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Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

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Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

Rover said:
Police aren't arresting people for zoning violations. Its not a legal brothel. Its a pimp having a girl renting a place and setting shop. That equals a fine, which pimp makes girl pay. Then they move one street over and keep going. No criminal penalties = little incentive to go out of business.
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That depends upon how you setup a law, doesn't it? If we were to make prostitution legal, so long as it's kept in accordance with the restrictions and structures we set - location of brothel, licensing of prostitutes, licensing of madams and brothel owners, and so on, then both the pimp and prostitute could be charged with crimes if they're operating outside the law's proscribed limits. We could even have social welfare look into the soiled dove to make sure she's not a sex slave, or that she's being abused, due to the nature of the relationship.

You're looking for loopholes in a bill hasn't been written. Concerns like these would be brought up and addressed during the proposal process in any responsible state. Learn from the citizens' concerns and mistakes made by others.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

So how does it work in reality? In a state that's had decades to get it right? From wiki on legal prostitution in Nevada:

Teri, a prostitute who has worked in a Nevada brothel (and who would like prostitution to be decriminalized), stated that "The brothel owners are worse than any pimp. They abuse and imprison women and are fully protected by the state".

In an article published in the Guardian in 2007, Julie Bindel wrote: "If you believe their PR, Nevada's legal brothels are safe, healthy – even fun – places in which to work. So why do so many prostitutes tell such horrific tales of abuse?"[44]

In her 2007 report, Prostitution and trafficking in Nevada: making the connections, Melissa Farley presents the results of numerous interviews with brothel owners and prostitutes, she says that most brothel prostitutes are controlled by outside pimps and that they suffer widespread abuse by brothel owners and customers.[45][46] Farley said that "What happens in legal brothels is sexual harassment, sexual exploitation and sometimes rape";[47] she also said more than 80% of the women she had interviewed told her they wanted to leave prostitution.[48]

Alexa Albert, a Harvard medical student who has conducted a public-health study inside one of Nevada's brothels, and authored Brothel: Mustang Ranch and Its Women,[49] wrote in her book that the brothel owners used to require the prostitutes to have outside pimps, because the pimps were thought to make the women work harder: "The involvement of pimps enabled brothel owners to leave discipline to men who wouldn't hesitate to keep their women in line."[50]

Bob Herbert also stated that many brothel prostitutes are controlled by outside pimps: "Despite the fiction that they are “independent contractors,” most so-called legal prostitutes have pimps — the state-sanctioned pimps who run the brothels and, in many cases, a second pimp who controls all other aspects of their lives (and takes the bulk of their legal earnings)."[51]

Detective Greg Harvey, from Eugene, Oregon, said such cases were in reality very common; he said, "It's happening right now, it's amazing how many girls are shipped from here to different brothels in northern and southern Nevada. Many are underage." Another detective, Sgt. Pete Kerns, supported Harvey's claims: "Never buy the line that nobody under 18 works in (Nevada brothels)," he said. "It's happening."[53]

Former Nye County Commissioner Candice Trummell, director of the Nevada Coalition Against Sex Trafficking, said "It is way past time for Nevada to be the last state in the United States of America to finally stand against all forms of slavery."[54]
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

St. Clown said:
That depends upon how you setup a law, doesn't it? If we were to make prostitution legal, so long as it's kept in accordance with the restrictions and structures we set - location of brothel, licensing of prostitutes, licensing of madams and brothel owners, and so on, then both the pimp and prostitute could be charged with crimes if they're operating outside the law's proscribed limits. We could even have social welfare look into the soiled dove to make sure she's not a sex slave, or that she's being abused, due to the nature of the relationship.

You're looking for loopholes in a bill hasn't been written. Concerns like these would be brought up and addressed during the proposal process in any responsible state. Learn from the citizens' concerns and mistakes made by others.
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This is what interests me about the line of thinking. It assumes everybody will play by the new rules that you've put in place, even though they've disregarded the old rules. That's where we part. You're speaking of a professional brothel operation. Joecct mentioned this too. I'm assuming along the line of the Nevada model.

The problem is there is little chance this will actually happen. Most places will not legalize a brothel. Particularly in urban/suburban areas. So, if you legalize prostitution, the business model you envision won't happen unless you're willing to override local concerns and say by law you can't stop a brothel from opening.

So what you're left with is people setting up their own businesses, sorta what we have now, but with no criminal penalties to shut them down. Zoning ordinance violations rarely result in jail time. Its usually a civil infraction (aka a fine). It all sounds good in fantasyland, but in reality it doesn't have any practical application in the real world outside of a place like Vegas which isn't easy to replicate.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

Rover said:
This is what interests me about the line of thinking. It assumes everybody will play by the new rules that you've put in place, even though they've disregarded the old rules. That's where we part. You're speaking of a professional brothel operation. Joecct mentioned this too. I'm assuming along the line of the Nevada model.

The problem is there is little chance this will actually happen. Most places will not legalize a brothel. Particularly in urban/suburban areas. So, if you legalize prostitution, the business model you envision won't happen unless you're willing to override local concerns and say by law you can't stop a brothel from opening.

So what you're left with is people setting up their own businesses, sorta what we have now, but with no criminal penalties to shut them down. Zoning ordinance violations rarely result in jail time. Its usually a civil infraction (aka a fine). It all sounds good in fantasyland, but in reality it doesn't have any practical application in the real world outside of a place like Vegas which isn't easy to replicate.
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Uber plus AirBnB plus the sex trade? a phone app plus private security firm hired by the woman herself replaces the pimp? and the action is filmed so that it can provide a second source of income when sold as pornography?
 
Rover said:
This is what interests me about the line of thinking. It assumes everybody will play by the new rules that you've put in place, even though they've disregarded the old rules. That's where we part. You're speaking of a professional brothel operation. Joecct mentioned this too. I'm assuming along the line of the Nevada model.

The problem is there is little chance this will actually happen. Most places will not legalize a brothel. Particularly in urban/suburban areas. So, if you legalize prostitution, the business model you envision won't happen unless you're willing to override local concerns and say by law you can't stop a brothel from opening.

So what you're left with is people setting up their own businesses, sorta what we have now, but with no criminal penalties to shut them down. Zoning ordinance violations rarely result in jail time. Its usually a civil infraction (aka a fine). It all sounds good in fantasyland, but in reality it doesn't have any practical application in the real world outside of a place like Vegas which isn't easy to replicate.
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There would still be criminal penalties, they'd just be for things like operating without a license, failure to remit sales taxes, etc. Anything you could think of for a bootleg bar or nightclub would likely apply to this sort of business.

Most places don't allow strip clubs in residential areas, either, yet I don't see underground versions of those popping up everywhere, either. So your theory that the underground market would remain viable is really undermined by real life examples.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

unofan said:
There would still be criminal penalties, they'd just be for things like operating without a license, failure to remit sales taxes, etc. Anything you could think of for a bootleg bar or nightclub would likely apply to this sort of business.

Most places don't allow strip clubs in residential areas, either, yet I don't see underground versions of those popping up everywhere, either. So your theory that the underground market would remain viable is really undermined by real life examples.
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Apples to oranges. One person operating a sex business is not the same as running a bar. There's no comparison as you only need service one customer at a time with no overhead costs. While you could run a speakeasy out of your house, I'm assuming you need a multitude of customers to make money, or you need one person to pay 100 bucks a drink. Otherwise you're not covering the cost of purchasing the alcohol, taps, refridgeration, etc.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

unofan said:
Because when I think of reputable sites, I think of ones that immediately popup ads for buying gold with articles posted by a character from an overrated movie...
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Aren't those targeted ads based on a history of your web browsing?
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

joecct said:
Aren't those targeted ads based on a history of your web browsing?
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That depends upon the site and the ad buyer. Some sites have certain types of users, and so companies will forego the Google Ads route and make direct content purchases with the company's site instead. So someone who visits a site about those preparing for End of Times or huge economic collapses will deal directly with that site to sell gold certificates and freeze dried goods, and MREs. Visiting a site like Playboy might net you ads to 30 or 40 different porn sites or a mixture of directly purchased ad space and Google ads that will vary by user.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

joecct said:
Aren't those targeted ads based on a history of your web browsing?
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Even if that were the case in this instance, I'm guessing visiting a website called zerohedge.com might have something to do with that...
 
Rover said:
Apples to oranges. One person operating a sex business is not the same as running a bar. There's no comparison as you only need service one customer at a time with no overhead costs. While you could run a speakeasy out of your house, I'm assuming you need a multitude of customers to make money, or you need one person to pay 100 bucks a drink. Otherwise you're not covering the cost of purchasing the alcohol, taps, refridgeration, etc.
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And no one would notice the steady stream of strange men going to an unlicensed one women show? Maybe it's just my neighborhood, but we have busybodies complaining about every little thing. A steady stream of strange cars would be easily noticed.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

unofun said:
Because when I think of reputable sites, I think of ones that immediately popup ads for buying gold with articles posted by a character from an overrated movie...
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thanks for the reminder, I had forgotten that the validity of a statement has nothing to do with the actual content and depends solely on who said it.... :rolleyes:
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

unofan said:
And no one would notice the steady stream of strange men going to an unlicensed one women show? Maybe it's just my neighborhood, but we have busybodies complaining about every little thing. A steady stream of strange cars would be easily noticed.
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For a time I grew up with a low level dealer next door in a rural setting. He plied his "trade" in a low key manner for a long time before finally getting busted. You have to catch people in the act and have probable cause. A steady stream of traffic isn't reason to bust down the door, especially with a prostitute unless you record a transaction taking place.
 
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