What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

ECAC - COVID Edition

Maybe you should stop listening to MSNBC/CNN. They don't like free thinking Republican governors. Or anyone thinking on their own. As of today, South Dakota has a death rate of 928 per million. The states with the most restrictive lockdown policies? Much worse. New York and emperor Cuomo come in at 1,763 per million. New Jersey is at 1,903 per million. Mass at 1,528 per million. Connecticut 1,366 per million. I could go on an on. What color are those states? Why is the media creating a false narrative? Figure it out.

I should have been clearer. The stories I saw referred to the death rate over the last week or two as opposed to overall. And, of course, I’d expect more densely populated states with larger, close-quartered cities to have higher rates than the Dakotas.
 
I should have been clearer. The stories I saw referred to the death rate over the last week or two as opposed to overall. And, of course, I’d expect more densely populated states with larger, close-quartered cities to have higher rates than the Dakotas.

That could be true. I don't know - but a small snapshot like that could be misleading. However, their case rate just plummeted the last few days.
 
That could be true. I don't know - but a small snapshot like that could be misleading. However, their case rate just plummeted the last few days.

And you just keep watching Fox News and listening to Russian bots on Twitter and Facebook. Any legitimate government's number one priority is to protect its' citizens. Forcing idiots who think their "feedums" are more important than the greater good to wear a mask or socially distance themselves is called responsible government. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one". Not our fault you're too brainwashed to see it. But hey, you keep being you...
 
Did Quinnipiac have a positive or did Connecticut shut down all hockey?I hear the prep schools were shut down and wondered if it extended to Colleges. Can you imagine spending all that money on prep school and not getting any hockey out of it? Just a crazy year.
 
And you just keep watching Fox News and listening to Russian bots on Twitter and Facebook. Any legitimate government's number one priority is to protect its' citizens. Forcing idiots who think their "feedums" are more important than the greater good to wear a mask or socially distance themselves is called responsible government. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one". Not our fault you're too brainwashed to see it. But hey, you keep being you...

Ok. You can quote Spock for your support. I will fall back on Benjamin Franklin who said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." You can join the collective. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." I believe that our government's number one priority is to protect its citizen's freedom. If you believe its safety then there is no end to the limitations that can be imposed until we rid the world of death. You keep being you.
 
Ok. You can quote Spock for your support. I will fall back on Benjamin Franklin who said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." You can join the collective. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." I believe that our government's number one priority is to protect its citizen's freedom. If you believe its safety then there is no end to the limitations that can be imposed until we rid the world of death. You keep being you.

So to start matters, Franklin was writing not as a subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands notionally under his jurisdiction. In other words, the “essential liberty” to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a legislature in the interests of collective security.
 
So to start matters, Franklin was writing not as a subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands notionally under his jurisdiction. In other words, the “essential liberty” to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a legislature in the interests of collective security.

Yes - but the quote is not quite as powerful when you put into its correct context!

Also - Sacred Heart postponed their games against Colgate for this coming weekend. Looks like Colgate and Clarkson may play. At least the schools have shown a lot of flexibility in scheduling around outbreaks.
 
Princeton announced that all students are coming back to campus for the spring semester. Any chance that affects their decisions on sports? They could still get up to speed and play hockey. They have a couple of slightly better than average players.
 
That's really interesting that Princeton thinks it is safe to bring back kids for the Spring Semester when every state is Covid red except for West Virginia and Maine.

I wonder what Ben Franklin would say?
 
That's really interesting that Princeton thinks it is safe to bring back kids for the Spring Semester when every state is Covid red except for West Virginia and Maine.

I wonder what Ben Franklin would say?

He’d say it’s about time Princeton grew a pair.
 
ECAC tweeted that it is making an announcement at 3pm. Season cancelled? Some teams coming back? Anyone have any intel?
 
Sure - those sheep can sit home all season. Ivies can sit in their ivory towers quivering in fear while all their good men's players transfer. These teams will adjust the schedule and keep on playing. Getting covid means little to this age group. Grandma is not at the rink. Get it and get it over with and you don't have to get the vaccine.

Rightnut....... actually, the most recent research and analysis on sports related spread is showing hockey to be the riskiest of all of the indoor sports. As I've stated in other threads previously, with 40% being asymptomatic, and the vast majority of players in youth and high school level not being required to test two and three times a week the way the NCAA protocols require, we'll never truly know the degree of infection and spread that is directly associated with in game/practice activity.

I am the father of a 13 yr old here in Minnesota and, we are in week three of a current four week pause on all youth, high school, and adult sports. With the likelihood that governor Walz will extend that through at least Jan. 1st, and possibly into mid or late January. I also make my living directly off of this great game so, it's also been challenging for me personally too. However, I also believe that in this specific situation, given these specific circumstances, if health and science experts like Fauci and Osterholm say that not playing/practicing youth, high school, and adult athletics (when consistent, weekly testing isn't an option) is the proper thing to do to limit/reduce community spread, and in turn reduce the stress on our health care systems, especially the doctors, nurses, and others on the front lines, then I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

Would it be nice if the federal government got off their azzes and passed another Covid relief bill? It sure would be. Regardless, please read the following articles about the various spreading scenarios and you can draw your own conclusions about how big of an issue infections at the rinks has become.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...ion-outbreaks/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/youth-hock...ry?id=74232730

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mor...cid=uxbndlbing

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucele...h=17b626177f9b

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thund...ckey-1.5782407

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mor...ks/ar-BB1a5JRT

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavi...ame-the-adults

https://www.nj.com/highschoolsports/...us-battle.html

https://www.wral.com/coronavirus/two...ases/19319331/

https://www.tsn.ca/new-covid-19-rest...eams-1.1534706
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/ohl-season-schedule-coronavirus-pandemic-1.5675087

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/c ... -1.5786399

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/20/us/ve...rnd/index.html

https://www.fosters.com/story/news/...n-youth-program-at-rinks-at-exeter/114252578/

https://calgaryherald.com/news/thous...-for-two-weeks

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/h...ovid-outbreaks

://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2020/10/12/hundreds-of-potential-coronavirus-quarantines-around-alaska-in-the-wake-of-youth-hockey-tournament/
 
Net Presence- I appreciate that research and am aware of those articles and that theory. I am not debating youth hockey. That is much less regulated and tested. Could youth hockey cause spreading- it’s plausible. Has it been proven- not yet.

My point is that college hockey is eminently doable. It is in fact happening. Colgate has played 6 games without incident. There have been no instances of teams infecting each other. There are no fans, no parents, no grandmas at the games. There is likely herd immunity on most teams already. When there is a covid event, schedules can be adjusted. Is it anyone’s belief that these players are safer at home partying with their peers rather than in a highly regulated and tested team environment?
 
My point is that college hockey is eminently doable. It is in fact happening. Colgate has played 6 games without incident.

Which makes them the exception, not the rule. Almost half of the WCHA series scheduled have been postponed.

There have been no instances of teams infecting each other.

Wisconsin/Ohio State

There are no fans, no parents, no grandmas at the games. There is likely herd immunity on most teams already. When there is a covid event, schedules can be adjusted.

I don't think you actually understand the concept of herd immunity. It is not a useful way to think about transmission between individuals in a small group that has lots of close interaction. Herd immunity is a situation in which the spread of a disease is arrested because a sufficiently high percentage of a total population has immunity, so it becomes difficult to transmit between random individuals interacting. A hockey team is not large enough to constitute a meaningful population, and there is nothing random about the interactions. If one teammate has the disease, and another is not immune, the relative proportions of the population that has immunity is irrelevant.

Unless you're going to argue that players should have zero contact with their families over the holidays, parents and grandmas are effectively at the games.

Is it anyone’s belief that these players are safer at home partying with their peers rather than in a highly regulated and tested team environment?

If they have "herd immunity" in the way you think, why would this matter? You're running out arguments without any awareness that they contradict each other.
 
Which makes them the exception, not the rule. Almost half of the WCHA series scheduled have been postponed.

Yes. Games will be postponed and rescheduled. I said that.

Wisconsin/Ohio State

Where is the evidence that they infected each other rather than getting infected from their respective student populations? I have not seen any.

I don't think you actually understand the concept of herd immunity. It is not a useful way to think about transmission between individuals in a small group that has lots of close interaction. Herd immunity is a situation in which the spread of a disease is arrested because a sufficiently high percentage of a total population has immunity, so it becomes difficult to transmit between random individuals interacting. A hockey team is not large enough to constitute a meaningful population, and there is nothing random about the interactions. If one teammate has the disease, and another is not immune, the relative proportions of the population that has immunity is irrelevant.
True. You are correct on this argument relative to an individual on the team. However it is unlikely to knock out an entire team. That is the point. Not saying that no one could get it.

Unless you're going to argue that players should have zero contact with their families over the holidays, parents and grandmas are effectively at the games.

No, parents and grandma are not effectively at the games. If the players are tested 3 times a week, they know who is infected and who is not. You ignore the testing factor. Players can be tested before they go home. They are not tested 3 times a week when they are home. Parents and Grandma are effectively at the parties when the players are at home


If they have "herd immunity" in the way you think, why would this matter? You're running out arguments without any awareness that they contradict each other.[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:
Which makes them the exception, not the rule. Almost half of the WCHA series scheduled have been postponed.

Yes. Games will be postponed and rescheduled. I said that.

Wisconsin/Ohio State

Where is the evidence that they infected each other rather than getting infected from their respective student populations? I have not seen any.

I don't think you actually understand the concept of herd immunity. It is not a useful way to think about transmission between individuals in a small group that has lots of close interaction. Herd immunity is a situation in which the spread of a disease is arrested because a sufficiently high percentage of a total population has immunity, so it becomes difficult to transmit between random individuals interacting. A hockey team is not large enough to constitute a meaningful population, and there is nothing random about the interactions. If one teammate has the disease, and another is not immune, the relative proportions of the population that has immunity is irrelevant.
True. You are correct on this argument relative to an individual on the team. However it is unlikely to knock out an entire team. That is the point. Not saying that no one could get it.

Unless you're going to argue that players should have zero contact with their families over the holidays, parents and grandmas are effectively at the games.

No, parents and grandma are not effectively at the games. If the players are tested 3 times a week, they know who is infected and who is not. You ignore the testing factor. Players can be tested before they go home. They are not tested 3 times a week when they are home. Parents and Grandma are effectively at the parties when the players are at home


If they have "herd immunity" in the way you think, why would this matter? You're running out arguments without any awareness that they contradict each other.
[/QUOTE]

Rightnut...it has knocked out entire teams. NMU being the most recent example. Also, if you have actually read the articles I linked -- yes, it's a lot of reading but, I chose to link all of those to show that player to player transmission associated specifically with games and/or practices isn't a theory or belief with just a few examples -- you would see that, due to the unique nature of the playing surface (cold, dry air and boards/glass surrounding it's entirety, along with it causing significant exhalation to play) this sport is far and away the riskiest of all. There absolutely is definitive evidence that player to player transmission has occurred. Period. End of story.

Now, IF, repeat IF, the players, coaches, and officials can be tested 2-3 times per week, and players who test positive are properly removed from the team setting and quarantined, there is a possibility that we can play somewhat safely. However, there is legitimate evidence and concern regarding the incidence of post-infection myocarditis and lung scarring in athletes. Especially since those are being found in even asymptomatic individuals. I've been debating this specific issue with Chuck Murray, Jeb, and others over in the Hockey East thread and in the Cafe's Covid thread. It's a lot to absorb but, I urge you to actually read everything and I'd be interested in what you think. Here's Part 1...

Chuck....I'm sorry you ended up with a headache today. I really am. However, I doubt I was the cause. Also, I'm pretty confident I haven't posted anything that would come close to getting myself banned. But, I do appreciate your concern...Here's "Part 1" of my response... :)

As for the prevalence of myocarditis and lung-scarring in post-Covid infected athletes, allow me to provide some evidence that supports my concerns.

First is an article from MEDPAGE TODAY that analyzes the potential long and short-term effects of myocarditis. Both in athletes and non-athletes. Here's the link:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti.../covid19/88487

From the article: "One study found myocarditis in 15% of college athletes who tested positive, largely after mild or no symptoms."

"Myocarditis is the top concern around COVID-19 for college athletics, due to the risk it poses for cardiac arrhythmia and sudden cardiac death."
"Newly released European Society of Cardiology guidelines suggested that people with myocarditis should hold off on vigorous exercise likely for 3 to 6 months."

Next, here's a link to a Forbes article...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuac...h=2afa331b2be0

From the article... "Earlier this week the Washington Post featured an article on Covid-19 survivors in Bergamo, Italy, 50% of whom say they still haven’t fully recovered. Doctors interviewed in Bergamo discussed a follow-up study they conducted this summer of long-term patients. Among 750 patients screened, about 30% still have lung scarring and breathing trouble. Another 30% have problems of inflammation and clotting, including heart abnormalities and artery blockages."

"Preliminary, and as yet unpublished, data revealed that in the U.S. approximately 15% of a sample of college athletes who contracted the coronavirus - most of whom had experienced mild or no symptoms - were diagnosed with myocarditis. Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart caused by a viral infection, such as the coronavirus, that can lead to rapid or abnormal heart rhythms and even sudden cardiac death."

Here's another article from "The Conversation" (from Nov. 4th)...

https://theconversation.com/even-if-...to-know-149243

From the article... "New research now shows that even young people with COVID-19 who are asymptomatic are at risk for developing potentially dangerous inflammation around the heart. I am an imaging cardiologist who is developing diagnostic techniques to assess changes in heart muscle function in patients with COVID-19. In a study released Nov. 4, my colleagues and I found evidence of heart abnormalities in over one-third of student athletes who tested positive for COVID-19 and underwent cardiac screening at West Virginia University this fall. While we didn’t detect ongoing damage to the heart muscle itself, we frequently found evidence of inflammation and excess fluid in the pericardium, the sac around the heart. Almost all of the 54 students tested had either mild COVID-19 or were asymptomatic."

To help them develop standards, I and other cardiologists from the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia reviewed the current evidence and wrote an expert consensus statement. A similar statement focused on myocarditis was published by some of the same doctors in JAMA Cardiology.

We suggest the following:
  • Any student athlete testing positive for COVID-19 should follow quarantine rules and avoid exposing their teammates, coaches or anyone else to the virus.
  • Before returning to play, athletes who test positive for COVID-19 should consult with their physicians to determine if heart screening tests are needed. Although routine testing is not recommended for all asymptomatic individuals, a physician should determine on an individual basis when the risks are high enough.
  • If an athlete has active myocarditis, we recommend no competition or strenuous training for three to six months, with follow-up exams with a cardiologist. Exercise can worsen the disease’s progression and create arrhythmias, or irregular heartbeat. After that period, the athlete can gradually resume exercise and play if he or she has no lingering inflammation or arrhythmia.
  • If an athlete has active features of pericarditis, we also recommend restricting exercise, since it can exacerbate inflammation or cause inflammation to return. Athletes should avoid competitive sports during the acute phase. Once tests show no inflammation or excess fluid, the athlete should be able to return to play.
 
Here's Part 2....

Here's a link to an article from the "Scientific American"...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-any-symptoms/

From the article... From an offensive lineman at Indiana University dealing with possible heart issues to a University of Houston player opting out of the season because of “complications with my heart,” the news has been coming fast and furiously. More than a dozen athletes at Power Five conference schools have been identified as having myocardial injury following coronavirus infection, according to ESPN; two of the conferences—the Big Ten and the Pac-12—already have announced they are postponing all competitive sports until 2021. And in Major League Baseball, Boston Red Sox ace pitcher Eduardo Rodriguez told reporters that he felt “100 years old” as a result of his bout with COVID, and of MLB’s shortened season because of myocarditis—an inflammation of the heart muscle, often triggered by a virus. Said Rodriguez: “That’s [the heart is] the most important part of your body, so when you hear that … I was kind of scared a little. Now that I know what it is, it’s still scary.”

Why are these athletes (and their leagues and conferences) taking such extreme precautions? It’s because of the stakes. Though it often resolves without incident, myocarditis can lead to severe complications such as abnormal heart rhythms, chronic heart failure and even sudden death. Just a few weeks ago, a former Florida State basketball player, Michael Ojo, died of suspected heart complications just after recovering from a bout of COVID-19 in Serbia, where he was playing pro ball.

Here’s the background: Myocarditis appears to result from the direct infection of the virus attacking the heart, or possibly as a consequence of the inflammation triggered by the body’s overly aggressive immune response. And it is not age-specific: In The Lancet, doctors recently reported on an 11-year-old child with multisystem inflammatory syndrome (MIS-C)—a rare illness—who died of myocarditis and heart failure. At autopsy, pathologists were able to identify coronavirus particles present in the child’s cardiac tissue, helping to explain the virus’ direct involvement in her death. In fact, researchers are reporting the presence of viral protein in the actual heart muscle, of six deceased patients. Of note is the fact that these patients were documented to have died of lung failure, having had neither clinical signs of heart involvement, nor a prior history of cardiac disease.

Samuel called it “extremely dangerous” for athletes diagnosed with myocarditis to play competitive sports for at least three to six months, because of the risk of serious arrhythmia or sudden death, and several athletes already have made the decision to heed those dire warnings. We’ll likely see more such decisions in the very near future, as each sport enters its peak season.

Here's the last paragraph from the article for those like Chuck and Jeb who are constantly trying to say that masks, social distancing, and avoiding large gatherings is THE best way to prevent catching the virus...

"And for the rest of us? Wear a mask, social distance, avoid large gatherings, and spend more time in the great outdoors. I would echo the advice of J.N.: “Be careful. Just don’t get the virus in the beginning.” As of today, it’s still the best defense we’ve got...

To close, let's play this out under the current thought that between 10 and 15% of all collegiate athletes who contract Covid (many who're asymptomatic) develop some form of myocarditis. Approximately 480,000 athletes play at all levels of the NCAA (from the NCAA website). At the moment, Scott Gottlieb is estimating that by the end of this year approximately 30% of the U.S. population will have been infected. So, 30% of the 480,000 NCAA athletes is approximately 144,000. And, if even 10% of those who’ve contracted Covid have been also been diagnosed with some level of myocarditis, that’s a total of approximately 14,400 athletes who have likely developed some level of post-Covid infection myocarditis…
Above, you asked me… “On a serious note ... are you saying that a small handful of cases of myocarditis among tens of thousands of NCAA athletes is in any way comparable to the situation (some would say "epidemic") of NCAA athletes with concussions/head injuries, which have even more significant/extensive adverse outcomes than those who suffer from myocarditis (regardless of causation)?”
I’ll finish by answering your question with a question… Are you really going to try and argue that 14,400 meets the definition of “a small handful of cases of myocarditis?” If so, I think you’ll find you’ll be standing alone on that island.
 
Rightnut...it has knocked out entire teams. NMU being the most recent example.
So they can go back to playing. If they have all had it they are good to go. They all got tested, did the post Covid heart testing and all passed. I know people on that team.

Also, if you have actually read the articles I linked -- yes, it's a lot of reading but, I chose to link all of those to show that player to player transmission associated specifically with games and/or practices isn't a theory or belief with just a few examples -- you would see that, due to the unique nature of the playing surface (cold, dry air and boards/glass surrounding it's entirety, along with it causing significant exhalation to play) this sport is far and away the riskiest of all. So hockey is far and away riskier than say - wrestling? Is there any definitive evidence of any college hockey teams infecting the other team. I have not seen any stories on that. I have been playing men's league hockey continuously through this on two different teams at different rinks and there has not been one instance of players passing it on to each other or other teams. Have guys gotten it- yes. But not from hockey. Is there that risk? Of course. There is also a risk in going to the store. There absolutely is definitive evidence that player to player transmission has occurred. Period. End of story.

Now, IF, repeat IF, the players, coaches, and officials can be tested 2-3 times per week, and players who test positive are properly removed from the team setting and quarantined, there is a possibility that we can play somewhat safely. Which is what they are doing. However, there is legitimate evidence and concern regarding the incidence of post-infection myocarditis and lung scarring in athletes. So they won't get post infection myocarditis or scarring if they catch Covid at home at a house party? Especially since those are being found in even asymptomatic individuals. I've been debating this specific issue with Chuck Murray, Jeb, and others over in the Hockey East thread and in the Cafe's Covid thread. It's a lot to absorb but, I urge you to actually read everything and I'd be interested in what you think. Here's Part 1...
 
Back
Top