Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Where do people get their info? It isnt like the media has learned their lesson about that stuff. (except those trying to cash in o the "I was wrong" movement) Unless people do more than watch TV and read the paper to get their news it is highly likely they will fall for this crap.

I think its more complicated than that. But, it starts with friends, family, and neighbors pushing back on disinformation. Plus I think a lot of people gave Chump the benefit of the doubt in that he wouldn't actually govern like he campaigned (big mistake) so they weren't as hyped up about opposing him. In reality he's governed exactly the way he said he would and has a track record. Now is the time to choose sides and given recent turnout it seems voters on the left are finally getting the message.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Where do people get their info? It isnt like the media has learned their lesson about that stuff. (except those trying to cash in o the "I was wrong" movement) Unless people do more than watch TV and read the paper to get their news it is highly likely they will fall for this crap.

I can't speak for Rover but my interpretation is Democrats have become much more aware that when Republicans use this stuff they are not actually trying to convey fact patterns, they are merely creating havoc. They are lying not to establish content but just for effect. Therefore, engaging them in any way, including rebutting them, satisfies their requirements.

The only way to win is not to play. The voters in the conservative veal fattening pen are lost -- they will always believe this stuff because belief is tied up with their psychology and neuroses. If they didn't believe they would have to face being played, and conservatives are so cowardly and insecure by their very natures that would be lethal to their self-image.

There is no way to refute a child throwing a tantrum. You merely move forward doing adult business and pay it no mind or, if you are in position as we are in the House and hopefully will be across government in 2021, punish to correct.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Riiiiiiiight. Look I am sure in the land of Duckies and Bunnies where all Democrats are pure as the driven snow and love each other that is true. In the real world that the rest of us occupy you couldnt be farther from the truth. (fyi both worlds better than the one Scooby occupies )

Your attitude is dangerous and your assumptions will lose the election. You have to assume that everyone is as dumb as the average person. (they are average for a reason) Democrat, Republican Andrew Yang...all of them. You need to dumb down your message to the lowest common denominator and make sure they get it. You start acting like all Dems "get it" and that they will do the job to educate themselves on the nuances of the argument and you might as well just make your protest signs now because we will get trounced. Democrats are just as lazy as anyone...we need to TELL THEM. The media sure isnt going to help us so we have to do it ourselves.

Democratic voters arent some great voices in the wilderness, they arent going to put their petty beefs aside, and they arent all geniuses with great virtues. They are nimrods just like everyone else. Once you accept that, you will begin to win again. You can strategize better that way.

 

[Rover]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I disagree with both of you learned gentlemen! Big surprise I realize.

Our job is to fight misinformation and outright lies. Mind you I'm not suggesting you go to the Proud Boys website and start commenting about Chump's failures. However, when you see someone persuadable start blathering about "both sides are bad" or "I'm voting 3rd party" THAT's when you jump in however you feel would be most effective (cajoling, raging, a combination of both, etc). I don't trust people to make the right decisions, but at the same time I also don't feel the need to argue with nutters unless its for my own amusement.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Riiiiiiiight. Look I am sure in the land of Duckies and Bunnies where all Democrats are pure as the driven snow and love each other that is true. In the real world that the rest of us occupy you couldnt be farther from the truth. (fyi both worlds better than the one Scooby occupies )

Your attitude is dangerous and your assumptions will lose the election. You have to assume that everyone is as dumb as the average person. (they are average for a reason) Democrat, Republican Andrew Yang...all of them. You need to dumb down your message to the lowest common denominator and make sure they get it. You start acting like all Dems "get it" and that they will do the job to educate themselves on the nuances of the argument and you might as well just make your protest signs now because we will get trounced. Democrats are just as lazy as anyone...we need to TELL THEM. The media sure isnt going to help us so we have to do it ourselves.

Democratic voters arent some great voices in the wilderness, they arent going to put their petty beefs aside, and they arent all geniuses with great virtues. They are nimrods just like everyone else. Once you accept that, you will begin to win again. You can strategize better that way.

I don't understand what your response has to do with my statements. As far as I am concerned, you are also right. There's no contradiction between us here.

I'm talking about when Republicans peddle conspiracies, and I'm saying Republicans are lost causes and conspiracies are wildfires which grow in the feeding -- the way to stamp them out is isolation.

That has nothing to do with persuadables or bothsiderism, about which you are correct.

These two tactics are not mutually exclusive.

As for dumbing things down, yes, obviously, we are dealing with the Average Man, who is OTP Memory. Make it simple, burn it in.

 

[burd]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I disagree with both of you learned gentlemen! Big surprise I realize.

Our job is to fight misinformation and outright lies. Mind you I'm not suggesting you go to the Proud Boys website and start commenting about Chump's failures. However, when you see someone persuadable start blathering about "both sides are bad" or "I'm voting 3rd party" THAT's when you jump in however you feel would be most effective (cajoling, raging, a combination of both, etc). I don't trust people to make the right decisions, but at the same time I also don't feel the need to argue with nutters unless its for my own amusement.

One way to engage people who are on the outside but might be persuaded to come in (by voting D or just by showing up to vote this time) is to discuss with them the root issues that caused people to feel disenfranchised and elect trump, rather than focusing on trump himself. With some, you obviously have to stress how dangerous the man is, but he is so polarizing it's hard to get through the biases when he is part of the discussion, even with swing voters.

In the woods I live in, every single one of those people counts.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

One way to engage people who are on the outside but might be persuaded to come in (by voting D or just by showing up to vote this time) is to discuss with them the root issues that caused people to feel disenfranchised and elect trump, rather than focusing on trump himself. With some, you obviously have to stress how dangerous the man is, but he is so polarizing it's hard to get through the biases when he is part of the discussion, even with swing voters.

Depends. I know a lot of "smart" people that are locked in voting for Republicans because of guns, or abortion. That doesn't even touch on immigration (fear of others) which also drives a lot of them. Then if you manage to get beyond those topics in discussion you cannot break through their delusions about economics (They love Reagan and think his economic policies are the bomb). And if you manage to engage them on economics and have a real discussion it will ultimately devolve into the total misuse of the word socialism. I love Bernie for embracing the term because he got sick of answering the question but now you have evil socialism equated with "democratic" socialism and to most of these people it's all just socialism. They completely dismiss Social Security and Medicare as socialism despite their newfound definition.

And if you manage to get out of that box you were probably talking to a Democrat the whole time and he/she was just funning you from the beginning.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Depends. I know a lot of "smart" people that are locked in voting for Republicans because of guns, or abortion. That doesn't even touch on immigration (fear of others) which also drives a lot of them. Then if you manage to get beyond those topics in discussion you cannot break through their delusions about economics (They love Reagan and think his economic policies are the bomb). And if you manage to engage them on economics and have a real discussion it will ultimately devolve into the total misuse of the word socialism. I love Bernie for embracing the term because he got sick of answering the question but now you have evil socialism equated with "democratic" socialism and to most of these people it's all just socialism. They completely dismiss Social Security and Medicare as socialism despite their newfound definition.

And if you manage to get out of that box you were probably talking to a Democrat the whole time and he/she was just funning you from the beginning.

This checks with my experience.

The Republicans I have had good conversations have circular defenses. If they are receptive on economics they shut off on religion. If they are disturbed by Creeping Christibanism then they trip over some Koch-fueled Randian fairy tale. And if somehow you get somebody in front of you who still has cognitive function on both then they resort to bothsiderism.

Once people are committed the only thing that changes them is a traumatic life experience, so unless we want to commit to a wholesale policy of putting Republican children into the hospital so the callousness of conservative health care revolts their parents, I suggest we forget them.

 

[burd]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

This checks with my experience.

The Republicans I have had good conversations have circular defenses. If they are receptive on economics they shut off on religion. If they are disturbed by Creeping Christibanism then they trip over some Koch-fueled Randian fairy tale. And if somehow you get somebody in front of you who still has cognitive function on both then they resort to bothsiderism.

Once people are committed the only thing that changes them is a traumatic life experience, so unless we want to commit to a wholesale policy of putting Republican children into the hospital so the callousness of conservative health care revolts their parents, I suggest we forget them.

That's true enough, but it's the small % of people we need to either bring back (BO votes we lost) or get to show up whom this discussion should be geared toward. If those folks cannot be reached, we might as well pack for Vancouver now.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

That's true enough, but it's the small % of people we need to either bring back (BO votes we lost) or get to show up whom this discussion should be geared toward. If those folks cannot be reached, we might as well pack for Vancouver now.

The people who went to Dump as a middle finger can be brought back with Bernie or possibly Warren.

The people who went to Dump for the man himself are gone forever.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

The people who went to Dump as a middle finger can be brought back with Bernie or possibly Warren.

The people who went to Dump for the man himself are gone forever.

Simple. Elegant. And 100% correct.

 

[burd]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

The people who went to Dump as a middle finger can be brought back with Bernie or possibly Warren.

The people who went to Dump for the man himself are gone forever.

Same for BO votes who stayed home? I have to assume the smart people know how many there were from each group in the battleground states.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Same for BO votes who stayed home? I have to assume the smart people know how many there were from each group in the battleground states.

I gotta tell you, the numbers people say they exist so OK I will believe they exist. But I have no idea who such a person could be. The only people I can think of are sexist, probably fundy Christian, blacks. Are there really that many of them? Or is this a combination of replacement by motivation (Dem turnout down in the rust belt, GOP turnout up, but nobody actually switches) or Operation Chaos (Republican voters say they voted for Obama to put the wind up).

I have a very difficult time imagining what else could go on inside a brain that voted for Obama and Dump.

 

[burd]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I gotta tell you, the numbers people say they exist so OK I will believe they exist. But I have no idea who such a person could be. The only people I can think of are sexist, probably fundy Christian, blacks. Are there really that many of them? Or is this a combination of replacement by motivation (Dem turnout down in the rust belt, GOP turnout up, but nobody actually switches) or Operation Chaos (Republican voters say they voted for Obama to put the wind up).

I have a very difficult time imagining what else could go on inside a brain that voted for Obama and Dump.

I tend to think it's mostly folks who stayed home, rather than switched. I guess when I volunteer later this year, I will be given an address or phone roster which identifies targeted voters who are historically dem or independent, so it really doesn't matter in that context whether they flipped or just stayed home in '16.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I gotta tell you, the numbers people say they exist so OK I will believe they exist. But I have no idea who such a person could be. The only people I can think of are sexist, probably fundy Christian, blacks. Are there really that many of them? Or is this a combination of replacement by motivation (Dem turnout down in the rust belt, GOP turnout up, but nobody actually switches) or Operation Chaos (Republican voters say they voted for Obama to put the wind up).

I have a very difficult time imagining what else could go on inside a brain that voted for Obama and Dump.

I would assume a noticeable percentage of minorities switched sides. No Latino was voting for McCain (outside of Arizona) but they might vote Trump. (unless they were Mexican)

Also, Obama was a middle finger to the Establishment in '08 (he barely had held office) which got people out as well. I mean you cant get less Hillary/McCain than '08 Obama. (not so much 12) I could see 200k people who voted that way switching sides when Trump is the middle finger vote. That may not seem like much but in the right states that is enough to give Trump is "Unprecedented Victory in the Rigged Electoral College!!!".

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

I gotta tell you, the numbers people say they exist so OK I will believe they exist. But I have no idea who such a person could be. The only people I can think of are sexist, probably fundy Christian, blacks. Are there really that many of them? Or is this a combination of replacement by motivation (Dem turnout down in the rust belt, GOP turnout up, but nobody actually switches) or Operation Chaos (Republican voters say they voted for Obama to put the wind up).

I have a very difficult time imagining what else could go on inside a brain that voted for Obama and Dump.

Well black turnout was way down, especially in Milwaukee, that's well known.

Briahna Joy Gray: In a University of Wisconsin-Madison study cited by Malaika in her Current Affairs article, when asked why they didn’t vote 33% of black Milwaukee non-voters said that they were unhappy with the choice of candidates or issues. 8.8% said that they were not interested, and 6.6% said their vote would not have mattered. Voter suppression is an important factor in many parts of the country, but fewer than 4% of respondents said that they did not have adequate photo ID, were told at a polling place that ID was inadequate, or that lines were too long. A Pew Research Center poll of all non-voters showed the same thing. A quarter of registered voters who did not vote in 2016 said the main reason was dislike of the candidates or the issues. Another 15% said they didn’t think their vote would make a difference.

Malaika Jabali: There are many things, and I’m going to put my attorney hat here because there’s rarely just kind of one answer to some of this stuff. There’s unprecedented segregation, there’s unprecedented numbers of black people who were going through foreclosure in Wisconsin. They have the highest black male incarceration rate in the country in Wisconsin, the highest black male joblessness rate in the country in Wisconsin. A lot of these things lead to civil unrest, but there’s something undergirding it, not just thinking about police repression, but what is that match point. If people are feeling disillusioned from the state policies and the state police issue, you would consider that that might have some impact on whether or not people go to the polls.

As far as Obama to Trump voters, that's harder to say though he did hit the right buttons on things like NAFTA rather than saying America is already great, so something like that might've won some converts.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Lol

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hard to overstate how unpredictable talking to voters can be: Melissa from Algona, Iowa, caucused for Bernie in 2016, then voted for a Trump; she supports Medicare for All but supports Buttigieg, but will likely vote for Trump again if Buttigieg doesn’t win the Dem nomination. <a href="https://t.co/ZgvQQ7NoW2">pic.twitter.com/ZgvQQ7NoW2</a></p>— Matt Pearce (@mattdpearce) <a href="https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/1217864280126775297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 16, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[burd]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Lol

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hard to overstate how unpredictable talking to voters can be: Melissa from Algona, Iowa, caucused for Bernie in 2016, then voted for a Trump; she supports Medicare for All but supports Buttigieg, but will likely vote for Trump again if Buttigieg doesn’t win the Dem nomination. <a href="https://t.co/ZgvQQ7NoW2">pic.twitter.com/ZgvQQ7NoW2</a></p>— Matt Pearce (@mattdpearce) <a href="https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/1217864280126775297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 16, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

There are probably a lot of things about Melissa from Algona that are difficult to explain.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Lol

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hard to overstate how unpredictable talking to voters can be: Melissa from Algona, Iowa, caucused for Bernie in 2016, then voted for a Trump; she supports Medicare for All but supports Buttigieg, but will likely vote for Trump again if Buttigieg doesn’t win the Dem nomination. <a href="https://t.co/ZgvQQ7NoW2">pic.twitter.com/ZgvQQ7NoW2</a></p>— Matt Pearce (@mattdpearce) <a href="https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/1217864280126775297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 16, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Jfc

 

[Handyman]

Re: Democratic Challengers 8: Candidates Can Only Work for A Vegan Farm Market

Maybe don't interview dumb phuks from Iowa...