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Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

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Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I get that they probably wanted to undermine him, but what I’m not seeing is the actions they took.

The average joe doesn’t even know what’s DNC stands for. They probably don’t even know Bernie wasn’t an actual Democrat.

Bernie has one of the largest email lists out there. He has a funding base as large as anyone not named Clinton. He raised enough cash and spent enough to take her down. Yet somehow she still took home millions of more votes.

I get I’m naive here, but I’m just not seeing the actions.

You might be drunk as well. Apparently me and Handy are for pointing out the same thing. ;)
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I just posted a half page answer dingus. Read it.

I did. All you had in there was that Hillary set up a joint fund raising effort with the DNC because they needed money. I asked you repeatedly, as have others, what did the DNC do to cost Sanders the nomination. We're still waiting, but I have a feeling you've got a whopper of a conspiracy theory for us, so lets have it already!
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I get that they probably wanted to undermine him, but what I’m not seeing is the actions they took.

The average joe doesn’t even know what’s DNC stands for. They probably don’t even know Bernie wasn’t an actual Democrat.

Bernie has one of the largest email lists out there. He has a funding base as large as anyone not named Clinton. He raised enough cash and spent enough to take her down. Yet somehow she still took home millions of more votes.

I get I’m naive here, but I’m just not seeing the actions.

No, you're not naive, what you're saying is reasonable and I get it. Bernie was very strong. But that's kind of my point. The national committees destroy candidacies all the time. And most of the time it's for the good: the RNC went nuclear on David Duke for all the best of reasons. But sometimes the national committee kneecaps a candidate who is very popular and also a very good match in the general. They do this for all the reasons stodgy institutions protect their vested interests even when it's sometimes not in the interests of their stated mission.

Absent the DNC's manipulation I believe Sanders would have gotten more votes in the primaries than Clinton and won. The fact that he didn't does not in and of itself demonstrate they didn't cheat. It could demonstrate they cheated effectively. The result in each case is the same, so that's not the critical test.

The critical test is were there proven actions by the DNC in favor of Hillary (against every other candidate) and specifically against Sanders, and indeed there were, as the litany I posted with very little research time demonstrates.

I am perfectly willing to hear the following:

1. Of course they cheated
2. Everyone always cheats
3. The other side's going to cheat in the general too, so
4. Winning in a cheating environment is kind of a survival skill needed to win it all.

I'm cool with that. Trust me, I breath politics local and national and I understand it is so dirty you need a shower just thinking about it. But for people to say, "fair and square" is just so insincere and/or ignorant that for whatever reason I let the idiots live rent free in my head. I should evict them.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Take it up with Warren.





(In the book Brazile notes the following:



None of this was ever contested by the DNC.)







The person who may well win our nomination and lead the party believes the DNC was in the bag for Hillary. I'm sure you can be equally disparaging and dismissive of her. :)

This should be fun...

Anybody remember the DWS resignation? Here's that well-know Bernie Bro, the New York Times, to remind you. Here's the story of the email leak:





Remember, there were findings that the DNC was legally permitted to rig the process.



That's
why the complaint was dismissed in court. The DNC wasn't exonerated, they just stated that even if they cheated it wasn't against the law.

That is all well and good, but you arent saying the DNC was "biased" you are saying they cheated and rigged it. (yes you are stop it) None of what you posted shows any of that. It shows that the many in the DNC didnt like Bernie, which was something we knew long before the Primaries. Hell we knew the same people in the DNC supported Hillary over Obama for much of 2008...

If anyone else was posting stuff like this to back up a claim like yours you would be accusing them of confirmation bias. (like all Conspiracy Theories) You are taking the fact that Bernie was not well liked by people in a Party he was not a member of (and spent a lot of time deriding) to mean they in some way hamstrung his campaign. That isnt what happened though. Bernie had no issues raising money, campaigning, being in debates or getting his message out there.

Unless you can show me how Donna Brazille and DWS convinced 70-90% of Blacks over the age of 30 to vote for Hillary (source ) then all of your conjecture is moot. Unless you can tell me how any of what you posted stopped Bernie from winning over women your point is even more moot. And unless you can tell me how it prevented Bernie from winning over anyone over the age of 44 (and they were even 30-44 for the most part) your point is as empty as Flaggy's "girlfriend". (source )

Here is a Source I Trust a Bit Less But Breaks it Down Well

I am sorry but Andrew Yang has a better argument for being screwed over in any capacity than Bernie Sanders does. (and his is a joke as well) Bernie always had an uphill battle for much of the reasons you posted. Most of them were discussed here BEFORE 2016 :eek: I, as a Bernie supporter, even said all the stuff your "evidence" is saying long before the Iowa Caucus. (and said the same as an Obama supporter in '08) But Bernie didnt lose because the DNC insiders tipped the scale, he lost because he wasnt as good of a candidate as Obama was. Maybe he was too White, maybe he is too Jewish, maybe he was too old, maybe it is hard to run as an "Outsider" when you have been in D.C. since the 1920s...I dont know but he didnt resonate with a lot of them and it wasnt because he was a Socialist. Right now he isnt being held back by any of that and he also seems to be running a better overall campaign anyways.

Getting off the "Persecution of Bernie S" for a second...the demographic breakdowns of this election and the voting patterns are kinda all over the place. I never buy into the "Brokered Convention" bs the media plays up but I really kind of think we are headed there right now. None of these candidates are striking a chord overall. Each has their loyal following but no one seems to make any headway into adding to it. I can see a real path to 3-4 staying in longer than needed and no one getting the plurality. This could get ugly, but **** if it wont be fun to watch. If that is then this guy just became more powerful:

<img src="https://uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/jonah-grid-uproxx.jpg" />
 
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Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Why the f-ck do people quote this as if it has any bearing on whether the DNC is guilty in the latter case as well? "Oswald killed Kennedy, so Hinkley should walk."

Because it tells you what you fail to let yourself see. The problem wasnt the DNC, it was with Bernie and the people who didnt vote for him.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I don’t remember who said it (Rover?) but the Bernie legion should target Ohio. My god, win Ohio with progressive policies and you move the needle more than it’s moved since Reagan combined.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

No, you're not naive, what you're saying is reasonable and I get it. Bernie was very strong. But that's kind of my point. The national committees destroy candidacies all the time. And most of the time it's for the good: the RNC went nuclear on David Duke for all the best of reasons. But sometimes the national committee kneecaps a candidate who is very popular and also a very good match in the general. They do this for all the reasons stodgy institutions protect their vested interests even when it's sometimes not in the interests of their stated mission.

Absent the DNC's manipulation I believe Sanders would have gotten more votes in the primaries than Clinton and won. The fact that he didn't does not in and of itself demonstrate they didn't cheat. It could demonstrate they cheated effectively. The result in each case is the same, so that's not the critical test.

The critical test is were there proven actions by the DNC in favor of Hillary (against every other candidate) and specifically against Sanders, and indeed there were, as the litany I posted with very little research time demonstrates.

I am perfectly willing to hear the following:

1. Of course they cheated
2. Everyone always cheats
3. The other side's going to cheat in the general too, so
4. Winning in a cheating environment is kind of a survival skill needed to win it all.

I'm cool with that. Trust me, I breath politics local and national and I understand it is so dirty you need a shower just thinking about it. But for people to say, "fair and square" is just so insincere and/or ignorant that for whatever reason I let the idiots live rent free in my head. I should evict them.

And again just because you say they cheated doesnt make it so. Every time a team loses in any sporting even they claim "bias" or "cheating" and then find vague examples to back it up. (ignoring the examples that disprove their point) I know you dont see it, but that is all you are doing here.

The math doesnt add up. The actual facts that have been posted dont either. I am telling you buddy, if you changed the names you would sound more like Trump than our good friend SUNY-Hipster.

I mean you realize almost all of us you are arguing with disliked Clinton and didnt want her to win right? (some of us were ardent Sanders supporters on top of that) Why would we discount the truth it was so self evident? It isnt like it helps our position any, it doesnt back up any bias we have and it certainly doesnt ease the pain of what we have had to deal with since 2016. Hell most of us dislike the "Establishment" within the party. So why would we fight you on this?

Occam's Razor...which is more likely? That the DNC rigged the entire Primary process so well that Hillary was able to steal most of the major demographics out side out youth OR she just ran a better campaign and Bernie didnt resonate with most Democrats at the time?
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I don’t remember who said it (Rover?) but the Bernie legion should target Ohio. My god, win Ohio with progressive policies and you move the needle more than it’s moved since Reagan combined.

Agreed. Throw in something to fix the Opioid Crisis and he could make some serious waves.
 
But, what you fail to realize is the same hands were on the same scale for '08. Obama still beat her. Bernie didn't. It's the same hands that killed Howard Dean in '06.

Imo Obama was the chosen one in 08. For many reasons, not the least of which is his mother and maternal grandparents were cia, which is quite important to the Power Elite. W had the same push (HW bring ex-cia).

How Trump happened is a very interesting question to be answered by investigative reporters 15-20 years from now.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I don’t remember who said it (Rover?) but the Bernie legion should target Ohio. My god, win Ohio with progressive policies and you move the needle more than it’s moved since Reagan combined.

Yes that was me. Its the perfect lab to test Sanders appeal in. No scary Dem establishment to deal with. Party has no political power on any level in the state. Down on their luck population that should be ripe for a populist appeal.

Some people might say Florida, but that's a bit trickier. Dems are almost 50/50 in the Congressional delegation (maybe 14R/13D) and are a few seats away in the state Senate maybe? On the other hand in Ohio the delegation is like 12R/4D and Goopers might have a supermajority in the legislature. There's nowhere to go but up in Ohio.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I don’t remember who said it (Rover?) but the Bernie legion should target Ohio. My god, win Ohio with progressive policies and you move the needle more than it’s moved since Reagan combined.

Yes, that was good advice. Make it a base of operations and revitalize the Rust Belt. Bernie can peel off a lot of those contrarians who voted for Dump just to give it to the corporations in the shorts. Michael Moore guys. From what people say here MI and WI might be good hunting grounds too.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

That is all well and good, but you arent saying the DNC was "biased" you are saying they cheated and rigged it. (yes you are stop it) None of what you posted shows any of that. It shows that the many in the DNC didnt like Bernie, which was something we knew long before the Primaries. Hell we knew the same people in the DNC supported Hillary over Obama for much of 2008...

If anyone else was posting stuff like this to back up a claim like yours you would be accusing them of confirmation bias. (like all Conspiracy Theories) You are taking the fact that Bernie was not well liked by people in a Party he was not a member of (and spent a lot of time deriding) to mean they in some way hamstrung his campaign. That isnt what happened though. Bernie had no issues raising money, campaigning, being in debates or getting his message out there.

Unless you can show me how Donna Brazille and DWS convinced 70-90% of Blacks over the age of 30 to vote for Hillary (source ) then all of your conjecture is moot. Unless you can tell me how any of what you posted stopped Bernie from winning over women your point is even more moot. And unless you can tell me how it prevented Bernie from winning over anyone over the age of 44 (and they were even 30-44 for the most part) your point is as empty as Flaggy's "girlfriend". (source )

Here is a Source I Trust a Bit Less But Breaks it Down Well

I am sorry but Andrew Yang has a better argument for being screwed over in any capacity than Bernie Sanders does. (and his is a joke as well) Bernie always had an uphill battle for much of the reasons you posted. Most of them were discussed here BEFORE 2016 :eek: I, as a Bernie supporter, even said all the stuff your "evidence" is saying long before the Iowa Caucus. (and said the same as an Obama supporter in '08) But Bernie didnt lose because the DNC insiders tipped the scale, he lost because he wasnt as good of a candidate as Obama was. Maybe he was too White, maybe he is too Jewish, maybe he was too old, maybe it is hard to run as an "Outsider" when you have been in D.C. since the 1920s...I dont know but he didnt resonate with a lot of them and it wasnt because he was a Socialist. Right now he isnt being held back by any of that and he also seems to be running a better overall campaign anyways.

Getting off the "Persecution of Bernie S" for a second...the demographic breakdowns of this election and the voting patterns are kinda all over the place. I never buy into the "Brokered Convention" bs the media plays up but I really kind of think we are headed there right now. None of these candidates are striking a chord overall. Each has their loyal following but no one seems to make any headway into adding to it. I can see a real path to 3-4 staying in longer than needed and no one getting the plurality. This could get ugly, but **** if it wont be fun to watch. If that is then this guy just became more powerful:

<img src="https://uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/jonah-grid-uproxx.jpg" />

I agree with the bolded part. Four viable candidates who may duke it out all the way until the end, which means voters towards the end of the process may get a chance to see them in person, like me. As for the DNC rigging the primaries against Sanders, there is some evidence that Sanders performed better against Clinton than he would have if caucuses didn't exist in so many states - which, it could be argued, are far more repressive of voting rights than any mandated voter ID law (which are bogus too, of course). I voted Sanders in 2016, and gladly voted for Clinton in the general. I'll likely vote Warren if she survives until May, and then gladly vote for whoever the nominee is in 2020, whether it's Biden, Warren, or Yang. It's strange to me to suggest that Sanders would have beaten Clinton, clearly the choice of African-American voters over the age of 30, if the DNC hadn't rigged the election. Something like 3.7 more million people voted for Clinton over Sanders, 10% of the primary electorate that year. Again, the trends suggest if more states had switched to open primaries, Clinton may have won by more, thanks to increased voter participation. https://www.vox.com/2016/5/2/11535648/bernie-sanders-closed-primaries-caucuses
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Again, the trends suggest if more states had switched to open primaries, Clinton may have won by more, thanks to increased voter participation.

As you move from caucuses to primaries politics becomes more retail and advertising kicks in. The electorate does become more diverse, which is good. However it also becomes more lofo and more easily persuadable by media marketing tactics rather than personal contact and substantive content.

Caucuses are stupid but the voters are smarter. Tis a paradox.

Last I heard almost every caucus in the country was in danger of extinction except IA since they consider it their Peculiar Institution, so it's going to be a moot point eventually.

I'd like to see a common primary structure across the country, and also straight proportional delegates instead of weighting. And proportional delegate counts by population, not EV.
 
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As you move from caucuses to primaries politics becomes more retail and advertising kicks in. The electorate does become more diverse, which is good. However it also becomes more lofo and more easily persuadable by media marketing tactics rather than personal contact and substantive content.

Caucuses are stupid but the voters are smarter. Tis a paradox.

Last I heard almost every caucus in the country was in danger of extinction except IA since they consider it their Peculiar Institution, so it's going to be a moot point eventually.

I'd like to see a common primary structure across the country, and also straight proportional delegates instead of weighting. And proportional delegate counts by population, not EV.

Iowa uses caucuses to avoid the fight with New Hampshire about going first. Not that hard to figure out.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Iowa uses caucuses to avoid the fight with New Hampshire about going first. Not that hard to figure out.

I had a GF from IA and my god they take that sh-t seriously. Cute, too. Too bad she wanted the baybeez or she might have made the cut.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

As you move from caucuses to primaries politics becomes more retail and advertising kicks in. The electorate does become more diverse, which is good. However it also becomes more lofo and more easily persuadable by media marketing tactics rather than personal contact and substantive content.

Caucuses are stupid but the voters are smarter. Tis a paradox.

Last I heard almost every caucus in the country was in danger of extinction except IA since they consider it their Peculiar Institution, so it's going to be a moot point eventually.

I'd like to see a common primary structure across the country, and also straight proportional delegates instead of weighting. And proportional delegate counts by population, not EV.

Smarter and better at picking candidates are two different things, so I don't think educational level being highly correlated with voting in a caucus (as in, having time) is all that much of a paradox. The opening of the primaries in 1972 sealed the deal that more people would vote for the presidential nominee, and therefore, more "rubes" would also be voting. That's the trade-off of increasing voter turnout. Personally, I would like to see Maine's ranked-choice voting implemented across all states, broadening proportional representation in House races everywhere, so that other political parties may have a chance at gaining some seats, like the libertarians, Greens, and/or Democratic Socialists of America. It'd likely increase turnout, which, at this point, only helps Democrats.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Fair. For "smarter" read "savvier."

Personally, I would like to see Maine's ranked-choice voting implemented across all states

Hell yes.
 
Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The difference between DNC members and "party leaders" is important. *Donna Brazile* is against this. The party is officially against this. But no one can stop some errant DNC members from tossing grenades into HQ. <a href="https://t.co/Lp5yFh844O">https://t.co/Lp5yFh844O</a></p>— Dave Weigel (@daveweigel) <a href="https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1223388068050358273?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 31, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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