Education

[Kepler]

Stanley Fish defends the ideals and practical consequences of a classical education.

Given infinite time and resources, I'd love to study at St. John's College in Santa Fe someday.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Education

Stanley Fish defends the ideals and practical consequences of a classical education.

Given infinite time and resources, I'd love to study at St. John's College in Santa Fe someday.

It's interesting that Fish quotes at length Nussbaum's book. She appeared on C-Span's "In Depth" show this past weekend. I rarely last halfway through that show, especially once the phone calls start. But I caught a fair amount of hers, and I certainly intend to pick up her book.

She made two comments that really rang true for me. First, she pointed out in today's budgetary world for schools, programs like the Arts, music and foreign languages are always the first to be cut because they are considered "frills" or extras, when in fact they form part of the foundation for a classical education and probably should be the last cut.

Second, it's her opinion colleges and universities have essentially become "trade schools", not significantly different from a school that teaches someone to become an auto mechanic in a one or two year program. Their goal is to teach someone a craft at which they can earn a paycheck, not to educate to think critically, analyze problems, etc...

I'm sure a re-broadcast of the show is on the web somewhere and if interested, at least the first hour or so is worth your time.

 

[ColbyWMHB]

Re: Education

Second, it's her opinion colleges and universities have essentially become "trade schools", not significantly different from a school that teaches someone to become an auto mechanic in a one or two year program. Their goal is to teach someone a craft at which they can earn a paycheck, not to educate to think critically, analyze problems, etc...

Bingo! I'll directly state another goal of public schools you implied in your above remarks: to teach kids how to take standardized tests that by and large don't test kids on critical thinking, problem solving, etc.

I teach HS, and it is frustrating beyond belief to create assignments that have kids create, analyze, defend, and other upper-level thinking tasks only to watch them fall apart because they just want someone to "tell us what the answer is". This problem has gotten significantly more drastic in the last 10 years.

The reality is that budgets and tests scores completely drive education. You can't ever get rid of the two (nor should we--both are necessary components) but as long as those are the 2 things that the public predominantly cares about, schools will fall short in the area of truly educating our kids to be thinkers (and not regurgitators).

 

[Foxton]

Re: Education

I blame Texas.

There must be some dentist out there who can stand up to the experts and tell them that they don't know anything!

 

[Kepler]

Re: Education

It's interesting that Fish quotes at length Nussbaum's book. She appeared on C-Span's "In Depth" show this past weekend. I rarely last halfway through that show, especially once the phone calls start. But I caught a fair amount of hers, and I certainly intend to pick up her book.

I am reading her book The Fragility of Goodness: Luck and Ethics in Greek Tragedy and Philosophy at the moment.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Education

Education? In America?

 

[French Rage]

Re: Education

Second, it's her opinion colleges and universities have essentially become "trade schools", not significantly different from a school that teaches someone to become an auto mechanic in a one or two year program. Their goal is to teach someone a craft at which they can earn a paycheck, not to educate to think critically, analyze problems, etc...

Part of this I would think is due to colleges being much more concentrated on the middle and working classes now than they did a century of so ago, meaning there is dire need to learn a specific trade and career than back when it was the more moneyed classes and one good pursue a more philosophical and classical education.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Education

Part of this I would think is due to colleges being much more concentrated on the middle and working classes now than they did a century of so ago, meaning there is dire need to learn a specific trade and career than back when it was the more moneyed classes and one good pursue a more philosophical and classical education.

That's part of it. The other part is that America celebrates excellence in sport and the lowest common denominator in everything else.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Education

Second, it's her opinion colleges and universities have essentially become "trade schools", not significantly different from a school that teaches someone to become an auto mechanic in a one or two year program. Their goal is to teach someone a craft at which they can earn a paycheck, not to educate to think critically, analyze problems, etc...

Pretty much. Gen eds/electives, formerly a welcome change of pace from the grind of the courses in your major, are now often seen a "blowoffs" and "easy As", and the assistant profs/TAs who get saddled with them quite often grade them as such. Going to a "Tech" university, it was even worse - writing papers was usually viewed by my fellow students as a chore and/or a joke, not a "real" skill. I laugh when these people get out into the real world and are asked to develop a presentation or write a formal proposal.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Education

Education? In America?

Read. Memorize. Recite.

For the classes that required creativity, interpretation was a big factor. I flunked my Poli-Sci class due to a very liberal teacher (and my counselor agreed that was the reason I failed, due to me being a moderate conservative).

MIND YOU: that's not to say that all libs have a grudge against cons, or vice versa. My tree-hugging hippie creative writing teacher's class? I aced and then some. She actually encouraged me to pursue a career in writing in some form.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Education

For the classes that required creativity, interpretation was a big factor. I flunked my Poli-Sci class due to a very liberal teacher (and my counselor agreed that was the reason I failed, due to me being a moderate conservative).

If I ever become a professor (it's my back-burner career option at this point), I will never flunk a student just because they don't see things my way. Those people do a severe disservice to education.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Education

If I ever become a professor (it's my back-burner career option at this point), I will never flunk a student just because they don't see things my way. Those people do a severe disservice to education.

Exactly. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect them to at least see where I'm coming from, and vice versa (to a point, obviously).

 

[XYZ]

Re: Education

Their goal is to teach someone a craft at which they can earn a paycheck.

...not to educate to think critically, analyze problems, etc...

What's sad is that these are somehow viewed exclusively these days.

 

[French Rage]

Re: Education

Exactly. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect them to at least see where I'm coming from, and vice versa (to a point, obviously).

I say if people don't want their grades based on someone else's whims, pick a degree with real answers like science and engineering, not a B.S. fest like the arts and the humanities! Granted my world would be a dark and soulless place, but at least it would be efficient about it!

 

[JohnN]

Re: Education

Second, it's her opinion colleges and universities have essentially become "trade schools", not significantly different from a school that teaches someone to become an auto mechanic in a one or two year program. Their goal is to teach someone a craft at which they can earn a paycheck, not to educate to think critically, analyze problems, etc...

I put a lot of this problem on the hiring practices of business and industry.

It used to be that if you graduated from a decent college with a degree like biology or psychology you could get hired for just about any entry level job at a company and then if you performed well promotions would follow.

Now companies only hire HR people with HR degrees, managers with management degrees, PR people with PR degrees and if you want to get promoted you have to change companies because you are only "qualified" to do one thing. I know this is a little of a generalization, but for the most part it's true.

I think colleges like this because it keeps people coming back. Students used to get a four year degree and disappear. Now they have to come back every five years to start a new "education" because their old one doesn't work any more.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Education

Exactly. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect them to at least see where I'm coming from, and vice versa (to a point, obviously).

Minnesota, by any chance?

::Shakes head knowingly::

 

[The Rube]

Re: Education

I say if people don't want their grades based on someone else's whims, pick a degree with real answers like science and engineering, not a B.S. fest like the arts and the humanities! Granted my world would be a dark and soulless place, but at least it would be efficient about it!

This was an elective class, because I thought it'd be interesting to hear all the different viewpoints of people. My major at the time was accounting.

Minnesota, by any chance?

::Shakes head knowingly::

Darn tootin', don'cha know.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Education

I say if people don't want their grades based on someone else's whims, pick a degree with real answers like science and engineering, not a B.S. fest like the arts and the humanities! Granted my world would be a dark and soulless place, but at least it would be efficient about it!

Things with only one solution aren't answers, they're just calculations.

(We pay you guys well for doing the unimaginative jobs. Now, back to work.)

 

[Patman]

Re: Education

Second, it's her opinion colleges and universities have essentially become "trade schools", not significantly different from a school that teaches someone to become an auto mechanic in a one or two year program. Their goal is to teach someone a craft at which they can earn a paycheck, not to educate to think critically, analyze problems, etc...

That's incumbent on the student themselves. Most social sciences are usually tied to whether a solution feels optimal owing to some moral or political paradigm. What is often lacking nowadays are programs which force critical thinking rigor... that has nothing to do with funding... that has to do with the demands that ask that a certain portion of the students should pass a class.

Of course the issue of critical thinking at large should be incumbent on the student. Unless you're going to make rhetoric and non-mathematical logic an element mandatory for a college degree you are going nowhere. Then only the pressure of needing the college degree will necessitate the student to adapt to needing such skills.

Language programs or other programs in and of themselves are going to do absolutely nothing. The issue has to be forced... few students will induce themselves to such a program (that is program which mandates "critical thinking") if it can otherwise be avoided. Worse though, you have to be careful, many professors view their views as the vanguard of critical thinking and apply the definitions of those who "do" and "do not" critically think based on held beliefs and not applications of reason and rule standards.

Nevertheless, the "trade" schools stuff is pretty much bunk. It takes a lot of reasoning skills to be a competent engineer, chemist, and a lot of other things. Of course you can also be a barely passable person at those things too.

The largest element more than anything else is not dollars spent... humanities can be done very cheaply. Its mandated rigor and expectations of the classes within the university.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Education

I put a lot of this problem on the hiring practices of business and industry.

It used to be that if you graduated from a decent college with a degree like biology or psychology you could get hired for just about any entry level job at a company and then if you performed well promotions would follow.

Now companies only hire HR people with HR degrees, managers with management degrees, PR people with PR degrees and if you want to get promoted you have to change companies because you are only "qualified" to do one thing. I know this is a little of a generalization, but for the most part it's true.

I think colleges like this because it keeps people coming back. Students used to get a four year degree and disappear. Now they have to come back every five years to start a new "education" because their old one doesn't work any more.

Looking through my own company (a bank) of a little more than 250,000 employees, and especially within my area, I would disagree with a lot of this. While specialized careers can require specialized degrees, I know for a fact that that none of the managers with whom I work hold management degrees. One has a psych degree, another a math degree, one accounting, and the fourth got a sociology degree. Hell, the guy who had been a supervisor and since promoted to non-production work for the group has a music degree. The group for which I work settles stock and bond trades in excess of a $1T a year, and then there's the mutual fund settlement team which adds a few hundred billion more each year to that total. Employers will hire the talent and promote it when they see it.

At the same time, I work with a whole slew of guys who hold finance and accounting degrees that never seem to advance out of the entry-level positions. They simply either don't have the drive or don't have the capacity to do other things in this line of work.

I will say, adding on to others' comments, that schools need to spend more time trying to develop analytical skills of their students. I've had conversations with people who could tell you all the technical ins and outs of a process, but are completely useless when trying to improve it. Either they've never been trained to give a thoughtful analysis or they simply lack the talent despite classes. I don't know which, and it would probably not go over well at all if I asked.

On that same token, one of the women with whom I work first attended college at some small private school near Spokane, WA. She told me about the challenges faced there in her curriculum, and how it excited her to learn. Had circumstances not forced her to leave that school to come out to MN, she would have likely gotten a great education. Now she's attending the local community college while working, and constantly bemoans the simplicity with which that school teaches its course work. Sadly, I think more and more colleges have turned into the latter than the former.

In fact, this same woman is 22, holds no college degree, but my manager spotted her potential while briefly working with her on a small project, promoted her into my group, and has since promoted her again - and rightfully so. She's a phenomenal business systems analyst.