Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

[joecct]

Picking up from the LVC thread, I want to expand on Card's comments but the LVC thread is not the place..

The ECAC-W will likely lose Pool B after this next season. They were going to lose it anyway, but this pretty much sealed the deal. If they were struggling to find 1 more team, they most definitely will not be able to find 2 teams in time. If this season had been without Pool B (which it would have been if the MASCAC hadn't formed), the ECAC-W would have 0 teams in the tournament... which I believe would have been a first. correct me if I'm wrong...

ECAC-W just got hosed by the LVC admins.

Pool B has at least one more year to run until the MASCAC gets the AQ. SOMEBODY has to get that slot for 10/11 and it is still between the West and the MASCAC.

Now lets look at some timelines
2010/11 - the Interlock ends. D-II schools are asked to leave the ECAC-E.
ECAC-E (8) AQ
MASCAC (7) Pool B
NESCAC (10) AQ
ECAC-NE (8) AQ
ECAC-W (5) Pool B
SUNYAC (9) AQ

Pool B is still between the ECAC-W and MASCAC

Now things get interesting
2011/12 -- Do the two Little East teams in the ECAC-E bolt for the MASCAC and join their fellow Little Easters?? If so, we now have:
ECAC-E (6) Pool B
MASCAC (9) AQ
NESCAC (10) AQ
ECAC-NE (8) AQ
ECAC-W (5) Pool B
SUNYAC (9) AQ

Pool B is now between the ECAC-W and the ECAC-E

Do the East and West want to gamble on none of their schools getting invited to the tournament?? Other than finding a school or two to get to 7 members, they are sitting on thin ice gambling on a Pool B.

What would you do? If you're talking expansion, the following rules apply:
Current Little East and MASCAC schools without a program--> MASCAC
Geographic proximity is the key to any conference
You cannot bust up an existing multi-sport conference (SUNYAC, NESCAC and maybe the MASCAC).

If you're going to talk expansion, please keep to existing NCAA D-III schools. Yes Canton is out there, but they are in the NAIA.

Have at it.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Picking up from the LVC thread, I want to expand on Card's comments but the LVC thread is not the place..

Pool B has at least one more year to run until the MASCAC gets the AQ. SOMEBODY has to get that slot for 10/11 and it is still between the West and the MASCAC.

Now lets look at some timelines
2010/11 - the Interlock ends. D-II schools are asked to leave the ECAC-E.
ECAC-E (8) AQ

Now things get interesting
2011/12 -- Do the two Little East teams in the ECAC-E bolt for the MASCAC and join their fellow Little Easters?? If so, we now have:
ECAC-E (6) Pool B

Just a slight correction:
Actually, the Interlock won't end until 2011/2012, but will still likely result in the DIIs leaving. Even if they stayed, DII schools don't count towards the 7 needed for an AQ. But we could likely see the East go from 10 to 6 in ONE offseason

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Just a slight correction:
Actually, the Interlock won't end until 2011/2012, but will still likely result in the DIIs leaving. Even if they stayed, DII schools don't count towards the 7 needed for an AQ. But we could likely see the East go from 10 to 6 in ONE offseason

Two things to be noted here:

1. There has not been a vote to end the Interlock. If that doesn't happen that line of thought goes nowhere

2. The departure of the Little East schools if the interlock ended is not a certainty - USM and UMB were asked to join the MASCAC, and didn't for this year. Why would they go now?

3. Even if 1 and 2 happened, it's more likely that the East would pick up Manhattanville to get back to 7 than anything else. Manhattanville applied for the Salem State spot, but league rules about travel partners made UNE the choice. It is also possible that one or more of Wentworth/Curry could leave the NE for the East.

4. I don't see much good happening for the ECAC W they could easily be back to 4 members like the old days of Hobart, Elmira, RIT, and Mercyhurst.

 

[Artie12]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

How bout this?

Castleton, Norwich, and Skidmore go to the west to make an 8 team league.
Babson, Mass-Boston and Southern Maine go to MASCAC to make a 10 team league.
NEC and UNE to the Northeast to make a 10 team league.

That would leave us with.

West
Castleton
Elmira
Hobart
Manhattanville
Neumann
Norwich
Skidmore
Utica
*Play everyone twice

MASCAC
Babson
Fitchburg
Framingham
Plymouth
Salem
Southern ME
Umass-B
Umass-D
Westfield
Worcester
*Play everyone twice

Northeast
Becker
Curry
Johnson and Wales
NEC
Nichols
Salve
Suffolk
UNE
Wentworth
WNEC
*Play everyone twice

All conferences would have an autobid and pool C bids would remain at 3. I know some of these teams may not fit perfectly with the other schools, namely Babson, but I'm just trying to find a spot for everyone.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Artie, Babson fits better in the NE, but that's not likely to happen.

People have talked about realignment for years, but my feeling is that nothing major except further withering of the ECAC W is likely to happen.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

3. Even if 1 and 2 happened, it's more likely that the East would pick up Manhattanville to get back to 7 than anything else. Manhattanville applied for the Salem State spot, but league rules about travel partners made UNE the choice. It is also possible that one or more of Wentworth/Curry could leave the NE for the East.

If USM left, Curry would most likely fit in.

Going with travel partners, you could see:

Norwich Castleton
Babson New England Coll.
Southern Maine/UMB Univ. New England
Skidmore Manhattanville

If USM or UMB goes, place Curry in that spot.

That would leave all leagues with an A still having one (MASCAC AQ in play).
The pool B goes, but the West still has Pool C available.

 

[hockeyfan77]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

USM is not joining the MASCAC...It would just set the program back and makes little sense for them: especially since UNE joined the ECAC EAST and gives them a great travel partner for the future...

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

2. The departure of the Little East schools if the interlock ended is not a certainty - USM and UMB were asked to join the MASCAC, and didn't for this year. Why would they go now?

My speculation (and that of others on this board) is that the Little East Schools were simply waiting for the MASCAC AQ. Once the 2 years is up, they will jump ship so they can compete for the National tournament Bid.


Now, for the purpose of continuing the conversation, I will bring up a post I made on the LVC thread. These two options are not likely by any means, but are realistic options for making AQs available to all ECAC teams in the absence of Pool B as a possibility.

Here's my suggestion for restructuring. It'll never happen, but it's a valid suggestion:

ECAC-E dumps the D-II teams. It's bad for College Hockey as a whole, but it's a good thing for the ECAC teams.

The Eact and the Northeast each give the one school geographically located closest to the ECAC-W (Skidmore and Western NE). This results in an even distribution of 7 teams in each of the 3 leagues (for a total of 21). 6 opponents, 3 times each, results in a uniform 18-game conference schedule.

This would look thusly:

[B][U]West[/U][/B]		[B][U]East[/U][/B]		[B][U]Northeast[/U][/B]
Elmira		Babson		Becker
Hobart		Castleton	Curry
Mahattanville	NEC		J&W
Neumann		Norwich		Nichols
Skidmore	Southern Maine	Salve Regina
Utica		UMB		Suffolk
Western NE	UNE		Wentworth

Now, if/when the Little East Schools leave for the MASCAC, thing get a bit more interesting. This would leave 19 teams in the ECAC DIII Leagues. Because 19 < (7*3), that means the existence of 3rd league necessitates one no-AQ conference. That is, of course the problem that caused us to look for restructuring in the first place!

One possible suggestion to this issue would be for the East and Northeast to each give one further team of closest geographic proximity to the West, and the combine themselves. This creates a 9-team ECAC-W and a 10-team ECAC-E, and nothing else in ECAC DIII Men's Ice Hockey. These leagues would look something like this:

[B][U]West[/U][/B]		[B][U]East[/U][/B]
Castleton	Babson
Elmira		Becker
Hobart		Curry
Manhattanville	J&W
Neumann		NEC
Nichols		Norwich
Skidmore 	Salve
Utica		Suffolk
Western NE	UNE
		Wentworth

But these two suggestions are about as likely to happen as the ECAC-superleague. In other words, the will not happen, but they are at least a valid option.

Another possibility, of course, is what NUProf just suggested: Curry and Wenworth to the ECAC-E, and possibly M'ville as well. This would look something like this:

[U][B]West[/B][/U](4/5)		[B][U]East[/U][/B](8/9)		[B][U]Northeast[/U][/B](6)
Elmira			Babson			Becker
Hobart			Castleton		J&W
(Manhattanville)	Curry			Nichols
Neumann			(Manhattanville)	Salve Regina
Utica			NEC			Suffolk
			Norwich			Western NE
			Skidmore	
			UNE		
			Wentworth

End Result? Pool B remains, and switches from ECAC-W/MASCAC to ECAC-W/ECAC-NE. Now that I've considered this option, I think this is my favorite. Again, Manhattanville could go either way on the East/West divide. I think this is the most likely reorganization.

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

One more thing -- Neumann. They're hanging on an island. When you're thinking about a new league think how you're going to schedule them in. My thought is that anyone who visits them is playing a 2 game set.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Another possibility, of course, is what NUProf just suggested: Curry and Wenworth to the ECAC-E, and possibly M'ville as well. This would look something like this:

[U][B]West[/B][/U](4/5)		[B][U]East[/U][/B](8/9)		[B][U]Northeast[/U][/B](6)
Elmira			Babson			Becker
Hobart			Castleton		J&W
(Manhattanville)	Curry			Nichols
Neumann			(Manhattanville)	Salve Regina
Utica			NEC			Suffolk
			Norwich			Western NE
			Skidmore	
			UNE		
			Wentworth

End Result? Pool B remains, and switches from ECAC-W/MASCAC to ECAC-W/ECAC-NE. Now that I've considered this option, I think this is my favorite. Again, Manhattanville could go either way on the East/West divide. I think this is the most likely reorganization.

In the above scenerio, what incentive is there for Curry/Wentworth to move, when they would have the inside track on an Pool A bid in the Northeast?


If its a membership vote, the ECAC-East and ECAC-NE would be VERY unlikely to go for any realignment that cost them an AQ.

 

[hawk]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Taking a further look at what if's, I went to MapQuest and looked up Utica and Hamilton which I believe is in Clinton, NY. From the Maps it appears that Hamilton is a longer trip for most interlock teams than Utica would present.

Just from a fans point of view if the East needed teams I would look to Plymouth (with its new rink), Curry, Manhattanville, and Utica. It is going to take some time for the MASCAC to build a rep but Justin Foxx leaving Salem for Oswego has got to tell us something. As far as I know Norwich and Middlebury have never even played any of the MASCAC teams other than Salem and UMass Dartmouth.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I suspect by 2011-12, this will have happened:

"Many people talk about us maybe picking up Castleton, or maybe another local team. It makes a lot of sense, cause the guys don't miss school, although at Elmira they don't miss school because we leave on Friday not a Thursday. A local game costs us thousands of dollars less because we travel less, to go travel to play. There's a lot of talk about that. Theres a lot a talk about St Mikes going Division III finally, all of their sports going Division III. That would be great if we add them to the schedule, even of we play them over there, I'm sure our fans could go have dinner in Burlington and see the game, it would be great."

From a "Behind the Bench" back in October.

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Even Canton did go to D III they would be a SUNYAC school. I do like NUProf's idea. It makes the most sense, but that usually means it won't happen.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Even Canton did go to D III they would be a SUNYAC school. I do like NUProf's idea. It makes the most sense, but that usually means it won't happen.

Actually, they are currently as much of a member of the SUNYAC as Morrisville was 4 years ago. They have a choice. Logically, SUNYAC is probably the best fit for them, but it's entirely possible the ECAC-W might court the Kangaroos, or whatever their mascot is called. In fact, with the logistical and scheduling issues involved, I wouldn't be surprised if some SUNY schools (although probably not Potsdam) encouraging them to go to the ECAC-W.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Actually, they are currently as much of a member of the SUNYAC as Morrisville was 4 years ago. They have a choice. Logically, SUNYAC is probably the best fit for them, but it's entirely possible the ECAC-W might court the Kangaroos, or whatever their mascot is called. In fact, with the logistical and scheduling issues involved, I wouldn't be surprised if some SUNY schools (although probably not Potsdam) encouraging them to go to the ECAC-W.

Potsdam loves being the travel partner to Plattsburgh.

Geographically speaking, Canton does present a lot of scheduling issues for the SUNYAC.

 

[collegehcky2]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Potsdam loves being the travel partner to Plattsburgh.

Geographically speaking, Canton does present a lot of scheduling issues for the SUNYAC.

Whatever happened to SUNYIT building an ice rink?

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

Potsdam loves being the travel partner to Plattsburgh.

Geographically speaking, Canton does present a lot of scheduling issues for the SUNYAC.

You could probably have Plattsburgh and Potsdam remain partners. Oswego and Canton could be travel partners while Cortland and Morrisville partner up. The Fredonia/Buff State and Geneseo/Brockport pairings would stay. I think it works. (Remy's idea not mine.)

If St. Mike's goes D III that will help big time. I still think the West-East idea from Prof is the best.

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

I suspect by 2011-12, this will have happened:




From a "Behind the Bench" back in October.

IIRC any team dropping down to D-III has to serve a two year probationary "cleansing" period before they become full fledged D-III members. However, D-III is currently closed.

And, is it in St. Mike's or St. A's best interest to drop the entire athletic program down to D-III?????

 

[joecct]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

USM is not joining the MASCAC...It would just set the program back and makes little sense for them: especially since UNE joined the ECAC EAST and gives them a great travel partner for the future...

But the Little East and the MASCAC have a buddy-buddy relationship when it comes to sponsoring conference sports. For example, 2 LE schools are in the MASCAC hockey league, while Salem is in the Little East lax conference.

Personally, I think they're coming over once the MASCAC has the AQ. But I could be wrong, too.

What alignment makes the best sense cost wise and competition wise??? I think that any move of Curry/Wentworth out of the NE is suicidal to either school (see LVC) and won't happen. If the ECAC-E and W are pool B, then they're going to look for member #7 to assure an AQ.

Keep it simple and sellable.

 

[hockeyfan77]

Re: Eastern D-III hockey -- where do we go from here???

But the Little East and the MASCAC have a buddy-buddy relationship when it comes to sponsoring conference sports. For example, 2 LE schools are in the MASCAC hockey league, while Salem is in the Little East lax conference.

Personally, I think they're coming over once the MASCAC has the AQ. But I could be wrong, too.

What alignment makes the best sense cost wise and competition wise??? I think that any move of Curry/Wentworth out of the NE is suicidal to either school (see LVC) and won't happen. If the ECAC-E and W are pool B, then they're going to look for member #7 to assure an AQ.

Keep it simple and sellable.

I just don't see it happening...Doesn't make a ton of sense for USM...