Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Sounds like you're standards for perfection are fairly low.

read the part you quoted once more. He said that Ryan's proposal ISN'T perfect.
But he's one of the few (the only?) politicians willing to admit that we're all screwed if we don't get serious about dialing back spending to rational levels. That's important.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

read the part you quoted once more. He said that Ryan's proposal ISN'T perfect.
But he's one of the few (the only?) politicians willing to admit that we're all screwed if we don't get serious about dialing back spending to rational levels. That's important.

The biggest problem with Ryan's conceptual budget is that it doesn't cut defense. But, if people stop and realize that his budget would never be implemented in a vacuum, I'm sure he realized that the Dems main area where they'd want to cut is defense, so there'd certainly be give and take on that to reach a final budget. Comments like 5mn's just remind me how little the American electorate is engaged in or seems to even care that our nation is racing towards fiscal disaster. I predict Ryan will be absolutely crucified the next few months for actually putting forward a substantive (if flawed) proposal to address our nation's fiscal problems.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

read the part you quoted once more. He said that Ryan's proposal ISN'T perfect.
But he's one of the few (the only?) politicians willing to admit that we're all screwed if we don't get serious about dialing back spending to rational levels. That's important.

It's perfect for the Baby Boomers. They get a pass.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Don't get me wrong as I said before...

I think Ryan is a smart pick. He is likeable and gets some attention back to the ticket at a time when Romney needed it. His plan is biased and this may be sensed by many in the middle. The team will be at risk with many aspects of the budget plan to the middle...but its exactly the right agenda item to bring to the forefront. The GOP is correct in wanting to raise the deficit or 'fiscal' conservative side of its platform (rather than trojan horse social conservatism and its military counterpart which typically results in the majority of GOP attention and which most moderates can't stand).

I just don't think Ryan helped give the ticket any critically needed experience beyond the budget (which Romney probably had the tools for anyways)...and not in the areas of actual public policy, the economy and foriegn affairs.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Comments like 5mn's just remind me how little the American electorate is engaged in or seems to even care that our nation is racing towards fiscal disaster. I predict Ryan will be absolutely crucified the next few months for actually putting forward a substantive (if flawed) proposal to address our nation's fiscal problems.

Bob read my previous post. Fiscal responsibility is the issue for the GOP...and is needed across the board. As the previous 12 years have shown, the only time the GOP is interesed in fiscal responsibility is when they are either out of power...or they put the burden on the bottom half of Americans and infrastructure like education and science both of which are needed to build the country's future strength.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

It's perfect for the Baby Boomers. They get a pass.

So, at the very least, it's no worse than the status quo.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Bob read my previous post. Fiscal responsibility is the issue for the GOP...and is needed across the board. As the previous 12 years have shown, the only time the GOP is interesed in fiscal responsibility is when they are either out of power...or they put the burden on the bottom half of Americans and infrastructure like education and science both of which are needed to build the country's future strength.

Which, even if true, is more effort than your party makes toward fiscal responsibility. So, tell me, is fiscal responsibility at all important to you in how our nation is run and how we pick our leaders?

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Given the panic and dumbassery surrounding the "super committee" automatic spending cuts for next year, it's pretty impossible for me to view Ryan's plan as an opening gambit where negotiations would lead to something that everyone could swallow.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

But [Ryan is] one of the few (the only?) politicians willing to admit that we're all screwed if we don't get serious about dialing back spending to rational levels. That's important.

There are a lot of Republicans who are happy to say that we're screwed if we don't dial spending back. There are two issues there. First is that they're in a mad rush to do it right now, immediately, regardless of the economic consequences (to the credit of some, they subscribe to the Austrian school, so they come by their position honestly, even if I think it's terribly wrong-headed). Second is that their willingness to make admissions only extends as far as dialing back spending. They remain steadfastly unwilling to admit that we're all screwed if we don't return taxation to rational levels (or we'll have to return to a 1900-style social contract, which is great for the robber baron social darwinists but bad for just about everyone else).

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

There are a lot of Republicans who are happy to say that we're screwed if we don't dial spending back. There are two issues there. First is that they're in a mad rush to do it right now, immediately, regardless of the economic consequences (to the credit of some, they subscribe to the Austrian school, so they come by their position honestly, even if I think it's terribly wrong-headed). Second is that their willingness to make admissions only extends as far as dialing back spending. They remain steadfastly unwilling to admit that we're all screwed if we don't return taxation to rational levels (or we'll have to return to a 1900-style social contract, which is great for the robber baron social darwinists but bad for just about everyone else).

Where were they when Bush was running the system into the ground?

Paul Ryan is a fine example. He rubber stamped EVERYTHING that Bush did. And we're to believe that he's fiscally sane? No, I don't think so.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Which, even if true, is more effort than your party makes toward fiscal responsibility. So, tell me, is fiscal responsibility at all important to you in how our nation is run and how we pick our leaders?

Not necessarily true. Countless times before we've shown graphs over time of deficits. Don't have the charts here...but they can be reproduced yet again. But they largely show the deficit balooned under Reagan and W. And we almost balanced the budget under Clinton. Its hard to say what would have happened under Obama if the administration had been handed a healthy economy. There's no question that there has been a period where the private sector did not spend so some govt spending has patched us over...while he also inherited decimated govt revenues. So the GOP has never shown itself to be any more fiscally prudent than the dems when they actually have a chance to be so.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Where were they when Bush was running the system into the ground?

Paul Ryan is a fine example. He rubber stamped EVERYTHING that Bush did. And we're to believe that he's fiscally sane? No, I don't think so.

It's kind of insane that there are two Senators and a House Rep in the 4 major slots. You end up with scenarios where the Republicans ran ads including Senator Obama's speech against Bush's raising of the debt ceiling and you have "fiscal conservative, budget hawk" Paul Ryan and his rubber stamp for unfunded mandates, tax cuts, wars and increased spending.

Most of these morons basically traded scripts in January 2009. The only ones we're left unsure of are the Tea Party folks, and would they continue to be a pain in the *** of any spending with a guy with a (R) at 1600 Pennsylvania. I kind of think they would be, given how much of a migraine they routinely give Boehner.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Not necessarily true. Countless times before we've shown graphs over time of deficits. Don't have the charts here...but they can be reproduced yet again. But they largely show the deficit balooned under Reagan and W. And we almost balanced the budget under Clinton. Its hard to say what would have happened under Obama if the administration had been handed a healthy economy. There's no question that there has been a period where the private sector did not spend so some govt spending has patched us over...while he also inherited decimated govt revenues. So the GOP has never shown itself to be any more fiscally prudent than the dems when they actually have a chance to be so.

So, again, what's your interest in fiscal responsibility, if you have any?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

There are a lot of Republicans who are happy to say that we're screwed if we don't dial spending back. There are two issues there. First is that they're in a mad rush to do it right now, immediately, regardless of the economic consequences (to the credit of some, they subscribe to the Austrian school, so they come by their position honestly, even if I think it's terribly wrong-headed). Second is that their willingness to make admissions only extends as far as dialing back spending. They remain steadfastly unwilling to admit that we're all screwed if we don't return taxation to rational levels (or we'll have to return to a 1900-style social contract, which is great for the robber baron social darwinists but bad for just about everyone else).

Basically we're shafted either way. The economy isn't that strong right now, but if we stopped our $1.2 trillion a year deficit spending (which is juicing up the economy in a huge way) in a substantive way, it'd result in a major economic downturn. If we don't reign in the every growing deficit spending, we ruin our nation's financial, undercut the dollar, etc. Not an appealing choice. So, I can understand that the easiest thing is keep spending way more than the feds take in and hope somehow things get better down the road, knowing that all signs point to the fact that they won't.

 

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

My thoughts:

Putting aside partisan leanings for a minute, this is the pick Romney needed to make. As I said months ago out here, if he's going to own Ryan's budget he might as well have Ryan on the ticket. For once I think conventional wisdom was correct in that Romney needed to do something to shake up the race. Mission accomplished.

I'll also say this kills once and for all the "there's no difference in parties" schtick we get out of the usual loons every election year. There is a clear choice of how you want the country to be governed. Far from just the President this is now a vote for both houses of Congress too, as I can't see people choosing divided govt again when the fault lines are crystal clear.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming. As a Dem I'm liking this. There was some blathering about the youth vote not showing up this year. Well, giving those over 55 a free pass while reaming everybody else below that age takes care of young voter enthusiasm real quick. Far from doubling down on generational warfare, the Mittster ticket has now gone all in. Its an older, wealthy, white demographic vs everyone else. I'm not sure what polling Mittens campaign is seeing, but they must really be expecting an identical electorate to the 2010 midterms to show up in November.

Other random musings...

I can't get enough of some of the stupidity coming out of the media. Not from paid consultants mind you but the so called non partisan media. Somebody had an analysis about how this bridges the GOP gap to the youth vote because Ryan is 42. Wasn't Palin about that age also? How did that work out?

Then there's the "Catholic vote" a bloc of voters that doesn't exist. Yes there are Catholic voters out there but they don't vote with a common theme. I also like the part about Ryan now making Wisconsin and Iowa a swing state. Huskyfan in fact bought into this idiocy. Can we maybe wait to see a couple of polls before we jump to any conclusions here? The vast majority of the country has no idea who the dude is, but they're about to find out real quick as the Obama campaign paints a nice portrait for the rest of us.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Paul Ryan also voted for No Child Left Behind in addition to the wars, TARP, and the Bush Tax Cuts.

Clearly he is a fiscal conservative, except when it's something he wants to spend money on like the huge military machine.

When we finally nominate and elect someone who doesn't have any sacred cows let me know.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Iowa is a swing state, Rover. Obama's usually been around 2-4 points ahead, with the occasional outlier both ways.

Wisconsin hasn't been that close.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Paul Ryan also voted for No Child Left Behind in addition to the wars, TARP, and the Bush Tax Cuts.

Clearly he is a fiscal conservative, except when it's something he wants to spend money on like the huge military machine.

When we finally nominate and elect someone who doesn't have any sacred cows let me know.

Seems that if some folks at least talk about sacred cows, that's a move in the right direction. The lack of actual discussion about sacred cows and how they relate to the entire cow population is staggering.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

As I said months ago out here, if he's going to own Ryan's budget he might as well have Ryan on the ticket.

Except nearly the first words out of Romney's mouth were to the effect of, Yes he has a budget proposal but we arent running on it, I have my own budget proposal and that is what we are running on.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Except nearly the first words out of Romney's mouth were to the effect of, Yes he has a budget proposal but we arent running on it, I have my own budget proposal and that is what we are running on.

Yeah. And Romney's propoosal is to raise taxes on 99% of the US Population while giving a huge tax cut to the 1%. Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!