Education

[LynahFan]

Re: Education

Things with only one solution aren't answers, they're just calculations.

(We pay you guys well for doing the unimaginative jobs. Now, back to work.)

I know you're being at least somewhat (perhaps mostly?) tongue in cheek, but engineering is all about the answers only when it is done poorly. If you think there's only one solution to an engineering problem, then I have a Betamax to sell you.

The good engineers are the ones who know what questions to ask, and that does take creativity, the ability to think critically (and often morally), and far more knowledge than just how to crunch the numbers. The ones who just crunch numbers are the engineering equivalent of accountants. Sure, we need some of those guys at the company, but they'd better not end up running the place.

 

[JohnN]

Re: Education

Looking through my own company (a bank) of a little more than 250,000 employees, and especially within my area, I would disagree with a lot of this. ...

Thanks for the response. I'm glad your bank is progressive.

I speak mostly from my experience trying to get a job with a Mathematics and Political Science double major from one of the top schools in the nation. My resume won't even get me an interview for jobs I could do blindfolded. I've heard "We only interviewed the qualified people." so many times it's driving me nuts.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Education

Things with only one solution aren't answers, they're just calculations.

In over 30 years of engineering, I don't think I've ever met a problem with only one solution. I have met plenty of engineers and plenty of managers who can only think of one solution though.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Education

Worse though, you have to be careful, many professors view their views as the vanguard of critical thinking and apply the definitions of those who "do" and "do not" critically think based on held beliefs and not applications of reason and rule standards.

This seems overstated to me. I'm sure there are professors out there who behave like that, but their presence at selective colleges and universities is surely overstated.

Part of the problem is selection bias. The students who complain the loudest about 'belief discrimination' often are the ones whose beliefs are most immune to critical scrutiny. Students with deeply held political beliefs are often lazier than their counterparts when it comes to argumentation. I saw this primarily on the political left (note the amherst part of my ID), but it holds on all sides.

I used to find it interesting, at least in smaller groups, to get people to argue positions they disagreed with. Outside of your comfort zone, you have no choice but to think.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: Education

Things with only one solution aren't answers, they're just calculations.

(We pay you guys well for doing the unimaginative jobs. Now, back to work.)

Engineers do calculations, but they're also the people who've dreamed up, imagined, and then could create all of the cool technologies that make the world today. So tweet that out of your smart phone.


To the larger point here: Learning for the sake of learning is no longer considered a virtue.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Education

To the larger point here: Learning for the sake of learning is no longer considered a virtue.

Book learning is elitist.

Or you're a NERDD!!!

 

[geezer]

Re: Education

Just last night started reading Shop Class as Soulcraft, a defense of manual labor/trades/craftsmanship as a legitimate choice for smart people in the face of the gigantic 90's push for "knowledge workers" that saw schools eliminate shop programs all over the country, by a guy that turned his back on his top-notch classical education, political philosophy PhD, and lucrative gig in a Washington think tank to open a motorcycle repair shop. It's interesting.

 

[jen]

Re: Education

The good engineers are the ones who know what questions to ask, and that does take creativity, the ability to think critically (and often morally), and far more knowledge than just how to crunch the numbers. The ones who just crunch numbers are the engineering equivalent of accountants. Sure, we need some of those guys at the company, but they'd better not end up running the place.

completely agree for my field as well. not everyone with a comp sci degree is going to be a good programmer (and I don't even have one of those), but you do need the ones that can just code their little piece and not have their hands held the whole time. But you REALLY need the ones who can think critically, ask the right questions, analyze, resolve problems and improve processes. I have seen a ton of programmers that can code something, but when it doesn't work, they have absolutely NO CLUE what to do, or even how to begin figuring it out, because they never acquired the critical thinking skills necessary to do so (for whatever reason - personal or institutional).

To the larger point here: Learning for the sake of learning is no longer considered a virtue.

this makes me sad.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Education

Engineers do calculations, but they're also the people who've dreamed up, imagined, and then could create all of the cool technologies that make the world today.

Perhaps the smiley wasn't big enough?

To the larger point here: Learning for the sake of learning is no longer considered a virtue.

This is probably the result of the democratization of education, so while it's deplorable at least it had well-meaning roots. Non-instrumental learning is a lot more practical for the trust fund set. When education catered to their interests, even the few talented proles who rose through the system inculcated those values. That's where you get all those amazing working class New York City guys up until about 1940 -- they came from first generation poverty but because education was still elitist, they had amazingly high standards -- to be honest, unsustainably for almost all students (most people dropped out of high school and went to work).

Once we started trying to educate everybody, which was good, the aim of education became public utility and social control: the adequate were drilled in what employers needed, the rest were kept off the streets for as along as possible.

I strongly suspect it doesn't matter in the long run, though, in terms of a Mandarin class. The talented tenth have always been able to find the library, and the vast majority of the remainder simply don't care, either Idol's on or the latest technological geegaws are cool.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Education

I know you're being at least somewhat (perhaps mostly?) tongue in cheek, but engineering is all about the answers only when it is done poorly.

I'm being tongue-in-cheek. The serious point is: technology is not science. It's perfectly feasible to be a very successful technologist while still having the imaginative abilities of a door knob -- you can follow recipes or glad-hand at sales meetings all day. A scientist without imagination, however, is lost.

Engineers come in both flavors, though naturally in a group that self-selects on college hockey all the posters are above average.