I'd be happier with a single source that did an honest comparison instead of dozens of cherry-picked charts. If you live in an urban apartment or townhouse (as at least 50 percent of us do), then your cost of solar has to include the cost of the real estate (somewhere else) to put "your" panels on. The charts you showed all assume you already have real estate and just need to install the system, or they're just looking at the price of one of the components (the actual cells). Neither comes close to capturing the true macroeconomic cost of solar.
USCHO Fan Forum
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.
Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
- Thread starter dxmnkd316
- Start date
- Status
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
Any idea what the industrial v residential breakdown of energy consumption is for the US? Are they roughly equal, at least to the same power of ten, or does one dwarf the other?
If we're industrial-dominant, then the capital cost of those panels is probably minimal. (If residential, we're fcked.)
Stepping back a bit, is it possible to create solar collection on a huge aggregate scale (like coal and oil power generation stations)? Can we, I dunno, rope off Nevada (no great loss) and sling panels across the whole goddmn state, and power the entire grid off that? (i.e., use turbines under Niagara Falls rather than a million local waterwheels?)
Any idea what the industrial v residential breakdown of energy consumption is for the US? Are they roughly equal, at least to the same power of ten, or does one dwarf the other?
If we're industrial-dominant, then the capital cost of those panels is probably minimal. (If residential, we're fcked.)
Stepping back a bit, is it possible to create solar collection on a huge aggregate scale (like coal and oil power generation stations)? Can we, I dunno, rope off Nevada (no great loss) and sling panels across the whole goddmn state, and power the entire grid off that? (i.e., use turbines under Niagara Falls rather than a million local waterwheels?)
Last edited:
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
The viability of solar and wind still come down to one word: storage. When the battery technology gets to where it needs to be, give me a call.
Until then, the baseline load of the the system (the US power grid) needs to be maintained and like it or not, for now that's coal.
The viability of solar and wind still come down to one word: storage. When the battery technology gets to where it needs to be, give me a call.
Until then, the baseline load of the the system (the US power grid) needs to be maintained and like it or not, for now that's coal.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
Nah, what solar would help with is the line losses that eat up something like a quarter of all of our electricity produced. If you can get an array in each southern neighborhood that would help. Especially since the heat down there doesn't help with power line sagging.
Nah, what solar would help with is the line losses that eat up something like a quarter of all of our electricity produced. If you can get an array in each southern neighborhood that would help. Especially since the heat down there doesn't help with power line sagging.
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
Not the exact answer to your question, but relevant.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=447&t=1
Not the exact answer to your question, but relevant.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=447&t=1
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
Wow, losses account for a greater amount of energy than all of transportation. Imagine that -- fix that issue and we get "free" transport.
Wow, losses account for a greater amount of energy than all of transportation. Imagine that -- fix that issue and we get "free" transport.
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
Honestly, in the winter you commonly see a late Friday tail-off. I see it as the houses taking profits and protection (defensive positions) for the weekend.
In the summer, you see it on Thursdays (because the traders are getting a jump on the three-day weekend in the Hamptons).
Honestly, in the winter you commonly see a late Friday tail-off. I see it as the houses taking profits and protection (defensive positions) for the weekend.
In the summer, you see it on Thursdays (because the traders are getting a jump on the three-day weekend in the Hamptons).
The Sicatoka
Kicizapi Cetan
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
You can change the laws of physics?
I squared R losses are something that you can't get around, and power lines are R (resistors).
You can change the laws of physics?
I squared R losses are something that you can't get around, and power lines are R (resistors).
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfZ12UGiisM
You can change the laws of physics?
V = I * R ... and those power lines are resistors (losses).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfZ12UGiisM
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
Nope; only two places I looked at were RPI and CCT.
Nope; only two places I looked at were RPI and CCT.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
They have the ability to break this down by county. I'd certainly love to see how much of the residential is rural and how much is urban. As mentioned before with the flat argument (no pun intended), solar panels only work really effectively in rural areas. A few panels aren't necessarily going to be able to power a high-rise. Line loss is certainly a concern; consider how much is wasted taking power from Massena to Plattsburgh.
They have the ability to break this down by county. I'd certainly love to see how much of the residential is rural and how much is urban. As mentioned before with the flat argument (no pun intended), solar panels only work really effectively in rural areas. A few panels aren't necessarily going to be able to power a high-rise. Line loss is certainly a concern; consider how much is wasted taking power from Massena to Plattsburgh.
And you picked the wrong one.
After all, given a 50/50 chance, 9 times out of 10 you'll be wrong.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
Local generation
You can change the laws of physics?
I squared R losses are something that you can't get around, and power lines are R (resistors).
Local generation
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
From this other EIA page for the US only, industrial and commercial is about 2:1 more than residential. That's probably not good news, though. Industrial plants and businesses tend to be far more energy intensive (as in, more KW consumed per acre of land). So for every current acre of residential housing, we might need 2 acres of solar cells, but for every acre of lumbermill, we'll need 100 acres of solar cells. I agree that the captial cost of the panels are relatively cheap for businesses - but the cost of the land is not, *especially* if we were really to go full-on solar. Question for the class: with all that extra demand for real estate, would the price go up or down...?
Yes, you can, but only if you bury 3 environmentalists under each pile you drive when installing the panels. And, you won't have done anything about transmission losses or the storage problem for night time. I know I did this calculation in an old thread, but don't feel like digging it out. I think that with 100% efficient solar cells (pipe dream #1) and Arizona-intense sunshine 12 hours per day (pipe dream #2) and 100% efficient electrical storage to cover the other 12 hours (pipe dream #3), it would take something like the area of South Carolina just to replace our *electricity* usage, to say nothing of cracking the transportation problem. Start to add some realism to that calculation, and Nevada is probably not terrible guess....
That's the one I always rely on, too - lots of great pages and datasets. Your tax dollars at work!
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
Excellent take!
And I appreciate having smart people explain this.
Excellent take!
And I appreciate having smart people explain this.
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
Does anyone add up the cost of oil well real estate, infrastructure, pipelines, shipping, storage, refining, etc. in a comparable way to solar cell area? I'm starting to see how complicated this comparison could get, cost-wise.
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
I wouldn't take Lynah's word on this stuff. There's a built in bias there. The adoption of solar has doubled since he/she said real estate costs would mean it goes nowhere a couple of years back. There's no question solar is on a skyward trajectory. Again, pick your source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics
Its the pace of vehicular technology that I'm more concerned about.
I wouldn't take Lynah's word on this stuff. There's a built in bias there. The adoption of solar has doubled since he/she said real estate costs would mean it goes nowhere a couple of years back. There's no question solar is on a skyward trajectory. Again, pick your source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics
Its the pace of vehicular technology that I'm more concerned about.
walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
solar is a gnat on an elephants *** in terms of our total generation. I use solar to heat DHW I also built a colector into the south wall of my shop, it keeps the building in the 40s and 50s all winter long without any other heat. But that building is extremely tight and far exceeds BOCA codes for insulation. I did it myself so it pays but I couldn't justify it otherwise.
I've had a 9.6 kilowatt system quoted, the prices are down but still not enough to make me jump on it. Maybe if Tesla wall pack is doable I might combine it but I doubt the numbers work
Re: Frayed Ends: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 3.0
2x nowhere is still nowhere. If solar is so great, why is Europe's adoption clearly flattening out in that curve shown on Wiki? Early adopters put subsidies in place, pick their low hanging fruit, remove the subsidies, and then it stalls. The growth is driven by new adopters in new countries/regions. When there aren't any more of those, we'll flatten out at a few percent of our total electricity from solar (about 1% worldwide now), nothing more. Solar capacity will keep growing forever, of course - but so will demand.
- Status