Gun Control 1: Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang

[state of hockey]

Oh ... the conversation four pages back ... hadn't gotten there yet.

Your sudden concern about accidental death due to gunfire is noted.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Your sudden concern about accidental death due to gunfire is noted.

I mean he would never take a moment to comment on his sides descent into authoritarianism. His crap like this is as predictable as the Fox News caravan stories every time we near an election

 

[Handyman]

Nothing about Alec Baldwin on the set of RUSH killing one and injuring another?

Folks keep calling this an "accidental discharge." He pointed and pulled the trigger. Not. An. Accident.

Reports say he was told it was a "cold" (unloaded) weapon. "Told" doesn't matter. Protocol is you ALWAYS clear a weapon handed to you on set. Always.

And why the < bleeeeeep > is a live round on any movie set? This retired armorer wonders exactly that.

And the on-set armorer hired by the producer? She seems ... um ... interesting.

Baldwin is a producer of the film and a lot of process and procedural things the producer is responsible for went horribly wrong. That adds culpability beyond pulling a trigger.

No it doesn't. It wasn't on him to know it was on the prop supervisor to check. (Amongst others) It was on the people dealing with the guns to know and secure it. It was on the person yelling "cold" to know it actually is cold.

Stop ripping off Right Wing Nut Job talking points. They aren't correct and neither are you. Doing even a small amount of research on how this works on movie setswould show you how stupid you and your ilk sound.

But since Baldwin hates your Golden Calf you just can't help yourself I guess...if only he was a cop you would be bending over backwards defending him.

 

[BassAle]

Reports say he was told it was a "cold" (unloaded) weapon. "Told" doesn't matter.

Sure it does. They hire experts to ensure the guns used in filming are safe. It's not the actors job, someone was being paid for their 'expertise' to make sure something like this didn't happen.

 

[aparch]

Sure it does. They hire experts to ensure the guns used in filming are safe. It's not the actors job, someone was being paid for their 'expertise' to make something like this didn't happen.

Thanks to TikTok, those in the movie industry were quick to point out the same points you're making, and shot down most points Sic made.

One, PropsToHistory, has repeatedly mentioned that it's the job of the on site Armorer (or a propmaster what that knowlege) to know which weapons are which and to handle and swap weapons out. He pointed out that most actors actually never have time to inspect the weapon and are just following what the on site crew has told them.

I believe he said in one video, it's routine for an actor to have a dummy gun for most of the scene, director yells cut, armorer swaps weapon with a live gun (w/blanks), resume filming of actor firing weapon, cut, swap back to the dummy weapon, and resume filming.

Because of scene, cast, and crew positioning, these tight cuts don't allow the actor time to check the weapon themselves. That's why there are the Armorers on site (or supposed to be).

There are very strict union rules about who can handle what on film sets, so those playing fast and loose could be I trouble.


Now, a couple points (and I believe Sic and others did point some out) that have been raised around how the production has handled the site arms during filming, with some staff quiting the movie over concerns how the firearms have been handled so far.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Is someone seriously arguing that Alec Baldwin is guilty of anything?

 

[Swansong]

Evolution of an echo chamber's message, following my dad and Sic:

• Event happened. Even my dad felt bad for Baldwin, as this was pretty obviously a horrific technical/production mistake. No criticism of his actions; only sympathy for the dead and everyone else and minor anger directed (appropriately) at the production staff.
• That isn't ok since Baldwin is a libtard.
• Right wing echo chamber decides to superimpose range and hunting rules on a movie set, where they absolutely do not belong (and, in fact, are mostly discarded by another set of more appropriate contextual rules).
• My dad hears this message and piles hate onto Baldwin.
• Sic reads the same garbage and does the same.

 

[Handyman]

Now, a couple points (and I believe Sic and others did point some out) that have been raised around how the production has handled the site arms during filming, with some staff quiting the movie over concerns how the firearms have been handled so far.

There is definitely some negligence that happened but it is not on Baldwin unless he was one of the ones shooting cans in the downtime.

I love all the Sic's of the world yelling "he should have better knowledge of his gun". These are the same pricks who defend parents whose kids shoot up schools with their guns.

 

[dxmnkd316]

The bringing of live rounds on to set is a big problem. I just can't fathom why someone thought that was ok.

 

[aparch]

Was it confirmed that it was a live round? (I haven't fully kept up with the story)

One thing I have heard is that blanks can sometimes have the casing break apart causing shrapnel to eject from the gun when fired.

 

[RaceBoarder]

The bringing of live rounds on to set is a big problem. I just can't fathom why someone thought that was ok.

That is what I'm trying to wrap my head around. Why aren't blanks used 100% of the time. Like what is the actual technical reason for this? I really can't think of a noticeable audio or visual reason here.

Was it confirmed that it was a live round? (I haven't fully kept up with the story)

One thing I have heard is that blanks can sometimes have the casing break apart causing shrapnel to eject from the gun when fired.

Yes. This is what happened on the set of THE CROW.

 

[dxmnkd316]

That is what I'm trying to wrap my head around. Why aren't blanks used 100% of the time. Like what is the actual technical reason for this? I really can't think of a noticeable audio or visual reason here.

Yes. This is what happened on the set of THE CROW.

1. Because they weren't using it for the film, they were using it to "plink" (shooting cans off fence posts) between scenes. You're 100% correct and live rounds should never be on set.
2. Not quite. In The Crow, dummy bullets (the reverse of blanks: real looking bullet, no charge) were loaded for one scene. One of the heads broke off in the gun. Cut. Change out the dummies for blanks so they would show the flash & bang. No one cleared the gun completely and when the blank went off, it was effectively a live round. Dummy head + blank = the missing pieces of both to make a live round.


*All of this was gleaned from the Dan Abrams guest he's had on a couple times now. The guy is one of the top armorers in hollywood, according to the show.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Is someone seriously arguing that Alec Baldwin is guilty of anything?

Just the local DA ... they're still considering charges.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/enter...day/index.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/m...c-baldwin.html '

Baldwin has a multi-layer problem: he didn't check/clear the weapon; he pulled a trigger; he's the film's producer so he has final culpability to ensure processes are followed and the set is safe.

And if the claims of the camera crew that walked off set days before this horror are true, big trouble is ahead.
https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-kn...ed-off-job-to-protest-safety-concerns-on-alec

Multiple reports indicated last week that the “Rust” film production had also seen two accidental weapon discharges before the Thursday incident. A stunt double for Baldwin had reportedly been told that a gun he was given was “cold,” meaning there was no live ammunition in it, before the two rounds were fired.

 

[The Sicatoka]

The bringing of live rounds on to set is a big problem. I just can't fathom why someone thought that was ok.

Absolutely unfathomable.

 

[Swansong]

Just the local DA ... they're still considering charges.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/26/enter...day/index.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/m...c-baldwin.html '

Baldwin has a multi-layer problem: he didn't check/clear the weapon; he pulled a trigger; he's the film's producer so he has final culpability to ensure processes are followed and the set is safe.

And if the claims of the camera crew that walked off set days before this horror are true, big trouble is ahead.
https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-kn...ed-off-job-to-protest-safety-concerns-on-alec

Nowhere in the CNN article did the DA say anything specific at all, let alone about Baldwin. "We haven't ruled out anything" is the only money quote, but sure. Use that as evidence that serious people are going to charge Baldwin, or that serious people hold him personally responsible.

 

[LynahFan]

Guess Baldwin should have paid more attention during that Gun Safety and Marksmanship 101 class at NYU film school. Oh, wait - that’s not a real class? Maybe because that’s not the actors’ fucking job. What next, we hold the actors accountable for doing their own stress analysis on the safety harnesses? Checking the brakes on the stunt cars? Ensuring that catering doesn’t leave the tuna salad out in the sun?

If Baldwin has any culpability here, it would just be negligence as the producer for hiring the wrong armorer. No more culpability than if a different on-set actor had pulled the trigger, in which case that actor would have zero culpability.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Guess Baldwin should have paid more attention during that Gun Safety and Marksmanship 101 class at NYU film school. Oh, wait - that’s not a real class? Maybe because that’s not the actors’ fucking job. What next, we hold the actors accountable for doing their own stress analysis on the safety harnesses? Checking the brakes on the stunt cars? Ensuring that catering doesn’t leave the tuna salad out in the sun?

If Baldwin has any culpability here, it would just be negligence as the producer for hiring the wrong armorer. No more culpability than if a different on-set actor had pulled the trigger, in which case that actor would have zero culpability.

Yes. From what we hear everything was done wrong. The Armorer and the actor are the only ones to touch the guns, yet an assistant director if I heard correctly handed Baldwin the gun in this case. And there is a whole slew of other things.

Probably be a big civil case against the producers. Not sure if they're criminally liable but they could be.

 

[BassAle]

Guess Baldwin should have paid more attention during that Gun Safety and Marksmanship 101 class at NYU film school. Oh, wait - that’s not a real class? Maybe because that’s not the actors’ fucking job. What next, we hold the actors accountable for doing their own stress analysis on the safety harnesses? Checking the brakes on the stunt cars? Ensuring that catering doesn’t leave the tuna salad out in the sun?

If Baldwin has any culpability here, it would just be negligence as the producer for hiring the wrong armorer. No more culpability than if a different on-set actor had pulled the trigger, in which case that actor would have zero culpability.

aren't some producers just producer in name only, because they either helped secure financing or are an actor that is being given a financial stake in the film? Films have dozens of producers, some of whom are making hiring decisions and making sure things get done, others are just writing or collecting checks. Which one is Baldwin?

 

[BassAle]

Yes. This is what happened on the set of THE CROW.

On The Crow, the crew made their own "dummy rounds" by removing gunpowder from off-the-shelf ammo. So called "dummy rounds" are used for close up shots, for example where an actor is loading a weapon, since they look real. The blanks have crimped ends, and are obviously missing the projectile, so they can't be used for these shots.

Because they modified off-the-shelf ammo by removing the gunpowder, the dummy rounds still had their primer. Someone pulled the trigger with one in the gun, and the primer had enough force to push the bullet out of the shell and into the barrel of the gun. Then blanks were loaded into the same gun. When the blank was fired, the bullet that was in the barrel was shot out of the gun.

 

[RaceBoarder]

On The Crow, the crew made their own "dummy rounds" by removing gunpowder from off-the-shelf ammo. So called "dummy rounds" are used for close up shots, for example where an actor is loading a weapon, since they look real. The blanks have crimped ends, and are obviously missing the projectile, so they can't be used for these shots.

Because they modified off-the-shelf ammo by removing the gunpowder, the dummy rounds still had their primer. Someone pulled the trigger with one in the gun, and the primer had enough force to push the bullet out of the shell and into the barrel of the gun. Then blanks were loaded into the same gun. When the blank was fired, the bullet that was in the barrel was shot out of the gun.

Yea, I realized I was misremembering what I had read about the situation. I knew a blank was fired and caused Brandon Lee's death. I just didn't remember that the projectile was a squib round from a previous shot instead of a fragment from the blank round. My mistake.