What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

People, please. Lets all try to love each other a little bit more. Peace and love and all that sh !t, 'kay? :eek: ;)

"I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that." -- Tom Lehrer
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

"I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that." -- Tom Lehrer

Wasn't his next song in that act about Von Braun? ;)
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

BTW, this is hilarious. You have been regurgitating Christian apologetics in the guise of history, and your assertions have no basis in empirical fact. IIRC you were also the guy with the piffle about the crusades. MSU appears to have outsourced its history program to Liberty for the time you were there.

Please read some books.

The world's most scrutinized account summary of 'history of healthcare' says that Christian monasteries were the source for medieval health care and directly led to the development of the modern hospital.

A more solid fact basis please?
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

The world's most scrutinized account summary of 'history of healthcare' says that Christian monasteries were the source for medieval health care and directly led to the development of the modern hospital.

A more solid fact basis please?

That in itself is fine, but we are talking at cross purposes. Your contention was Jesus --> Hospitals. My contention was that is simplistic, for the following reasons:

1) Other cultures also developed medical care independently of Christianity

2) Western culture adopted much Arab and pagan knowledge in developing its own medical science

3) Monasteries enjoyed a virtual monopoly on knowledge production and preservation during a lengthy period in western history, and although under the auspices of religious authorities were no more "religious as distinct from secular" than, say, American universities with a religious affiliation in the 19th century.

The ideal of universal brotherhood that has become associated with Christianity over time is A Good Thing. I do not understand why followers of this particular religion feel the need to argue (falsely) for an exclusive monopoly over all the Good Things mankind has accomplished, other than the parochialism of "yay team" that monotheism tends to lead to.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

That in itself is fine, but we are talking at cross purposes. Your contention was Jesus --> Hospitals. My contention was that is simplistic, for the following reasons:

1) Other cultures also developed medical care independently of Christianity

2) Western culture adopted much Arab and pagan knowledge in developing its own medical science

3) Monasteries enjoyed a virtual monopoly on knowledge production and preservation during a lengthy period in western history, and although under the auspices of religious authorities were no more "religious as distinct from secular" than, say, American universities with a religious affiliation in the 19th century.

The ideal of universal brotherhood that has become associated with Christianity over time is A Good Thing. I do not understand why followers of this particular religion feel the need to argue (falsely) for an exclusive monopoly over all the Good Things mankind has accomplished, other than the parochialism of "yay team" that monotheism tends to lead to.

The study of six thousand years worth of human oppression and control should give you the answer to your lack of understanding.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

That in itself is fine, but we are talking at cross purposes. Your contention was Jesus --> Hospitals. My contention was that is simplistic, for the following reasons:

1) Other cultures also developed medical care independently of Christianity

2) Western culture adopted much Arab and pagan knowledge in developing its own medical science

Arab/Pagan knowledge was a starting point (all ideas have some foundation)...that by no means discredits the developments and progress of Christian led efforts.

Other cultures may have developed medical care, but those efforts were much more relatively narrow in scope and poor in effectiveness. Christian led care effectiveness/pervasiveness overwhelmed that of other cultures and nothing of the latter remains today. And so your point makes my case that without Christian monasteries per wiki, there's a significant likelihood of being decades behind where we are today. Which in medicine would mean countless lives.

3) Monasteries enjoyed a virtual monopoly on knowledge production and preservation during a lengthy period in western history, and although under the auspices of religious authorities were no more "religious as distinct from secular" than, say, American universities with a religious affiliation in the 19th century.

The ideal of universal brotherhood that has become associated with Christianity over time is A Good Thing. I do not understand why followers of this particular religion feel the need to argue (falsely) for an exclusive monopoly over all the Good Things mankind has accomplished, other than the parochialism of "yay team" that monotheism tends to lead to.

Medieval kings did not forbid the creation of similar secular institutions. Persons with the money/influence to create such secular institutions didn't have the same motivations as Christians. Why? Because monasteries were Christian...driven by the Word of Jesus. And the Word installed a value system that elevated the importance of healthcare, etc. Its all rather simple.

As I've stated here many times, Christianity has been involved in some negative outcomes. But it should be kept in mind that those typically had nothing to do with the message of Christianity...and therefore were driven by bad actors misunderstanding or misusing a great motivator of human behavior. Even if you do associate Christianity with the bad reasonably associated with it...the healthcare example is just the tip of the iceberg in showing how the massive amount of good has swamped the bad.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

As I've stated here many times, Christianity has been involved in some negative outcomes. But it should be kept in mind that those typically had nothing to do with the message of Christianity...and therefore were driven by bad actors misunderstanding or misusing a great motivator of human behavior. Even if you do associate Christianity with the bad reasonably associated with it...the healthcare example is just the tip of the iceberg in showing how the massive amount of good has swamped the bad.

Bingo. As I've always said, Romans took Christianity and screwed it up for their own political gain, so we have what we have today. This is why the letters from St. Paul (most of the New Testament, usually the second reading at your traditional service) are the way they are. Only if we can learn from the mistakes made there can we hope to advance our society for the better.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

As I've stated here many times, Christianity has been involved in some negative outcomes. But it should be kept in mind that those typically had nothing to do with the message of Christianity...and therefore were driven by bad actors misunderstanding or misusing a great motivator of human behavior. Even if you do associate Christianity with the bad reasonably associated with it...the healthcare example is just the tip of the iceberg in showing how the massive amount of good has swamped the bad.

Ignoring the "No true Scotsman" portion of this argument, what I took exception to was your blithe equivalence of progress with Christianity. Christianity, as a complex human creation, has often been on the good guys' side and often on the bad guys' side. Weighing them relatively would mean assigning weights to the value of those who were hurt as distinct from those who were helped. A believer is obviously incentified to minimize the damage while exaggerating the good since his identity is linked to his faith. In the end, your statements aren't history, they're autobiography.

Apologetics is fine for rallying the troops -- just don't be surprised when it falls flat in the wider community.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

A bit of a moving target...but I'll try to address this.

Ignoring the "No true Scotsman" portion of this argument, what I took exception to was your blithe equivalence of progress with Christianity.

Christianity is not progress. Many inventors and those advancing strictly scientific progress have been Christians (its easy to find lists of hundreds of famous scientists) including one Johann Kepler. But I give little credit to any strictly scientific progress to Christianity. Any significant message needs to choose its target wisely, and Jesus' of morality and the human condition was broad enough.

Societal innovation including healthcare is an entirely different matter. The number of Christians involved and their roles are very compelling. The big difference here is motivation. It doesn't take much study to see how the individuals were inspired by the J message.

Christianity, as a complex human creation, has often been on the good guys' side and often on the bad guys' side. Weighing them relatively would mean assigning weights to the value of those who were hurt as distinct from those who were helped. A believer is obviously incentified to minimize the damage while exaggerating the good since his identity is linked to his faith. In the end, your statements aren't history, they're autobiography.

Apologetics is fine for rallying the troops -- just don't be surprised when it falls flat in the wider community.

Christianity makes no judgments and is not on any side. It is used by individuals in two ways 1) as a personal motivator 2) as a tool to 'get things done'. Problems have occurred when its been used to 'get things done'. Nationalism is has also been frequently co opted. The power of Christian thought has been in people using it as a personal motivator. Its changed society.

In the end, I have little doubt that the ultimate impacts of the Crusades and a handful of bad Popes (none of which align with what Jesus taught) would be swamped by Christian led efforts to drive innovation in healthcare, slavery, child labor, sufferage, welfare and more. I'd take that challenge any day (and twice on Sundays).

Will it fall flat? Most aren't interested in such matters. But those who are just don't get the full story. Did you know coming in to the discussion that Christian monasteries were the source for medieval health care and directly led to the development of the modern hospital? Vocal special interests with bias have carried the conversation...because we all know just how critical outcomes of the Crusades are in our daily lives.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

Do I need to go reverse Jesus on your asses and toss the religious arguments out of the <strike>temple</strike> banking thread?

There's a thread for this debate ;)
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

In the end, I have little doubt that the ultimate impacts of the Crusades and a handful of bad Popes (none of which align with what Jesus taught) would be swamped by Christian led efforts to drive innovation in healthcare, slavery, child labor, sufferage, welfare and more. I'd take that challenge any day (and twice on Sundays).

The problem, of course, is that Christianity was enlisted on the wrong side of all those battles as much as on the right side, hence it wasn't Christianity at all that made the difference -- like an integer added on both sides of an equation, it cancels out. You're giving a Whiggish history where because Christianity today universally backs all those reforms, that must mean Christianity in the past must have too. However, that''s just not true -- look, for example at the Christian arguments for slavery.

In 500 years 5mn_Major from Rigel 4 will be arguing that Christianity gets credit for the end of homophobia because of its insistence on people being equal in the sight of God. He won't be right, either.
 
Last edited:
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

Do I need to go reverse Jesus on your asses and toss the religious arguments out of the <strike>temple</strike> banking thread?

There's a thread for this debate ;)

Have some rec for an excellent and clever point! :)

Tosca out.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

The problem, of course...

To take a look at your faulty logic...let's take a group or an individual. Say Kepler becomes famous based on a position that researching a cure is a waste of societal resources...but then decades later he singlehandedly creates a worldwide benefit by developing the cure for cancer using stem cells. Which of these two should he be remembered for?

To be consistent, your logic would have...

The problem, of course. is that Christianity was enlisted on the wrong side of all those battles as much as on the right side, hence it wasn't Christianity at all that made the difference -- like an integer added on both sides of an equation, it cancels out.

...that because at some point Kepler took a position against cancer cures he really shouldn't get any credit for his own cancer cure and...

That in itself is fine, but we are talking at cross purposes. Your contention was Jesus --> Hospitals. My contention was that is simplistic, for the following reasons: 1) Other cultures also developed medical care independently of Christianity 2) Western culture adopted much Arab and pagan knowledge in developing its own medical science.

...regardless, he shouldn't get credit because somebody else was bound to invent it at some point.

Your logic fails because a position does not equal an ongoing societal benefit (i.e., creation of the hospital we use today)...10 - 1 does not equal zero.

In 500 years 5mn_Major from Rigel 4 will be arguing that Christianity gets credit for the end of homophobia because of its insistence on people being equal in the sight of God. He won't be right, either.

Where is the Christian based bias? You alone have disparaged Christians more than the Christians on the board here have disparaged anyone/anything combined.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

Hmmmmmmmm........
“Together, we can end Wall Street bailouts,” House Financial Services Committee Chairman Jeb Hensarling (R-TX) says in this week’s Republican address, which marks the fifth anniversary of the Dodd-Frank law that has hurt our economy and made it harder to create jobs.

Here are some key quotes from the address, which you can watch now:

"You may not have heard of Dodd-Frank, but it’s essentially Obamacare for our economy and your household finances. And just like Obamacare, Dodd-Frank has left us with fewer choices, higher costs and less freedom."

“When President Obama signed Dodd-Frank into law five years ago with much fanfare and celebration, we were told it would ‘lift the economy,’ ‘end too big to fail’ and ‘increase financial stability.’ It didn’t happen.”

“Dodd-Frank did nothing to reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which were at the epicenter of the crisis. It enshrined taxpayer-funded bailouts and ‘too big to fail’ into law, and it imposed 400 new burdensome, job-destroying regulations upon our economy.”

“Services that we all once took for granted – like free checking – are being curtailed or eliminated because of Dodd-Frank. Before, 75 percent of banks offered free checking. Just two years after Dodd-Frank became law, that number was cut almost in half.”
”If we want strong economic growth, more freedom and an end to bailouts, it’s time we commit to making sure this anniversary is Dodd-Frank’s last anniversary. House Republicans are working to do just that. Together, we can end Wall Street bailouts, have a healthier economy, and protect consumer choice.”
In its report on the address, The Hill notes that “Hensarling has pushed for a series of hearings in an effort to make the case that the law should be revisited, casting it as a threat to the economy.

Watch the address now, and learn more about our efforts to address the people’s priorities.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

Hmmmmmmmm........

Yeah, no. I'd check his campaign donations ot see how much wall street has given that guy, because it reads exactly like the corporate spiels I used to hear when I worked for a bank for a year and a half.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

To take a look at your faulty logic...

All I see in your responses is more evasion and failure to address the core point. What we have here is apologetics, not discussion, and that's just not a wall worth banging one's head against. Whatever the source of the advances in human history, faith, reason, both, or neither, hopefully we'll have more of it in the future. In the end if you're a good person, and you believe you're a good person because you're wearing lace panties, by all means, wear the lace panties.
 
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0

Do I need to go reverse Jesus on your asses and toss the religious arguments out of the <strike>temple</strike> banking thread?

There's a thread for this debate ;)

Throw in a comment about the collection plate, and then it's relevant. :p:D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top