ECAC D2/D3 history question

[scoopnroll]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Based on the history of the ECAC:

There became and offiicial ECAC East and ECAC West Championship seperately starting in 1978.

For some reason in 1991-92 the ECAC East only had 7 seeds while the West had 8 seeds for the playoffs and those playoff seeds looked like this.

ECAC East
1. UConn
2. Middlebury
3. Salem State
4. Babson
5. Bowdoin
6. Norwich
7. Umass Boston

ECAC West
1. Plattsburgh St.
2. Elmira
3. Mercyhurst
4. Fredonia
5. Geneseo St.
6. Oswego St.
7. RIT
8. Hobart

Prior to 1978 your ECAC Champions looked like this:
1966 Colby Runner Up Merrimack
1967 Merrimack RU Colby
1968 Merrimack RU Hamilton
1969 AIC RU Norwich
1970 UVM RU Bowdoin
1971 Bowdoin RU UVM
1972 Umass Amherst RU Univ. of Buffalo
1973 UVM RU Bowdoin
1974 UVM RU Merrimack
1975 Bowdoin RU Hamilton
1976 Bowdoin RU Merrimack
1977 Merrimack RU Union

In the late 70's into the 80's the top 2 teams from the East and the West would meet in the NCAA's.

Were there common play-offs involving some of the ECAC East and ECAC West teams or did the "ECAC West" with the current ECAC East and NESCAC teams that you list only exist for a short time?? Bowdoin's records for the "ECAC" play-offs (those records start in the 1970s and run through 1998) include games with Norwich, Middlebury, Hamilton, Army, and North Adams State, starting in the 1970s and running in to the 1980s and then, in the case of Middlebury and Norwich, throughout the 1990s. No sign at all of any SUNYAC or any of the other NY-based teams in those ECAC records so that would imply that perhaps those teams were not involved in those play-offs.

 

[Ralph Slate]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Here is what I currently believe the D2/D3 league lineage should be.

ECAC Division 2 -> 1965-66(ish) to 1984-85
ECAC East/West -> 1985-86 to 1991-92
ECAC East/West/SUNY -> 1991-92 to ???
ECAC East/West -> ??? to today

ECAC Division 3 -> 1971-72(ish) to 1984-85
ECAC North/South -> 1985-86 to 1991-92
ECAC North/South/Central -> 1992-93 to 1997-98
ECAC Northeast -> 1998-99 to today

So I think there are basically just two master leagues which renamed/rebranded themselves several times over the years.

Over that timeline, there were a couple of mass exoduses. The SUNY teams left the ECAC to rebrand themselves primarily as SUNYAC, but I don't know when that was. The MAAC teams left in 1998-99. I don't yet know when the NESCAC teams left to rebrand themselves primarily as NESCAC. Those dates are hard to pin down because teams can be part of multiple conferences, so, for example, the SUNY teams were part of SUNYAC even while they were part of ECAC East/West.

I am also still confused as to when D3 started. I have several sources from the early 70s, but they appear to be contradictory. My 1972-73 ECAC Media Guide shows a small Division 3 in 1971-72, one team that I remember was Worcester State, maybe also Babson. My NCAA hockey guide shows the same thing. I don't have a ECAC guide for 1973-74, but my NCAA guide shows only Division 2 teams for 1972-73, with teams like Worcester State and Babson back in Division 2. Then in 1973-74 they are back in D3.

Can anyone help with that info?

 

[neumyer]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

The 1999-2000 season was the first where a NESCAC champion was crowned as a result of a conference tournament, the winner of which got an NCAA autobid. Up to 1998-99 any NESCAC team had to hope for an at large bid and could not play in the ECAC East tournament if offered a bid to that because they could only participate in one post season tournament.

 

[93GreatLaker]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

The SUNY teams left the ECAC to rebrand themselves primarily as SUNYAC, but I don't know when that was.

The '91-'92 season was the last the SUNY teams participated in the ECAC West playoffs, my guess is that would be the cut-off.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Here is what I currently believe the D2/D3 league lineage should be.

ECAC Division 2 -> 1965-66(ish) to 1984-85
ECAC East/West -> 1985-86 to 1991-92
ECAC East/West/SUNY -> 1991-92 to ???
ECAC East/West -> ??? to today

ECAC Division 3 -> 1971-72(ish) to 1984-85
ECAC North/South -> 1985-86 to 1991-92
ECAC North/South/Central -> 1992-93 to 1997-98
ECAC Northeast -> 1998-99 to today

So I think there are basically just two master leagues which renamed/rebranded themselves several times over the years.

Over that timeline, there were a couple of mass exoduses. The SUNY teams left the ECAC to rebrand themselves primarily as SUNYAC, but I don't know when that was. The MAAC teams left in 1998-99. I don't yet know when the NESCAC teams left to rebrand themselves primarily as NESCAC. Those dates are hard to pin down because teams can be part of multiple conferences, so, for example, the SUNY teams were part of SUNYAC even while they were part of ECAC East/West.

I am also still confused as to when D3 started. I have several sources from the early 70s, but they appear to be contradictory. My 1972-73 ECAC Media Guide shows a small Division 3 in 1971-72, one team that I remember was Worcester State, maybe also Babson. My NCAA hockey guide shows the same thing. I don't have a ECAC guide for 1973-74, but my NCAA guide shows only Division 2 teams for 1972-73, with teams like Worcester State and Babson back in Division 2. Then in 1973-74 they are back in D3.

Can anyone help with that info?

The last year the SUNY Schools participated in an ECAC league was 91-92. They began exclusive SUNYAC play in 92-93.

To be more specific, here's how I would describe it:



ECAC D2 1965/66 - 1976/77

*ECAC West 1977/78 - present

-SUNYAC 1992/93 - present​

*ECAC East 1977/78 - present

-NESCAC 1999/00 - present​

ECAC D3 1971/72 - 1984/85

*ECAC North 1984/85 - 1991/92
*ECAC South 1984/85 - 1991/92

+ECAC North 1992/93 - 1997/98
+ECAC South 1992/93 - 1997/98
+ECAC Central 1992/93 - 1997/98

++ECAC Northeast 1998/99 - present

-MASCAC 2009/10 - present​

Legend:
*: Result of a division in the ECAC "master league" listed above
+: Result of a reorganization of the "*" leagues listed above
++: Result of a combining of the "+" leagues listed above
-: Multisport conference whose member broke away from the conference listed immediately above

(Although Salem State came from the ECAC-E, it is easier to descrive the MASCAC as breaking away from the ECAC-NE because all the other teams came from there)


This is all, of course, a gross over simplification. Within these ECAC leagues, many teams moved around throughout the years, especially between the North/South/Central/Northeast and the ECAC-E. Conference alignment in DII/III hockey has always been chaotic in the East (seems stable enough to me out West) And with the Northeast and its related conferences, there was so much movement and realignment that it's difficult to list them as separate conferences in this fashion!

 

[Ralph Slate]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

I hesitate at describing them as completely separate leagues because the ECAC guides, throughout the 90's, listed the East/West(/SUNYAC) teams together and the North/South(/Central) teams together. Even the standings were listed together, all in the same table, with separate conferences. It does not appear that these conferences were viewed as completely separate leagues even though they had separate conference schedules and championships.

I find it hard to consider a conference like ECAC-West a separate and independent league when they played just 6 conference games in 1999-00. The member teams spent most of their time playing NESCAC and SUNYAC teams, in fact, Hobart played 6 ECAC-West games and 10 games against SUNYAC teams.

Maybe someone familiar with Williams College can help clear this up -- when Williams shifted from ECAC West to ECAC East in the early 80's, was this a big deal? Was it done due for geographical/scheduling reasons or ideological reasons (such as to change the quality of play, or to abide by some different rules)? If it was the former, then I see East/West as merely a geographical grouping within a larger league rather than a separate independent "league".

 

[93GreatLaker]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

I hesitate at describing them as completely separate leagues because the ECAC guides, throughout the 90's, listed the East/West(/SUNYAC) teams together and the North/South(/Central) teams together. Even the standings were listed together, all in the same table, with separate conferences. It does not appear that these conferences were viewed as completely separate leagues even though they had separate conference schedules and championships.

I find it hard to consider a conference like ECAC-West a separate and independent league when they played just 6 conference games in 1999-00. The member teams spent most of their time playing NESCAC and SUNYAC teams, in fact, Hobart played 6 ECAC-West games and 10 games against SUNYAC teams.

Maybe someone familiar with Williams College can help clear this up -- when Williams shifted from ECAC West to ECAC East in the early 80's, was this a big deal? Was it done due for geographical/scheduling reasons or ideological reasons (such as to change the quality of play, or to abide by some different rules)? If it was the former, then I see East/West as merely a geographical grouping within a larger league rather than a separate independent "league".

Speaking only from a personal perspective, as a member of a Oswego's team in the late 80's/early 90's we were a member of the SUNYAC. The ECAC to us was kind of like a regional affiliation, that a bunch of teams from the area were a part of much like we were all a part of the NCAA. We always played our season with special attention to SUNY games and the ECAC was only an afterthought, if we were eliminated from our conference tourney. It was another vehicle for a team to make it to the NCAA's should they lose in SUNYAC's (though I am not sure the ECAC W winner had an automatic bid).

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

I hesitate at describing them as completely separate leagues because the ECAC guides, throughout the 90's, listed the East/West(/SUNYAC) teams together and the North/South(/Central) teams together. Even the standings were listed together, all in the same table, with separate conferences. It does not appear that these conferences were viewed as completely separate leagues even though they had separate conference schedules and championships.

I find it hard to consider a conference like ECAC-West a separate and independent league when they played just 6 conference games in 1999-00. The member teams spent most of their time playing NESCAC and SUNYAC teams, in fact, Hobart played 6 ECAC-West games and 10 games against SUNYAC teams.

Maybe someone familiar with Williams College can help clear this up -- when Williams shifted from ECAC West to ECAC East in the early 80's, was this a big deal? Was it done due for geographical/scheduling reasons or ideological reasons (such as to change the quality of play, or to abide by some different rules)? If it was the former, then I see East/West as merely a geographical grouping within a larger league rather than a separate independent "league".

Would you describe them as such today? Certainly not. They are completely separate conferences, under the ECAC umbrella. In fact, with the current issue regarding the stability of the ECAC-West as a 5-team conference, an ECAC representative has even been qouted as saying that the ECAC is powerless to force any kind of reorganization of the 3 men's leagues. It's up to the individual conference members to decide what conference they are in, and who is admissible to their conference.

I view the larger ECAC body through a similar lens as the NCAA itself... the couldn't care less about hockey. They don't even officially sponsor DI Hockey anymore (but allow the ECACHL to continue to use the moniker). So of COURSE they'd be to lazy and cheap to print separate conference standings for their media guides!

As for the case of Hobart, You are talking about a conference that has struggled with small membership since the departure of the SUNYAC Schools, and the season you pick immediately follows the loss of both Mercyhurst and Niagara, so of course they were still adjusting. They were a 4-team conference that year, as this was before the creation of a hockey program at Utica, and during that tiem Neumann was content to compete as an Independant. Unlike DI, DIII hockey has never featured 4-game series against conference opponents in the regular season. Sorry if we do things differently for you


That was also the first year that the NESCACs were a separate conference. They've enjoyed an interlocking schedule, playing every team in both conferences once and having games count in conference standings, since that division? Are you going to tell me that they are still one conference, despite conducting totally separate conference tournaments? If so, you clearly do not get the concept of a conference in DIII Hockey

 

[WIT SID]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

I hesitate at describing them as completely separate leagues because the ECAC guides, throughout the 90's, listed the East/West(/SUNYAC) teams together and the North/South(/Central) teams together. Even the standings were listed together, all in the same table, with separate conferences. It does not appear that these conferences were viewed as completely separate leagues even though they had separate conference schedules and championships.

When it was the North/Central/South, teams played a double round robin within their own grouping. The three champions (North, Central, and South) earned a spot in the eight-team ECAC North/Central/South Tournament (and were seeded 1-2-3), with the other five schools being selected by a committee - essentially with overall record as being the first seeding criteria.

 

[d3follower]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

. .
Maybe someone familiar with Williams College can help clear this up -- when Williams shifted from ECAC West to ECAC East in the early 80's, was this a big deal? Was it done due for geographical/scheduling reasons or ideological reasons (such as to change the quality of play, or to abide by some different rules)? If it was the former, then I see East/West as merely a geographical grouping within a larger league rather than a separate independent "league".

My sense is that some of the ECAC West members were members of the ECAC West for only a short time period - from 1978/79 to some date relatively early in the 1980s. Bowdoin's post-season records show games against both North Adams State and Norwich in the ECAC play-offs for 1986 so they were both in the east by that date (if not earlier). My guess is that most of the western-most New England teams (Norwich, Middlebury, Williams, North Adams) moved to the ECAC East fairly quickly.

Post-script: On the Merrimack website, I discovered that Merrimack played Norwich in the "ECAC II East" play-offs in 1984 so that shortens the time frame even more during which Norwich was a member of the ECAC West . . . .

 

[Ralph Slate]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Norwich was part of ECAC-West from 1976-77 until around 1983-84 (I don't have records yet from 1981-82 or 1982-83, but by 1983-84 they were in the East).

 

[scoopnroll]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

All the teams were eligible the issue was mainly schools like Middlebury and Williams ran into problems with exams where the school did not want them to play in the ECAC East Conference playoffs and often bailed out of the ECAC East playoffs hoping for an autobid into the NCAA.

I'll have to check that. You raise an interesting point, looking at the playoffs. It may not be possible though, because my understanding is that the playoff situation was completely convoluted (and maybe still is?), since some schools were not eligible for tournament play, maybe because they were D2 schools "playing down".

Conferences also have meaning due to games among members counting toward the conference standings. I'd have to go through the schedules from the 80's and 90's to see how that worked.

I did find this nugget at Kurt Stutt's excellent College Hockey Historical Archives:

 

[scoopnroll]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

In regards to the SUNYAC although the schools were in fact members of the ECAC West starting in the 84-85 season began having a SUNYAC Conference Tournament where the teams would play for a title prior to the ECAC West tournament. Complete history is online on their website.

I hesitate at describing them as completely separate leagues because the ECAC guides, throughout the 90's, listed the East/West(/SUNYAC) teams together and the North/South(/Central) teams together. Even the standings were listed together, all in the same table, with separate conferences. It does not appear that these conferences were viewed as completely separate leagues even though they had separate conference schedules and championships.

I find it hard to consider a conference like ECAC-West a separate and independent league when they played just 6 conference games in 1999-00. The member teams spent most of their time playing NESCAC and SUNYAC teams, in fact, Hobart played 6 ECAC-West games and 10 games against SUNYAC teams.

Maybe someone familiar with Williams College can help clear this up -- when Williams shifted from ECAC West to ECAC East in the early 80's, was this a big deal? Was it done due for geographical/scheduling reasons or ideological reasons (such as to change the quality of play, or to abide by some different rules)? If it was the former, then I see East/West as merely a geographical grouping within a larger league rather than a separate independent "league".

 

[Ralph Slate]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

As a followup to this thread, I have finished entering the information for what I consider to be the two main D2/D3 ECAC leagues from the early 70's to present:

East/West lineage:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/336.html

Northeast lineage:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/339.html

Does anyone have access to ECAC media guides from 1983-84, 1982-83, or 1973-74? The seasons covered in those guides are the only seasons I'm missing.

I have not yet figured out what to do with 2009-10, with the St. Michael's/Saint Anselm dual-conference situation.

Thanks,

Ralph

 

[Birdwatcher]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

As a followup to this thread, I have finished entering the information for what I consider to be the two main D2/D3 ECAC leagues from the early 70's to present:

East/West lineage:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/336.html

Northeast lineage:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/339.html

Does anyone have access to ECAC media guides from 1983-84, 1982-83, or 1973-74? The seasons covered in those guides are the only seasons I'm missing.


Thanks,

Ralph

Your ECAC West from 1985 forward to 1992 does not include SUNY teams. Plattsburgh won the ECAC West tourney in 1986 and their last year in the tourney 1n 1992. They may have won it other years as well.
I have not yet figured out what to do with 2009-10, with the St. Michael's/Saint Anselm dual-conference situation.

 

[norm1909]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Your ECAC West from 1985 forward to 1992 does not include SUNY teams. Plattsburgh won the ECAC West tourney in 1986 and their last year in the tourney 1n 1992. They may have won it other years as well.

The Plattsburgh State 2008-09 Media Guide can be found here for reference - I don't believe the produced (or posted) a 2009-10 version.

Particularly "All-Time Results" starting on page 36 (PDF 38/56).

 

[scoopnroll]

Re: ECAC D2/D3 history question

Question I have is that I believe back in the early 90's were D1 and D2 teams eligible for the NCAA Div. 2/3 Championship. I want to say yes because Mercyhurst went to the NCAA's back in 90-91. Then somewhere in the Mid 90's a true DII was established as it became the UAH and Bemidji Show just about every year.