Cincy coach said, it wasn't an upset losing to the Crimson. At least Harvard didn't blow apart my bracket the way UND and Mercer did last night and today. Cripes!

 

[ARM]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Absolutely! I'll be watching. Very proud of what the guys have accomplished this year. As the Cincy coach said, it wasn't an upset losing to the Crimson. At least Harvard didn't blow apart my bracket the way UND and Mercer did last night and today. Cripes!

That was NDSU (from Fargo), not UND (from Grand Forks.)

 

[Skate79]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

That was NDSU (from Fargo), not UND (from Grand Forks.)

Right. My bad. An even bigger upset.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

That was NDSU (from Fargo), not UND (from Grand Forks.)

When the local radio guys were referencing this on the morning show (To set context, sports show with a comedic/sarcastic/guys having fun angle to it, 95% hockey, sometimes sprinkles of other sports), the one guy asked:

- Where is NDSU
A: From North Dakota
- Where the hell is that
A: That is close to Canada
- Where
A: like an extension of Canada
- But you should remember where this is:
...Clip with ten thousands JAAAH's is cueed up and played, ending with the reference to the woodchipper
- Oh Jeah, worst movies ever, they even talk like Canadians from up there....and they blabber on cimically about it for a minutes before turning back to hockey.

LOL.

P.S And I do know that the movie was based in Minnesota and shot in/near twin cities.