bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
I think this says it all:
I stand by my original statement:
Epic Fail
I think this says it all:
I stand by my original statement:
Epic Fail
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Ford Field Rink Installation
- Thread starter STATEdude3
- Start date
hockeytown100
New member
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Anyone know what the deal with this ice was? What were those horizontal, straight lines across the whole sheet? Were those pipes underneath or what?
Anyone know what the deal with this ice was? What were those horizontal, straight lines across the whole sheet? Were those pipes underneath or what?
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Yes...apparently the freon pipes run like that and for whatever reason it was very obvious probably because the painted layer of white ice was not as thick as it should have been or because of the indoor setup and probably extra lighting compared to Fenway, it was WAY more obvious.
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
might as well spend that $1000 on a nice big HD tv then huh?
might as well spend that $1000 on a nice big HD tv then huh?
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Presentation matters. Presentation on TV matters a lot. And this doesn't look particularly good, because the seats that get the most TV exposure are horrible and empty.
Remember that in permanent arenas, the brinewater pipes are embedded in the concrete arena floor. I don't think the paint is the real issue, it's more that the temporary mat of pipes isn't completely level, so when the ice forms on top of it, you get some pressure ridges that get different color ice. You see this with lake ice all the time.
Presentation matters. Presentation on TV matters a lot. And this doesn't look particularly good, because the seats that get the most TV exposure are horrible and empty.
Remember that in permanent arenas, the brinewater pipes are embedded in the concrete arena floor. I don't think the paint is the real issue, it's more that the temporary mat of pipes isn't completely level, so when the ice forms on top of it, you get some pressure ridges that get different color ice. You see this with lake ice all the time.
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
It doesn't matter where they hold it, people will find reasons to complain. Anaheim, Denver, even St Louis were too far away. Some places had not enough tickets available and the ones that are, were waaaaaay too expensive. Columbus didn't have a ton of hotels and bars immediately surrounding the Schottenstein Center. Some places it tough or very expensive to get a cab or to venture around the city. Now you have a venue that is centrally located, easily accessed by planes, trains and automobiles, tons of hotel rooms and bars and restaurants and casinos within a short walk or 50 cent people mover ride of the venue and anyone who wants a ticket can get a ticket at a very reasonable price. But alas, the risers suck. That point I cannot argue. It's the honest truth. But overall, it's not too bad, all things considered.
It doesn't matter where they hold it, people will find reasons to complain. Anaheim, Denver, even St Louis were too far away. Some places had not enough tickets available and the ones that are, were waaaaaay too expensive. Columbus didn't have a ton of hotels and bars immediately surrounding the Schottenstein Center. Some places it tough or very expensive to get a cab or to venture around the city. Now you have a venue that is centrally located, easily accessed by planes, trains and automobiles, tons of hotel rooms and bars and restaurants and casinos within a short walk or 50 cent people mover ride of the venue and anyone who wants a ticket can get a ticket at a very reasonable price. But alas, the risers suck. That point I cannot argue. It's the honest truth. But overall, it's not too bad, all things considered.
manurespreader
Still upright
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Well I went to the games prepared for the worst. I was pleasantly surprised.
My sight lines were good, I could hear easily and in fact I heard several times players calling for the puck, even though I was quite a ways from the ice.
I know the refs were spending some time fixing divots but I don't think the ice affected play any more than usual. I thought the ambiance and noise levels were appropriate. I thought the food was good, the bathrooms excellent, and overall, I had fun and would go again.
Well I went to the games prepared for the worst. I was pleasantly surprised.
My sight lines were good, I could hear easily and in fact I heard several times players calling for the puck, even though I was quite a ways from the ice.
I know the refs were spending some time fixing divots but I don't think the ice affected play any more than usual. I thought the ambiance and noise levels were appropriate. I thought the food was good, the bathrooms excellent, and overall, I had fun and would go again.
Caustic Undertow
Don't read this message. Really.
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
As a long-time supporter of this idea, I feel it is my duty to give my evaluation of how things actually turned out, as opposed to what I thought would happen. This is all based on hearsay and television viewership, I have absolutely no first-hand experience whatsoever; take it for what it's worth.
<b>Sightlines:</b>
A lot of people were worried about this. Concerned that they wouldn't be able to see. The verdict? In a bizarre twist, some of them were right, but for the wrong reason. As I suspected, the permanent Ford Field seats were pretty good. People who sat in them seem pleased, and while not perfect, people could definitely get a fine view of the action.
The risers were another matter. Seeing them made me cringe--there is no reason why they are so shallow, other than that they were built for basketball and they were what they decided to use. I remain a supporter of Ford Field as a Detroit FF venue, but this mistake was inexcusable. I would like to say that those complaining are overreacting... but I just can't. I would be angry, too.
<b>Ice:</b>
Got better as the day went on. Looked a little funny, but no worse than Boston with the Bruins logo left in. It wasn't perfect, but ice in these events isn't always perfect, as not all venues have good surfaces. Even the Olympics had ice issues. Way better than Fort Wayne.
However, I do not understand why they waited so long to put the ice in. There aren't, to my knowledge, major conflicts at Ford Field in the spring. Others have mentioned money, and that is probably true, but would it cost that much to host it for an extra week and have local junior teams do skatearounds on it or something? If it is possible to have seasoned, good ice by the end of the FF, it should be possible to have it at the beginning.
<b>Fans and Atmosphere</b>:
The fan turnout wasn't bad at all. The pan shots of the stands, particularly during the first game, revealed a large majority of the seat filled--the venue did not have an empty look at all. Not more than FFs at places like Buffalo, at least.
Unfortunately, a couple areas <b>were</b> scarce in fans, and those areas were right in the camera's line of view, behind the benches. What should be prime seats were clearly unusable (I hate sitting behind the benches anywhere, so I don't blame them) and it makes things look bad. And in an event supporters like me want to grow the sport, appearances matter.
It really is impossible to make judgments on the atmosphere because of the quality of the games. The X wouldn't be very loud if Minnesota lost 7-1, either. Perhaps the final will reveal more to us, perhaps not.
<b>The games:</b>
This has nothing to do with the location--except that Miami apparently didn't know where the game was played and forgot to show up. The games were the worst I have ever seen in the Frozen Four. I don't blame RIT for finally coming up short, and I suspected this would happen when I saw the picture of the player getting a hero's welcome when the team got back on campus after beating UNH. Miami, though...
They never showed. It is not that BC was a dominant team and overwhelmed them; BC was good and deserved to win, but Miami looked nothing like the team that narrowly <strikethrough>lost to</strikethrough> edged Michigan two weeks ago. They didn't even look like the team that Michigan took behind woodshed the week before. The defensive positioning was terrible, the effort was bad... when things started going wrong, it just all fell apart.
<b>The Verdict:</b>
Not great. Not awful, except for the people in the risers. I'm told the surrounding activities have been good, as expected. I disagree with those who defend this as a "learning experience." As the haters have said, you don't have "learning experiences" at your premiere event. The issues were not the football stadium or its sightlines--the issues were human and should have been prevented.
This FF has had a lot of bad luck. From the economy tanking to MSU going through a rough stretch and Gravalleast's early whistle to the horrible games on Thursday. On the upside, it is hard to imagine a worse set of game scenarios, and it has still been well attended. On the downside, you cannot plan events and depend on certain teams making it to be a success.
Will they do this again? I don't blame or argue with anyone who says "no." I wasn't necessarily interested in this being repeated myself. It was the best way to get the event to Detroit, and Detroit will hopefully have a new arena by the time it comes up again. I could see it happening in Minneapolis sometime, but that is so far in the future and college hockey has so many problems to work through, it is not worth thinking about.
College hockey is at what I hope is a low ebb. It is hemoraging NHL prospects to Major Junior, teams are folding, local economies are hurting gates, and key teams like Minnesota and Michigan State are struggling competitively. My hope was that this event would be something to rally the community of fans and show prospects something they won't get in the CHL. College hockey seems to discouraged to succeed right now, and I wonder about the future.
As a long-time supporter of this idea, I feel it is my duty to give my evaluation of how things actually turned out, as opposed to what I thought would happen. This is all based on hearsay and television viewership, I have absolutely no first-hand experience whatsoever; take it for what it's worth.
<b>Sightlines:</b>
A lot of people were worried about this. Concerned that they wouldn't be able to see. The verdict? In a bizarre twist, some of them were right, but for the wrong reason. As I suspected, the permanent Ford Field seats were pretty good. People who sat in them seem pleased, and while not perfect, people could definitely get a fine view of the action.
The risers were another matter. Seeing them made me cringe--there is no reason why they are so shallow, other than that they were built for basketball and they were what they decided to use. I remain a supporter of Ford Field as a Detroit FF venue, but this mistake was inexcusable. I would like to say that those complaining are overreacting... but I just can't. I would be angry, too.
<b>Ice:</b>
Got better as the day went on. Looked a little funny, but no worse than Boston with the Bruins logo left in. It wasn't perfect, but ice in these events isn't always perfect, as not all venues have good surfaces. Even the Olympics had ice issues. Way better than Fort Wayne.
However, I do not understand why they waited so long to put the ice in. There aren't, to my knowledge, major conflicts at Ford Field in the spring. Others have mentioned money, and that is probably true, but would it cost that much to host it for an extra week and have local junior teams do skatearounds on it or something? If it is possible to have seasoned, good ice by the end of the FF, it should be possible to have it at the beginning.
<b>Fans and Atmosphere</b>:
The fan turnout wasn't bad at all. The pan shots of the stands, particularly during the first game, revealed a large majority of the seat filled--the venue did not have an empty look at all. Not more than FFs at places like Buffalo, at least.
Unfortunately, a couple areas <b>were</b> scarce in fans, and those areas were right in the camera's line of view, behind the benches. What should be prime seats were clearly unusable (I hate sitting behind the benches anywhere, so I don't blame them) and it makes things look bad. And in an event supporters like me want to grow the sport, appearances matter.
It really is impossible to make judgments on the atmosphere because of the quality of the games. The X wouldn't be very loud if Minnesota lost 7-1, either. Perhaps the final will reveal more to us, perhaps not.
<b>The games:</b>
This has nothing to do with the location--except that Miami apparently didn't know where the game was played and forgot to show up. The games were the worst I have ever seen in the Frozen Four. I don't blame RIT for finally coming up short, and I suspected this would happen when I saw the picture of the player getting a hero's welcome when the team got back on campus after beating UNH. Miami, though...
They never showed. It is not that BC was a dominant team and overwhelmed them; BC was good and deserved to win, but Miami looked nothing like the team that narrowly <strikethrough>lost to</strikethrough> edged Michigan two weeks ago. They didn't even look like the team that Michigan took behind woodshed the week before. The defensive positioning was terrible, the effort was bad... when things started going wrong, it just all fell apart.
<b>The Verdict:</b>
Not great. Not awful, except for the people in the risers. I'm told the surrounding activities have been good, as expected. I disagree with those who defend this as a "learning experience." As the haters have said, you don't have "learning experiences" at your premiere event. The issues were not the football stadium or its sightlines--the issues were human and should have been prevented.
This FF has had a lot of bad luck. From the economy tanking to MSU going through a rough stretch and Gravalleast's early whistle to the horrible games on Thursday. On the upside, it is hard to imagine a worse set of game scenarios, and it has still been well attended. On the downside, you cannot plan events and depend on certain teams making it to be a success.
Will they do this again? I don't blame or argue with anyone who says "no." I wasn't necessarily interested in this being repeated myself. It was the best way to get the event to Detroit, and Detroit will hopefully have a new arena by the time it comes up again. I could see it happening in Minneapolis sometime, but that is so far in the future and college hockey has so many problems to work through, it is not worth thinking about.
College hockey is at what I hope is a low ebb. It is hemoraging NHL prospects to Major Junior, teams are folding, local economies are hurting gates, and key teams like Minnesota and Michigan State are struggling competitively. My hope was that this event would be something to rally the community of fans and show prospects something they won't get in the CHL. College hockey seems to discouraged to succeed right now, and I wonder about the future.
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Even if you ignore the issue of the risers, which is gross incompetence personified, I don't see how you can ever hope to get an atmosphere in such a football field environment that is anywhere close to that of a Frozen Four in an arena built for hockey. The fans are just too far away from the ice surface. You lose a lot of the sounds of the actual game or hear them in a diminished mode. The electricity and energy that you feel in a packed ice arena was missing last night, and it wasn't just because the games weren't close. You can have OK sight lines as long as you're high enough up in a football arena venue, but you will still lose most of the electricity and magic that is present in a hockey arena.
Even if you ignore the issue of the risers, which is gross incompetence personified, I don't see how you can ever hope to get an atmosphere in such a football field environment that is anywhere close to that of a Frozen Four in an arena built for hockey. The fans are just too far away from the ice surface. You lose a lot of the sounds of the actual game or hear them in a diminished mode. The electricity and energy that you feel in a packed ice arena was missing last night, and it wasn't just because the games weren't close. You can have OK sight lines as long as you're high enough up in a football arena venue, but you will still lose most of the electricity and magic that is present in a hockey arena.
HockeyMan2000
New member
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Says it all Bill, thanks for sharing.
Hockey should be played in hockey arenas, not football stadiums.
It's not rocket science to figure that out. And it should be left at that.
Says it all Bill, thanks for sharing.
Hockey should be played in hockey arenas, not football stadiums.
It's not rocket science to figure that out. And it should be left at that.
The Hallucination
half-crazy half-insane maniac
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
True to the Ford Field guy's prediction, I was pleasantly surprised with 129 Row 13: I had an acceptable view of the ice without being too far away.
My parents' risers seats were ridiculously terrible and they moved elsewhere. I had realized the smaller riser section was likely to be bad as it had to meet up with the actual seats in the endzone, but that the larger set of risers were so terrible is a disgrace- with nothing behind them to block there is NO GOOD REASON they could not have put up taller, steeper risers and made those good seats. I'm sure there's a *reason*- reusing existing risers, most likely- but if you want to convince a bunch of skeptical hockey nuts that holding their championship in a football stadium doesn't totally suck, invest in risers with a steeper pitch so they can have a good view of their sport!
Since we were able to find enough seats together for our whole group higher up, we watched the second game from a higher corner, and that was ok.
The crowd was too spread out, and that was very detrimental to the atmosphere. We were thrilled to be there cheering for our Badgers, but later remarked that it didn't *really* have the same championship atmosphere in the cavernous stadium and would have been much less exciting had it not been our team playing.
I really do not want to see the FF in a football stadium ever again, but have a slight fear that it's gone just well enough- and sold enough tickets to make it profitable enough- that the NCAA will try it again. If they do, I'll probably put in for cheaper lottery seats just to make sure I DON'T risk risers... you may be far away higher up but at least you can probably see the whole ice. Also, that way you won't waste as much money on potentially ****ty seats.
So, from one of the haters of this whole idea from the start, it's not as bad as I thought it would be, but I don't think it's good enough to merit repeating- though I fear it will be repeated anyway.
True to the Ford Field guy's prediction, I was pleasantly surprised with 129 Row 13: I had an acceptable view of the ice without being too far away.
My parents' risers seats were ridiculously terrible and they moved elsewhere. I had realized the smaller riser section was likely to be bad as it had to meet up with the actual seats in the endzone, but that the larger set of risers were so terrible is a disgrace- with nothing behind them to block there is NO GOOD REASON they could not have put up taller, steeper risers and made those good seats. I'm sure there's a *reason*- reusing existing risers, most likely- but if you want to convince a bunch of skeptical hockey nuts that holding their championship in a football stadium doesn't totally suck, invest in risers with a steeper pitch so they can have a good view of their sport!
Since we were able to find enough seats together for our whole group higher up, we watched the second game from a higher corner, and that was ok.
The crowd was too spread out, and that was very detrimental to the atmosphere. We were thrilled to be there cheering for our Badgers, but later remarked that it didn't *really* have the same championship atmosphere in the cavernous stadium and would have been much less exciting had it not been our team playing.
I really do not want to see the FF in a football stadium ever again, but have a slight fear that it's gone just well enough- and sold enough tickets to make it profitable enough- that the NCAA will try it again. If they do, I'll probably put in for cheaper lottery seats just to make sure I DON'T risk risers... you may be far away higher up but at least you can probably see the whole ice. Also, that way you won't waste as much money on potentially ****ty seats.
So, from one of the haters of this whole idea from the start, it's not as bad as I thought it would be, but I don't think it's good enough to merit repeating- though I fear it will be repeated anyway.
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Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
I'm guessing they used those shallower risers because a) the NCAA owns them, and b) they originally wanted to have the rink at the center of the stadium and try to sell 70,000 tickets, where the shallow risers are all that would work.
It seems to me that this has not been a horrible disaster, but not nearly enough of a success to tempt the NCAA to try it again. If it was a major success, you know they'd try for the 70,000 seat configuration...
As I posted earlier, this kinda sums up my thoughts on the issue:
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AfkdZ3tXFSs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AfkdZ3tXFSs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
I'm guessing they used those shallower risers because a) the NCAA owns them, and b) they originally wanted to have the rink at the center of the stadium and try to sell 70,000 tickets, where the shallow risers are all that would work.
It seems to me that this has not been a horrible disaster, but not nearly enough of a success to tempt the NCAA to try it again. If it was a major success, you know they'd try for the 70,000 seat configuration...
As I posted earlier, this kinda sums up my thoughts on the issue:
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AfkdZ3tXFSs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AfkdZ3tXFSs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
This is the first FF I've missed since 1991. It feel kind of odd not being there, but me and my buddies made the decision over a year ago that we would not watch hockey in a football stadium (unless UNH was there. Almost happened). The main reason for me was digesting the experiences of a good friend of mine who has watched the basketball FF in New Orleans a couple of times. Sitting in the upper deck, he said he could barely see the basketball. So I figure, if that's where I am sitting, how am I going to see a puck. Even when they decided to change the sighting of the rink so that it would similar to the Carrier Dome, I wasn't swayed. Based on the comments I've read, and what I saw on TV last night, I think I made the right decision.
I'll be back at St. Paul next year, and in Tampa/St. Pete the year after, but I fear that the football stadiums have become part of the equation. Next time around I see the Metrodome and Edwin Jones in St. Louis, hate to say. The NCAA ****s!
This is the first FF I've missed since 1991. It feel kind of odd not being there, but me and my buddies made the decision over a year ago that we would not watch hockey in a football stadium (unless UNH was there. Almost happened). The main reason for me was digesting the experiences of a good friend of mine who has watched the basketball FF in New Orleans a couple of times. Sitting in the upper deck, he said he could barely see the basketball. So I figure, if that's where I am sitting, how am I going to see a puck. Even when they decided to change the sighting of the rink so that it would similar to the Carrier Dome, I wasn't swayed. Based on the comments I've read, and what I saw on TV last night, I think I made the right decision.
I'll be back at St. Paul next year, and in Tampa/St. Pete the year after, but I fear that the football stadiums have become part of the equation. Next time around I see the Metrodome and Edwin Jones in St. Louis, hate to say. The NCAA ****s!
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
If you're basing your opinion of Ford Field on the Superdome, that's a bad comparison. The upper deck of the Superdome is notorious for being extremely high and a mile away because it was terribly constructed with the majority of the seats being in the upper level, as you can see here:
It along with the Georgia Dome are known to be the worst of the Final Four dome the NCAA rotates through and I can't bear to think how bad a center court setup at either place will look.
If you're basing your opinion of Ford Field on the Superdome, that's a bad comparison. The upper deck of the Superdome is notorious for being extremely high and a mile away because it was terribly constructed with the majority of the seats being in the upper level, as you can see here:
It along with the Georgia Dome are known to be the worst of the Final Four dome the NCAA rotates through and I can't bear to think how bad a center court setup at either place will look.
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Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Regardless of the actual number, I'm certain that this was solidly past 20K, probably past 25 and quite possibly actually in the 30K region.
The real question will be, how many of the new/casual fans are pleased enough with the setup and the quality of the games to ever try again? Hopefully tomorrow night will be a better game than Thursday's were.
This is something I did try to take into account. And I would definitely be very interested in the number of actually scanned tickets, as opposed to paid attendance.
Regardless of the actual number, I'm certain that this was solidly past 20K, probably past 25 and quite possibly actually in the 30K region.
The real question will be, how many of the new/casual fans are pleased enough with the setup and the quality of the games to ever try again? Hopefully tomorrow night will be a better game than Thursday's were.
In all honesty, it didn't look as bad from the seats looking directly at the ice as it did when I looked at the big screens at the ends of the stadium. I presume this is one of those effects where TV cameras highlight certain aspects that aren't as obvious to the naked eye. It was pretty noticeable in the creases and especially right after the zambonis got done (if you could ignore the massive puddles...) but that faded for the most part to my eye during actual play, until I looked at the screens. You could always tell they were there, but they really weren't all that distracting.
Huskiefan906
Well-known member
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Well, I paid for the cheap seats and enjoyed just being at my first Frozen Four.
During the early portions of the BC Miami game it was exciting to hear the roar of the crowd as a good scoring chance or rush up the ice was in progress.
The only thing that hurt the event was the non-frozen four like games, but that will be corrected tomorrow with what should be an outstanding hockey game. My wife and my son will be there by my side to see a Champion crowned. How cool is that, so just enjoy being a part of it.
Oh and by the way.............
Go Wisconsin......
Well, I paid for the cheap seats and enjoyed just being at my first Frozen Four.
During the early portions of the BC Miami game it was exciting to hear the roar of the crowd as a good scoring chance or rush up the ice was in progress.
The only thing that hurt the event was the non-frozen four like games, but that will be corrected tomorrow with what should be an outstanding hockey game. My wife and my son will be there by my side to see a Champion crowned. How cool is that, so just enjoy being a part of it.
Oh and by the way.............
Go Wisconsin......
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Based on what I've seen so far in here and on other bulletin boards and mailing lists, I'm glad I sat this one out. For the skeptics like me, the best I've seen so far is "Not as bad as I thought."
I'm glad this is over. Looking forward to at least the next two years.
Remember that the NCAA doesn't just go out and pick venues. Someone needs to make a bid. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I don't think FFFF has been enough of a success that domes will be lining up to make bids. St. Louis is way too far away from hockey country to make sense. Metrodome, maybe, but Minnesota's got other facilities that have been very successful.
Based on what I've seen so far in here and on other bulletin boards and mailing lists, I'm glad I sat this one out. For the skeptics like me, the best I've seen so far is "Not as bad as I thought."
I'm glad this is over. Looking forward to at least the next two years.
Re: Ford Field Rink Installation
Interesting. The X has been very aggressive in its pursuit of NCAA hockey events and, if I'm not mistaken, has always partnered with MN. Now that the Metrodump is vacant most of the year I wonder if the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission, the quasi political group that runs the dome, will aggressively pursue a FF? Maybe trying to partner with BSU, MSU-M, SCSU, or UMD? Stay tuned.
Interesting. The X has been very aggressive in its pursuit of NCAA hockey events and, if I'm not mistaken, has always partnered with MN. Now that the Metrodump is vacant most of the year I wonder if the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission, the quasi political group that runs the dome, will aggressively pursue a FF? Maybe trying to partner with BSU, MSU-M, SCSU, or UMD? Stay tuned.