Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

On a more positive note, the power play looked great and it was especially gratifying to see Crimson forwards crashing the net to create rebounds. Just wish they would do more of that five on five instead of that endless cycle that goes nowhere.

Half of this Harvard team played for Assabet Valley. The cycle to nowhere is an Assabet Valley specialty - look at how many 1-0 and 2-1 games they have won over the past 15 years - they just simply don't score that much and don't really even generate that many shots. They stress puck ownership/control to control the game (which isn't really a bad idea). If half your team has spent their youth hockey career playing this style, it is going to be very difficult to get them out of it. So expect this to continue would be my belief.

Princeton targeted Gedman and Brianna Mastel consistently and their forwards were continually skating around and by both Harvard D.

Division 1 coaches (and USA Hockey) coaches want their defenseman to score first and play defense second. Both these players made the USA U-18 team based on their offensive skills (which are considerable), not their defensive ones. If Harvard stocks their team with an abundance of offensive defenseman (as they have), you certainly can't be surprised or complain that they are giving up tons of shots and/or goals due to poor defensive skills. It should be expected.

Also - what's up with Elizabeth Parker - see she missed the games this weekend? She is another offensive defenseman, but at least more bodies would allow for fresher players and fewer fatigue based mistakes...

 

[UCONN FAN]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Half of this Harvard team played for Assabet Valley. The cycle to nowhere is an Assabet Valley specialty - look at how many 1-0 and 2-1 games they have won over the past 15 years - they just simply don't score that much and don't really even generate that many shots. They stress puck ownership/control to control the game (which isn't really a bad idea). If half your team has spent their youth hockey career playing this style, it is going to be very difficult to get them out of it. So expect this to continue would be my belief.




Division 1 coaches (and USA Hockey) coaches want their defenseman to score first and play defense second. Both these players made the USA U-18 team based on their offensive skills (which are considerable), not their defensive ones. If Harvard stocks their team with an abundance of offensive defenseman (as they have), you certainly can't be surprised or complain that they are giving up tons of shots and/or goals due to poor defensive skills. It should be expected.

Also - what's up with Elizabeth Parker - see she missed the games this weekend? She is another offensive defenseman, but at least more bodies would allow for fresher players and fewer fatigue based mistakes...

Jillian Dempsey

 

[ARM]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Division 1 coaches (and USA Hockey) coaches want their defenseman to score first and play defense second.

While that does often seem to be true of USA Hockey, I do not share your opinion of D-I coaches valuing offense over defense. Even USA hockey may be evolving to value the defensive D more than in the past; Lee Stecklein's presence on the US centralization roster over college teammates like Rachel Ramsey and Milica McMillen with bigger offensive games suggests this. When I speak with young D at the college level, they are always saying how the coaches are stressing to them to take care of their own zone first. At the prep level coaches often will allow and even encourage their best offensive D to freelance, causing the defensive awareness to lag behind the offensive talents.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

While that does often seem to be true of USA Hockey, I do not share your opinion of D-I coaches valuing offense over defense. Even USA hockey may be evolving to value the defensive D more than in the past; Lee Stecklein's presence on the US centralization roster over college teammates like Rachel Ramsey and Milica McMillen with bigger offensive games suggests this. When I speak with young D at the college level, they are always saying how the coaches are stressing to them to take care of their own zone first. At the prep level coaches often will allow and even encourage their best offensive D to freelance, causing the defensive awareness to lag behind the offensive talents.

As I have noted in other threads, my experience does not line up with this. Some (some might even argue many/most) of the best defensive defenseman in the country are playing D3 because they didn't score and didn't get the recognition/recruiting that the high scoring defensemen got. The reason D1 coaches spend so much time coaching defense with young defenseman is that they generally aren't good defensively because they shined offensively and that is how they got recruited to D1 in the first place. At ANY D1 game, watch the defenseman skate backwards for a period. I guarantee that you will find that many (if not most) of the D play defense not by keeping the play in front of them while skating backward, but by turning to play defense skating forwards. This makes them vulnerable to both the cutback by a quick forward AND to being beaten wide by a faster forward (not to mention the lateral or backwards pass that they can't adjust to). You RARELY see a defenseman square up skating backwards and keep the play in front of them - it's just poor technique and it is rampant at the D1 level. Additionally, defensive zone coverage is often not adequate as well (but this can be taught/corrected more quickly).

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Jillian Dempsey

Watched her at Rivers and Assabet Valley and Harvard. Great player. My observation would be that she learned to freelance and score at youth hockey and Rivers (and Harvard and USA team camps) and that Assabet taught her how to cycle. Don't get me wrong, a reasonable amount of cycling is good hockey and generates goals. But you have to generate shots and goals off it - I did not see her do that nearly as much at Assabet as at Rivers or Harvard.

 

[ARM]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

At ANY D1 game, watch the defenseman skate backwards for a period. I guarantee that you will find that many (if not most) of the D play defense not by keeping the play in front of them while skating backward, but by turning to play defense skating forwards. This makes them vulnerable to both the cutback by a quick forward AND to being beaten wide by a faster forward (not to mention the lateral or backwards pass that they can't adjust to). You RARELY see a defenseman square up skating backwards and keep the play in front of them - it's just poor technique and it is rampant at the D1 level.

This isn't what I see. A very high percentage of the games I watch live are WCHA teams, and the D skate backwards. Sometimes, they do get burned on the edges, but that results from the coaches pushing to keep the gap small and opposing wings having some serious jets. There have been D over the years that skate so well that I would buy a ticket just to watch them skate.

A lot of what I see from teams in the East is from highlights where the play has already broken down, so I can't conclude that what I see on those plays is typical of what goes on the rest of the time. I guess we either agree to disagree or agree that you're watching different hockey games than I am.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

This isn't what I see. A very high percentage of the games I watch live are WCHA teams, and the D skate backwards. Sometimes, they do get burned on the edges, but that results from the coaches pushing to keep the gap small and opposing wings having some serious jets. There have been D over the years that skate so well that I would buy a ticket just to watch them skate.

A lot of what I see from teams in the East is from highlights where the play has already broken down, so I can't conclude that what I see on those plays is typical of what goes on the rest of the time. I guess we either agree to disagree or agree that you're watching different hockey games than I am.

Agree to disagree, but I am watching pretty much exclusively Eastern games so you may have a valid point there if the Western teams are different. If that is a difference between the two regions, that could be a partial explanation of why the Western teams have had such success against the Eastern teams in the NCAAs over the years.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I'm with ARM. I see defensemen in the WCHA skating backwards for the most part. I particular, on one play this weekend, Baylee Gillanders was behind the play and caught up skating forwards before turning about a stride inside the blueline and skating backwards while facing the forward. Given that you have raised the issue I'll try paying more attention to it, especially when Princeton is in town next month.

So maybe it is a regional thing.

 

[wwhyte]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I'm with ARM. I see defensemen in the WCHA skating backwards for the most part. I particular, on one play this weekend, Baylee Gillanders was behind the play and caught up skating forwards before turning about a stride inside the blueline and skating backwards while facing the forward. Given that you have raised the issue I'll try paying more attention to it, especially when Princeton is in town next month.

So maybe it is a regional thing.

I've never noticed an issue with skating backwards by BC or BC's opponents, though I have noticed that BC's freshman Ds have seen very little ice time so far this season -- maybe they're in intensive skating-backwards clinics

 

[DC78-82]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Watched her at Rivers and Assabet Valley and Harvard. Great player. My observation would be that she learned to freelance and score at youth hockey and Rivers (and Harvard and USA team camps) and that Assabet taught her how to cycle. Don't get me wrong, a reasonable amount of cycling is good hockey and generates goals. But you have to generate shots and goals off it - I did not see her do that nearly as much at Assabet as at Rivers or Harvard.

This isn't what I see. A very high percentage of the games I watch live are WCHA teams, and the D skate backwards. Sometimes, they do get burned on the edges, but that results from the coaches pushing to keep the gap small and opposing wings having some serious jets. There have been D over the years that skate so well that I would buy a ticket just to watch them skate.

A lot of what I see from teams in the East is from highlights where the play has already broken down, so I can't conclude that what I see on those plays is typical of what goes on the rest of the time. I guess we either agree to disagree or agree that you're watching different hockey games than I am.

I actually think both of you have made good points. The two statements that stand out to me are highlighted. If you want to be successful at the D-1 level, it's preposterous (to me) to think that recruiting offensive D with no basic defensive skills (skating backwards) is either a recipe for success, or a widespread philosophy.

There are a number of instances every year where D are converted to F, and F are asked to play D, so basic, strong skating skills must be getting attention from the recruiting staffs.

As regards the gap, and keeping it small, I think that speaks to the three zone game that is coached, and expected, at the D1, and, I would assume, D3 level. HOWEVER - if the D is going to keep the gap small, it is to slow the forward down, make them work to gain the zone, and give the back checking forwards time to get back. The conversations I hear about "improving three zone play" are generally about forwards who don't understand, or have never been expected, to take neutral or d zone responsibility.

At the college level, a defenseman who freelances to the point of leaving odd man rushes in the other direction as a habit, doesn't end up with a lot of minutes, but one who knows when to go and when to stay is relied upon.

As for cycling, we all know that puck posession is 9/10'ths of the law, or something like that. Same as faceoff wins - if you have it, the chances are better that it's not going to hurt you. Puck skills in small areas have been the focus of many drills and practices in the past decade+, and we've seen the results. The frustrating part for me, as a spectator, is when the players use the cycle to isolate the puck, create an odd man situation in the danger zone, but fail to capitalize. Maybe it's centrifical force and the water just can't break away from the bucket, but there is room in the game for the spill. Particularly on (our) the PK, there is nothing I like better than when the PP team is happy to skate circles or play catch on the perimeter, but when my team is there, I want to see the cycle, watch the weak side D or wing crash, and have the puck handlers know that it's time to let go. Sometimes that happens, and sometimes you see a good game of merry go round.

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

What a great discussion on this thread so far this year!

While I'm loath to critique individual players, I do enjoy analyzing D pairings, line chemistry, long versus short benches, and the like. (Probably a function of my age....somebody remarked of a similar analytic discussion of a different sport, "you all are so old that you've stopped identifying with the players who are actually playing the sport and you're primarily interested in what the coaches, managers and GMs do....")

Amyway, it's interesting to see how many minutes the third line, who started the season with nary a college goal among them, are getting and how productive they've been.

And it's worrysome to observe how many minutes the key D are playing -- has there been a single shift w/o either Edney or Gedman on the ice? Whereas the forwards are all getting involved, I don't think the entire D sixpack has played been fully utilized in any of the games so far.

As to line chemistry, it appears the 5 on 5 lines have been set in stone but on the PP they have experimented with at least three different right wings paired with Reber and Crowe. Any thoughts as to what combinations have worked best for the two PP lines?

 

[Watson Rink]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

What a great discussion on this thread so far this year!

While I'm loath to critique individual players, I do enjoy analyzing D pairings, line chemistry, long versus short benches, and the like. (Probably a function of my age....somebody remarked of a similar analytic discussion of a different sport, "you all are so old that you've stopped identifying with the players who are actually playing the sport and you're primarily interested in what the coaches, managers and GMs do....")

Amyway, it's interesting to see how many minutes the third line, who started the season with nary a college goal among them, are getting and how productive they've been.

And it's worrysome to observe how many minutes the key D are playing -- has there been a single shift w/o either Edney or Gedman on the ice? Whereas the forwards are all getting involved, I don't think the entire D sixpack has played been fully utilized in any of the games so far.

As to line chemistry, it appears the 5 on 5 lines have been set in stone but on the PP they have experimented with at least three different right wings paired with Reber and Crowe. Any thoughts as to what combinations have worked best for the two PP lines?

 

[COLD AS ICE]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

As I have noted in other threads, my experience does not line up with this. Some (some might even argue many/most) of the best defensive defenseman in the country are playing D3 because they didn't score and didn't get the recognition/recruiting that the high scoring defensemen got. The reason D1 coaches spend so much time coaching defense with young defenseman is that they generally aren't good defensively because they shined offensively and that is how they got recruited to D1 in the first place. At ANY D1 game, watch the defenseman skate backwards for a period. I guarantee that you will find that many (if not most) of the D play defense not by keeping the play in front of them while skating backward, but by turning to play defense skating forwards. This makes them vulnerable to both the cutback by a quick forward AND to being beaten wide by a faster forward (not to mention the lateral or backwards pass that they can't adjust to). You RARELY see a defenseman square up skating backwards and keep the play in front of them - it's just poor technique and it is rampant at the D1 level. Additionally, defensive zone coverage is often not adequate as well (but this can be taught/corrected more quickly).

Most of the D1 college coaches place a premium on their defenseman getting the puck efficiently out of their own end. The vast majority of goals in girls D1 hockey are scored off of turn overs. Teams that possess the puck, and efficiently get it out of their own end, tend to win most of their games. Defensemen need to be strong skaters to get to loose pucks, and then be efficient at either skating the puck out of their own zone, or making the outlet pass. With regards to the Harvard defensemen this past weekend, I would agree that Mastel and Gedman were targetted. They are not the strongest skaters, and were not executing the breakout. Countless outlet passes were blindly thrown up the boards and never made it to their intended target. The reason why Machmayer saw so many shots in the Princeton game was the failure of the defensemen to clear the puck after the first shot. Conversely, Edney is a breakout machine. She has all the tools. She skates well, sees the ice, and puts her passes right where they need to be. Her partner, the other freshman D #7, can flat out skate. She was gobbling up loose pucks, and covered an awful lot of ice- especially on the penalty kill.

Elizabeth Parker is out with a concussion. Until she comes back, you are likely to see almost exclusively the same 4 defensemen. Rearranging the defensive pairings, to make sure one of the stronger skaters is on the ice at all times, might make sense. You can not lose Picard and Pucci for the season without feeling it.

"Many/most of the best defensive defensemen in the country are playing D3". Really? You don't think the speed of the D1 game would unmask most D3 defensemen? All the D1 coaches scouting defensemen every year are getting it wrong?

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

"Many/most of the best defensive defensemen in the country are playing D3". Really? You don't think the speed of the D1 game would unmask most D3 defensemen? All the D1 coaches scouting defensemen every year are getting it wrong?

If you are going to quote me at least get the quote right: "Some (some might even argue many/most) of the best defensive defenseman in the country are playing D3 because they didn't score and didn't get the recognition/recruiting that the high scoring defensemen got." - I said some of the best defensive defenseman are playing D3. That is what I wrote and I'll stand by it. I'm not arguing that the average D3 defenseman could play D1 - I'm saying that there are very good D3 defensive defensemen who could play D1. I don't think that the D1 coaches get it wrong - they know who the best defensive defenseman are. They just choose to focus primarily on the defensemen who can put the puck in the net because they think they can teach them to play better defense OR they decide that their defensive shortcomings aren't bad enough to worry about.

As a great supporting example, Ashley Salerno transferred from Amherst to UVM this season after three years at Amherst where she never made first team NESCAC I believe (someone else would have to validate that). She was not a D1 recruit of significance despite having played at Assabet Valley and being one of their better defenseman (but not scoring much). By all accounts I have heard she is one of (if not the best of) UVM's defensemen and is always on the ice for penalty kills. Great defensive defenseman overlooked by D1 schools because she didn't score.

Your comments about the breakout are interesting and I think very on point. Having watched Rachlin for years I believe she is a great player - glad to hear that it appears she has recovered from her shoulder injury. Bummer about Elizabeth Parker. I have to ask - what is it with Harvard that they have what appears to be SO many more serious concussions than other teams? Are they more conservative in diagnosis and safety or is there something about their style of play or type of player that leads them to seemingly have a higher incidence of concussions?

 

[ARM]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I'm saying that there are very good D3 defensive defensemen who could play D1.

I don't think that you need to limit that by position. There are very good DIII players that could play DI.

As a great supporting example, Ashley Salerno transferred from Amherst to UVM this season after three years at Amherst where she never made first team NESCAC I believe (someone else would have to validate that). She was not a D1 recruit of significance despite having played at Assabet Valley and being one of their better defenseman (but not scoring much). By all accounts I have heard she is one of (if not the best of) UVM's defensemen and is always on the ice for penalty kills. Great defensive defenseman overlooked by D1 schools because she didn't score.

Most players will be better after playing three years of college hockey at any level than they were coming out of high school, and the fact that Salerno had previously played for her head coach makes her all the more valuable. So while I agree with what you posted, it doesn't necessarily validate your claim.

I have to ask - what is it with Harvard that they have what appears to be SO many more serious concussions than other teams?

Unfortunately, the concussion problem seems widespread. Some programs play concussions very close to the vest and are loathe to reveal the exact nature of the injury. But it seems any time I talk to a coach whose team is dealing with a rash of injuries, about half of them are concussions.

 

[UCONN FAN]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

LOL really........You are the jilted boyfriend (or girlfriend) who can't let it go. Casey Pickett same thing I'm sure. Learned all of her good play from St. Marks and nothing at Assabet..In your opinion what program here in Mass is teaching the (right) type of hockey?

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

I have to ask - what is it with Harvard that they have what appears to be SO many more serious concussions than other teams?

Not unique to Harvard, it so happens that there is more chatter on this board about Harvard.

I can think of at least two other Ivy teams that has had a lot of concussion injuries in recent years, to the point that they had trouble fielding a full line up game to game. For example, on our D's team, at one point a few years ago, they had 6 regulars out of the line-up as a result.

 

[Hux]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

Lizzy Parker got dinged pretty badly at the Polar Bears tourney her senior year, getting drilled, and I mean drilled, in the head from behind on a play at the blueline. (And she didn't even have the puck)

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

what program here in Mass is teaching the (right) type of hockey?

Harvard perhaps, or that team currently housed at Bedford ?

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Harvard Crimson 2013-2014

This is a must read.

http://espn.go.com/espnw/athletes-l...dream-shared-late-friend-teammate-liz-turgeon

As a parent who has lost a daughter, this bring back memories of our own and how her sisters coped with that ordeal in a similar fashion.