Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
What's going on with these tuitions? A few years ago Princeton was $45k/year!
What's going on with these tuitions? A few years ago Princeton was $45k/year!
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D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
- Thread starter Cali
- Start date
OnMAA
Vort Doen.....Heija Heija Heija
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Make sure you are comparing apples to apples. For example, do all these quoted numbers include room and board or not.
Make sure you are comparing apples to apples. For example, do all these quoted numbers include room and board or not.
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Thanks for all the great, helpful replies. There is a lot to learn and absorb with this process and it is very interesting.
When I listed the costs of the 4 schools the information was taken from the schools websites for all costs, tuition, room, board, meaal plans athletic fees etc., for International students.
Thanks for all the great, helpful replies. There is a lot to learn and absorb with this process and it is very interesting.
When I listed the costs of the 4 schools the information was taken from the schools websites for all costs, tuition, room, board, meaal plans athletic fees etc., for International students.
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Another question that comes to mind with this process is, how many of these aid options will be available for year 2? Discounting the first order (so to speak) is a common retail tact. Does it apply here as well??
Another question that comes to mind with this process is, how many of these aid options will be available for year 2? Discounting the first order (so to speak) is a common retail tact. Does it apply here as well??
Depends...does your financial situation change significantly, how your d does academically, etc
But they wont be out to purposely screw you. Not a good business tactic for them
canadahockey26
New member
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
To keep her scholarships my D needs to maintain a 2.5 GPA for 2 of them, and a 3.0 GPA for the other one. The financial aid may change for us next year but as long as my D maintains these grades she will be covered for all 4 years. My Ds school also has a program where if you are an RA in her resident hall you get free boarding and meal plan.
To keep her scholarships my D needs to maintain a 2.5 GPA for 2 of them, and a 3.0 GPA for the other one. The financial aid may change for us next year but as long as my D maintains these grades she will be covered for all 4 years. My Ds school also has a program where if you are an RA in her resident hall you get free boarding and meal plan.
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
I'm not sure if this has been stated before but it is worth saying again, choose the school based upon the best acedemic fit for you daughter that you can afford. The hockey is only another 4 years but the career lasts 35 +.
Take the time to tour as many of the schools on her list as possible. The tours will be a big factor in the fianl decision. You have to pick the location where you will be comfortable for the next 4 years.
I'm not sure if this has been stated before but it is worth saying again, choose the school based upon the best acedemic fit for you daughter that you can afford. The hockey is only another 4 years but the career lasts 35 +.
Take the time to tour as many of the schools on her list as possible. The tours will be a big factor in the fianl decision. You have to pick the location where you will be comfortable for the next 4 years.
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Thanks, I appreciate that and that statement cannot be said enough. The ironic thing is that when your D is a middle of the recruiting class hockey prospect, the number of schools that express interest, first of all, and secondly that step up to the table with an offer, are limited, compared to those for a higher rated prospects. The D and her family are then choosing from a list of schools that, because of the numbers game, may not include the ideal first choice. The decision then has an added component of "do you want to settle".
Thanks for the advice.
Thanks, I appreciate that and that statement cannot be said enough. The ironic thing is that when your D is a middle of the recruiting class hockey prospect, the number of schools that express interest, first of all, and secondly that step up to the table with an offer, are limited, compared to those for a higher rated prospects. The D and her family are then choosing from a list of schools that, because of the numbers game, may not include the ideal first choice. The decision then has an added component of "do you want to settle".
Thanks for the advice.
unofan
Well-known member
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
A D1 athletic scholarship is only guaranteed for the first year. Renewal is at the option of the school for succeeding years (though, generally, you won't lose it absent your daughter quitting the team, because coaches don't want to earn the reputation of reneging on deals. Most places will even work with you if there's a career ending injury or the like).
A standard financial aid package from the school itself should remain fairly constant absent a change in personal circumstances, since they're almost always based on financial need. Some might include scholarships that require a certain GPA, but most won't.
A D1 athletic scholarship is only guaranteed for the first year. Renewal is at the option of the school for succeeding years (though, generally, you won't lose it absent your daughter quitting the team, because coaches don't want to earn the reputation of reneging on deals. Most places will even work with you if there's a career ending injury or the like).
A standard financial aid package from the school itself should remain fairly constant absent a change in personal circumstances, since they're almost always based on financial need. Some might include scholarships that require a certain GPA, but most won't.
notfromaroundhere
A visitor in any town!
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
This D3 parent's take on the decision process.
1) Does your daughter know what career field she wants to pursue after college? This is the first driver of the decision. Find a school where she will have good opportunities to do things outside of the classroom in her field. She will enjoy it more.
1a) Does this career field typically require grad school (med, law, etc.)? While your D's grades and test scores might qualify her for anything short of an Ivy (and you'd be surprised that Ivies are easier for admission for athletes than you might think), grad schools in the US (Canada may be a bit different, if she want to return home) favor students who have top grades in their undergrad years, regardless of the institution (An A student at a 2nd tier public will be favored over a B student at a more prestigous school). If your daughter, goes to a school where she is comes in at the top of the class, her likelyhood of graduating there is greatly enhanced as will be the opportunities for those outside the classroom experiences I mentioned earlier.
2) Finances. I know where you come from in being worried about paying for it all. If you can't afford it, it doesn't matter. If your daughter selects a school where she is at the top of the incoming class (top decile), the likelyhood financial aid is extremely high. This is true at public and private schools with the exception of the Ivies and NESCAC schools where all FA is based upon Income and Assets.
3) Hockey experience. Yeah, everyone wants to be an integral part of a highly competitive D1 team, but if your daughter is getting calls from D3 schools as well as D1, that means she is not a sure bet to see a lot of ice in D1 in her career. Significant Freshman ice time is not necessarily assured here. This is a personality test. How much is being an important contributor vs a lesser role at a "higher" level. Secret (although biased) hint - most kids just want to play lots on a team that has a meainingful season. They bond with their teammates and form an identity. They don't think of themselves as a D1 player (better than all those D3 players) or a D3 player (somehow trying to prove themselves real college athletes). They think of themselves as hockey players on a team. What role do they want for how many years of their limited competitive career?
Ultimately, to make this decision, you need to know what experience will best motivate your daughter to move forward with her life. My daughter's school had a Canadian freshman player last year who had a disappointing season and came to realize that the only reason she was south of the border was the hockey. My humble opinion was that the family was too focused on the hockey and not the college experience as she chose this school over a CIS school IIRC. She is back at university in Canada this year, I understand. Not sure about the hockey situation. Point here is to make sure the school choice is about pursuing an academic goal and that the school has more than a rink of interest.
Then you have to look at the finances. Apply at a variety of schools regardless of interest. If she has D1 interest, any D3 school will be happy to have her fall in their lap. Choose a few schools where she will be near the top of her incoming class - financial safeties. There are many SUNY and Wisconsin publics that have very affordable tuition for OOS and foreign students (15K to 20K tuition). The Minnesota D1 schools (especially Bemidji) have reasonable OOS tuition as I remember and a partial athletic scholarship at one of these would go a long way. While many of these schools don't have the cache of the big name privates, if you have specific programs of study your D is interested in, you may find some excellent programs in these areas at some of these schools.
BTW, I work in higher education at a school that doesn't have hockey (not a sport native to this part of the country), so I know a little bit about how things work. My daughter's search focused on finding the schools where she could pursue her career goals (she will be serving her country as an officer in the military after graduation), while having a decent chance of getting ice time on a reasonably competitive team. Her major or a functional equivalent is found at about 90% of schools. The finances also worked out very well, but that was specific to her non-hockey pursuits. From all reports (this is her sophomore year), she is very happy with where she is overall. She's watched many hockey players struggle with various issues on her team and knows that you've got to love what your doing off the ice if you are going to be happy. It makes the tough times on the ice easier to handle.
Best of luck in your D's school search. You can leave an email if you'd like to discuss more offline.
This D3 parent's take on the decision process.
1) Does your daughter know what career field she wants to pursue after college? This is the first driver of the decision. Find a school where she will have good opportunities to do things outside of the classroom in her field. She will enjoy it more.
1a) Does this career field typically require grad school (med, law, etc.)? While your D's grades and test scores might qualify her for anything short of an Ivy (and you'd be surprised that Ivies are easier for admission for athletes than you might think), grad schools in the US (Canada may be a bit different, if she want to return home) favor students who have top grades in their undergrad years, regardless of the institution (An A student at a 2nd tier public will be favored over a B student at a more prestigous school). If your daughter, goes to a school where she is comes in at the top of the class, her likelyhood of graduating there is greatly enhanced as will be the opportunities for those outside the classroom experiences I mentioned earlier.
2) Finances. I know where you come from in being worried about paying for it all. If you can't afford it, it doesn't matter. If your daughter selects a school where she is at the top of the incoming class (top decile), the likelyhood financial aid is extremely high. This is true at public and private schools with the exception of the Ivies and NESCAC schools where all FA is based upon Income and Assets.
3) Hockey experience. Yeah, everyone wants to be an integral part of a highly competitive D1 team, but if your daughter is getting calls from D3 schools as well as D1, that means she is not a sure bet to see a lot of ice in D1 in her career. Significant Freshman ice time is not necessarily assured here. This is a personality test. How much is being an important contributor vs a lesser role at a "higher" level. Secret (although biased) hint - most kids just want to play lots on a team that has a meainingful season. They bond with their teammates and form an identity. They don't think of themselves as a D1 player (better than all those D3 players) or a D3 player (somehow trying to prove themselves real college athletes). They think of themselves as hockey players on a team. What role do they want for how many years of their limited competitive career?
Ultimately, to make this decision, you need to know what experience will best motivate your daughter to move forward with her life. My daughter's school had a Canadian freshman player last year who had a disappointing season and came to realize that the only reason she was south of the border was the hockey. My humble opinion was that the family was too focused on the hockey and not the college experience as she chose this school over a CIS school IIRC. She is back at university in Canada this year, I understand. Not sure about the hockey situation. Point here is to make sure the school choice is about pursuing an academic goal and that the school has more than a rink of interest.
Then you have to look at the finances. Apply at a variety of schools regardless of interest. If she has D1 interest, any D3 school will be happy to have her fall in their lap. Choose a few schools where she will be near the top of her incoming class - financial safeties. There are many SUNY and Wisconsin publics that have very affordable tuition for OOS and foreign students (15K to 20K tuition). The Minnesota D1 schools (especially Bemidji) have reasonable OOS tuition as I remember and a partial athletic scholarship at one of these would go a long way. While many of these schools don't have the cache of the big name privates, if you have specific programs of study your D is interested in, you may find some excellent programs in these areas at some of these schools.
BTW, I work in higher education at a school that doesn't have hockey (not a sport native to this part of the country), so I know a little bit about how things work. My daughter's search focused on finding the schools where she could pursue her career goals (she will be serving her country as an officer in the military after graduation), while having a decent chance of getting ice time on a reasonably competitive team. Her major or a functional equivalent is found at about 90% of schools. The finances also worked out very well, but that was specific to her non-hockey pursuits. From all reports (this is her sophomore year), she is very happy with where she is overall. She's watched many hockey players struggle with various issues on her team and knows that you've got to love what your doing off the ice if you are going to be happy. It makes the tough times on the ice easier to handle.
Best of luck in your D's school search. You can leave an email if you'd like to discuss more offline.
gotice
"I'm alive. Bring it"
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
they are more commonly referred to as the mini ivies. Some of the top small academic schools in the nation. NESCAC stands for New England Small College Athletic Conference
they are more commonly referred to as the mini ivies. Some of the top small academic schools in the nation. NESCAC stands for New England Small College Athletic Conference
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Thank you. I had tried Googling the acronym earlier but got it wrong and, as such, couldn't find anything. Thanks for the info.
Cali
Thank you. I had tried Googling the acronym earlier but got it wrong and, as such, couldn't find anything. Thanks for the info.
Cali
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Forgive me if this point was already made, but another factor for you and your D to consider here is that many girls who end up playing DI wind up needing a fifth year of undergraduate work to graduate. I know many girls who took 12 hours in any given semester because of the time commitment playing DI hockey. Before you know it, one semester becomes eight, and unless she does a lot of summer school, a fifth year will be required. Factor in the cost of the fifth year, not only the tuition and room & board, but also the opportunity cost of delaying that starting salary by another year. It can become a really large number. And, I don't think there are too many girls getting atheletic money for the fifth year absent a medical redshirt. I also whole-heartedly agree with Notfromaroundhere. Once the scoreboard lights go on and the players hit the ice, hockey is hockey. Playing on a team that competes for a conference or national championship is great regardless of which division you are playing in, and losing all your games at DI is certainly less fun than winning at DIII.
Forgive me if this point was already made, but another factor for you and your D to consider here is that many girls who end up playing DI wind up needing a fifth year of undergraduate work to graduate. I know many girls who took 12 hours in any given semester because of the time commitment playing DI hockey. Before you know it, one semester becomes eight, and unless she does a lot of summer school, a fifth year will be required. Factor in the cost of the fifth year, not only the tuition and room & board, but also the opportunity cost of delaying that starting salary by another year. It can become a really large number. And, I don't think there are too many girls getting atheletic money for the fifth year absent a medical redshirt. I also whole-heartedly agree with Notfromaroundhere. Once the scoreboard lights go on and the players hit the ice, hockey is hockey. Playing on a team that competes for a conference or national championship is great regardless of which division you are playing in, and losing all your games at DI is certainly less fun than winning at DIII.
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Interesting point. I have noticed that the Ivies will take girls with academic qualifications that aren't exactly what is considered Ivy caliber. I know of a few myself that are good students but not in the middle 50% or at the bottom of the middle 50%. What I have wondered about is, in general, how do these women (ones that essentially made it based more on their hockey prowess than their academic prowess) do at these prestigious institutions. Is it tough for them academically? Are they more or less likely to get into grad school than the Ivy caliber girl that goes to a second tier institution? I never hear about the ins and outs of life after hockey except for some of the top names that are still in the game in some capacity.
Interesting point. I have noticed that the Ivies will take girls with academic qualifications that aren't exactly what is considered Ivy caliber. I know of a few myself that are good students but not in the middle 50% or at the bottom of the middle 50%. What I have wondered about is, in general, how do these women (ones that essentially made it based more on their hockey prowess than their academic prowess) do at these prestigious institutions. Is it tough for them academically? Are they more or less likely to get into grad school than the Ivy caliber girl that goes to a second tier institution? I never hear about the ins and outs of life after hockey except for some of the top names that are still in the game in some capacity.
notfromaroundhere
A visitor in any town!
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Interesting Place for me to jump off into my personal opinion (I'm sure my generalizations will offend a couple) of which kind of schools should appeal to which kind of hockey playing student-athlete. Here goes...
D1
Ivies - If a young lady is truly a top student and a top level athlete, this is the place to prove you can do it all. Or it is the place you can find out that you really don't have enough hours in the day to achieve with your peers AND spend have a full time job playing hockey. It is not uncommon to read about ladies who after playing their frosh year, decide they'd rather devote their hours to their academic experience and leave hockey behind. And because Financial Aid at Ivies is all need-based, there is no scholarship to lose. For students whose puck handling skills were their key to their admission, the good news is that if you try hard it is very difficult to get bad grades at an Ivy. Many have reputations for grade inflation (P'ton excluded IIRC). Grad schools know this of course, so don't think that being a 3.0 student at Harvard is better than being a 3.5 student at a top Private or State University. The good news is though that the B student who is a varsity athlete at an Ivy will have an easier time getting an interview on Wall Street or other exclusive employer, because you've now made connections with the well connected both in the classroom and otherwise on campus. The Ivy League undergrad degree doesn't make you prepared for any specific job (Cornell Engineering and similar programs excepted, of course) - the courses there are more about teaching you to think rather than do. The fact that you are an athlete means that you are not just a brain in a bottle and have had some meaningful teamwork experience to go with that critical thinking you've developed. If you've got the chops to achieve top grades and keep on the varsity roster, your opportunities after graduation (including top grad/professional schools) are limitless.
Top Tier Privates and State Flagship schools
There are more potential academic careers and a different set of experiences available across this spectrum of school primarily because they have much different missions than the Ivy League for their undergraduate programs. While not having the cache of the Ivy League, very few undergrads will ever lack for an academic challenge if they have the academic preparation for these schools. Many of these have undergraduate research opportunities available and top notch "practical" (nursing, physical therapy, etc.) programs that are very attractive to many athletes. Bear in mind, many of these options are very challenging academically and may not work out well with the D1 hockey schedule - investigate carefully before committing. Liberal arts are not forgotten at these places, but not as dominant in the culture as at the Ivies.
2nd Tier Privates and Publics
While not highly competitive in cultures, these schools may offer a more supportive/nurturing environment for the student who are taught by instructors whose first mission isn't chasing the almight research grant. More of the academic offerings are practical (health sciences, business, etc.) and for the student who wants to step out into the workforce at age 22 with a employable undergrad degree in hand while not killing themselves to maintain the academic/athletic experience, this may be the best path. Liberal arts aren't dead at these schools and in fact may be more personalized because of the non-research nature of most of these schools.
Specialty Schools
I'll create a special class for RPI and Northeastern. For the person who wants to play hockey and go to a pure "techie" school, there is not another school like RPI (Cornell fans can flame me now - but Cornell is more than an Engineering school). And for the ultimate in "practical" education, Northeastern's integrated internship programs for ALL majors prepare students for the real world of work in a way that no other school offering hockey can. You will need more than 4 year to do this, but those terms spent interning (for money usually) keep a student programmed year round and fully integrated in their goals at all times.
D3
NESCAC - Also as mentioned above - "mini-ivies", the undergraduate education you get at these schools is every bit as good (if not better) than the Ivies. They are liberal arts schools where you get the small class size and they are not about the research grant. They are smaller than the Ivies (for good and bad) and all are away from major cities (for good and bad). Their graduates are just as valued (equivalent schools compared between both groups) in employment and graduate school admissions. Financial aid works the same way - all need based - so if you find Plato more interesting than Pucks come sophomore year, there is no penalty box for your bank account. The campus cultures are also more "jock friendly" because a higher percentage of athletes play varsity sports at NESCAC schools than any other group of schools in the country. And while most average Americans don't recognized a Amherst or Williams diploma as an elite accomplishment like a sheepskin from Harvard or Yale, top employers and graduate school do recognize this and in fact understand that these students are at these schools more for the experience than the Ivy name.
2nd Tier State Universities
While there are not flagship schools in the D3 realm, there are some great 2nd tier State Universities with solid women's hockey programs. And for families with modest means, there are great deals to be found in both the SUNY and Wisconsin systems for out of state students - often LESS THAN in-state tution at home. Most have programs in the many "practical" degree programs and they are focused on the undergraduate student experience. And even if you are a top student, don't rule all of these schools out. Wisconsin Eau Claire has a Rhodes Scholar in its recent past, proving a school experience is what you make of it.
Private Schools
There are a variety of private schools in D3 ranging from schools dominated by practical programs to pure liberal arts colleges. The MIAC schools around the cities offer a small school (or medium in the case of St. Thomas) experience in the heart of a great city for young people. The value in most of these schools is finding an academic and living environment that more closely matches the needs of students who don't fit in at the large college. A program is only as successful in developing a student as the environment works with the student's particular needs.
Specialty Schools
Like D1, RIT (at least as long as it stays D3) is the techie school for the hockey player who wants that environment. There are also several women's colleges to be found as well. And for the young lady who wants to play NCAA hockey and dreams of going to West Point, Norwich has a Senior Military College (as well as civilian college), which like The Citadel and VMI offer a true "cadet" experience with a guaranteed commission in the armed forces for those who choose upon graduation.
Bottom line is that for every student it is important to match the career aspirations, academic qualification, and athletic achievement along to the learning environment if you want a satisfying and successful experience for your aspiring hockey player.
I'm sure I've offended a few by leaving out what makes their school special, although I had no intention of doing so. Considering my tagname, many would wonder how I came be familiar with so many schools. As I have mentioned, I work in higher education, but more importantly, I started touring schools many years ago, beginning in earnest on the trip to take my daughter to start 9th grade at a NE boardings school. Trips to and from school and to hockey tournaments all over the US offered constant opportunities to visit campuses over her high school years. Add in a couple summer extended tours to the upper midwest during breaks, and we've seen the campuses of more than a 1/3 of all D1 and D3 schools. I've also done a ton of online research and have been a regular on major college oriented forum going back well before we started campus tours.
And it has been a joy to have had the experience with my daughter. It was every bit as much an educational experience for both of us, both learning about schools and learning about what is important to my daughter as she discovers it for herself. We as parents can start with ideas of what we think our daughters will be when the grow up and how they will get there, but they will more than likely surprise you along the way and if you are not listening carefully, your actions will lead you down paths that aren't right. You need to expose them to a variety of opportunities, but ultimately it will be their decision on how to move their life forward. And it is our job at that point to let them go and cheer from the stands.
Interesting Place for me to jump off into my personal opinion (I'm sure my generalizations will offend a couple) of which kind of schools should appeal to which kind of hockey playing student-athlete. Here goes...
D1
Ivies - If a young lady is truly a top student and a top level athlete, this is the place to prove you can do it all. Or it is the place you can find out that you really don't have enough hours in the day to achieve with your peers AND spend have a full time job playing hockey. It is not uncommon to read about ladies who after playing their frosh year, decide they'd rather devote their hours to their academic experience and leave hockey behind. And because Financial Aid at Ivies is all need-based, there is no scholarship to lose. For students whose puck handling skills were their key to their admission, the good news is that if you try hard it is very difficult to get bad grades at an Ivy. Many have reputations for grade inflation (P'ton excluded IIRC). Grad schools know this of course, so don't think that being a 3.0 student at Harvard is better than being a 3.5 student at a top Private or State University. The good news is though that the B student who is a varsity athlete at an Ivy will have an easier time getting an interview on Wall Street or other exclusive employer, because you've now made connections with the well connected both in the classroom and otherwise on campus. The Ivy League undergrad degree doesn't make you prepared for any specific job (Cornell Engineering and similar programs excepted, of course) - the courses there are more about teaching you to think rather than do. The fact that you are an athlete means that you are not just a brain in a bottle and have had some meaningful teamwork experience to go with that critical thinking you've developed. If you've got the chops to achieve top grades and keep on the varsity roster, your opportunities after graduation (including top grad/professional schools) are limitless.
Top Tier Privates and State Flagship schools
There are more potential academic careers and a different set of experiences available across this spectrum of school primarily because they have much different missions than the Ivy League for their undergraduate programs. While not having the cache of the Ivy League, very few undergrads will ever lack for an academic challenge if they have the academic preparation for these schools. Many of these have undergraduate research opportunities available and top notch "practical" (nursing, physical therapy, etc.) programs that are very attractive to many athletes. Bear in mind, many of these options are very challenging academically and may not work out well with the D1 hockey schedule - investigate carefully before committing. Liberal arts are not forgotten at these places, but not as dominant in the culture as at the Ivies.
2nd Tier Privates and Publics
While not highly competitive in cultures, these schools may offer a more supportive/nurturing environment for the student who are taught by instructors whose first mission isn't chasing the almight research grant. More of the academic offerings are practical (health sciences, business, etc.) and for the student who wants to step out into the workforce at age 22 with a employable undergrad degree in hand while not killing themselves to maintain the academic/athletic experience, this may be the best path. Liberal arts aren't dead at these schools and in fact may be more personalized because of the non-research nature of most of these schools.
Specialty Schools
I'll create a special class for RPI and Northeastern. For the person who wants to play hockey and go to a pure "techie" school, there is not another school like RPI (Cornell fans can flame me now - but Cornell is more than an Engineering school). And for the ultimate in "practical" education, Northeastern's integrated internship programs for ALL majors prepare students for the real world of work in a way that no other school offering hockey can. You will need more than 4 year to do this, but those terms spent interning (for money usually) keep a student programmed year round and fully integrated in their goals at all times.
D3
NESCAC - Also as mentioned above - "mini-ivies", the undergraduate education you get at these schools is every bit as good (if not better) than the Ivies. They are liberal arts schools where you get the small class size and they are not about the research grant. They are smaller than the Ivies (for good and bad) and all are away from major cities (for good and bad). Their graduates are just as valued (equivalent schools compared between both groups) in employment and graduate school admissions. Financial aid works the same way - all need based - so if you find Plato more interesting than Pucks come sophomore year, there is no penalty box for your bank account. The campus cultures are also more "jock friendly" because a higher percentage of athletes play varsity sports at NESCAC schools than any other group of schools in the country. And while most average Americans don't recognized a Amherst or Williams diploma as an elite accomplishment like a sheepskin from Harvard or Yale, top employers and graduate school do recognize this and in fact understand that these students are at these schools more for the experience than the Ivy name.
2nd Tier State Universities
While there are not flagship schools in the D3 realm, there are some great 2nd tier State Universities with solid women's hockey programs. And for families with modest means, there are great deals to be found in both the SUNY and Wisconsin systems for out of state students - often LESS THAN in-state tution at home. Most have programs in the many "practical" degree programs and they are focused on the undergraduate student experience. And even if you are a top student, don't rule all of these schools out. Wisconsin Eau Claire has a Rhodes Scholar in its recent past, proving a school experience is what you make of it.
Private Schools
There are a variety of private schools in D3 ranging from schools dominated by practical programs to pure liberal arts colleges. The MIAC schools around the cities offer a small school (or medium in the case of St. Thomas) experience in the heart of a great city for young people. The value in most of these schools is finding an academic and living environment that more closely matches the needs of students who don't fit in at the large college. A program is only as successful in developing a student as the environment works with the student's particular needs.
Specialty Schools
Like D1, RIT (at least as long as it stays D3) is the techie school for the hockey player who wants that environment. There are also several women's colleges to be found as well. And for the young lady who wants to play NCAA hockey and dreams of going to West Point, Norwich has a Senior Military College (as well as civilian college), which like The Citadel and VMI offer a true "cadet" experience with a guaranteed commission in the armed forces for those who choose upon graduation.
Bottom line is that for every student it is important to match the career aspirations, academic qualification, and athletic achievement along to the learning environment if you want a satisfying and successful experience for your aspiring hockey player.
I'm sure I've offended a few by leaving out what makes their school special, although I had no intention of doing so. Considering my tagname, many would wonder how I came be familiar with so many schools. As I have mentioned, I work in higher education, but more importantly, I started touring schools many years ago, beginning in earnest on the trip to take my daughter to start 9th grade at a NE boardings school. Trips to and from school and to hockey tournaments all over the US offered constant opportunities to visit campuses over her high school years. Add in a couple summer extended tours to the upper midwest during breaks, and we've seen the campuses of more than a 1/3 of all D1 and D3 schools. I've also done a ton of online research and have been a regular on major college oriented forum going back well before we started campus tours.
And it has been a joy to have had the experience with my daughter. It was every bit as much an educational experience for both of us, both learning about schools and learning about what is important to my daughter as she discovers it for herself. We as parents can start with ideas of what we think our daughters will be when the grow up and how they will get there, but they will more than likely surprise you along the way and if you are not listening carefully, your actions will lead you down paths that aren't right. You need to expose them to a variety of opportunities, but ultimately it will be their decision on how to move their life forward. And it is our job at that point to let them go and cheer from the stands.
OnMAA
Vort Doen.....Heija Heija Heija
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Notfromaroundhere, as per usual most of your comments are spot on and very informative, however, as a parent of an Ivy student, and having seen and heard about players academic challenges at those schools, take issue with some of your comments. You said "if you try hard it is very difficult to get bad grades at an Ivy".....Aware of several players from two different ivy schools, that are struggling big time in class. The Ivies with their small class sizes and support systems will work hard to avoid this, but the students still have to achieve to merit the grades. This is definitely the case at the school my D is at. At her school, kids are challenged hard in many ways to think outside the box. This was a real struggle during the first year adjustment period, and not all students come out of it successfully at the end of year one.
Notfromaroundhere, as per usual most of your comments are spot on and very informative, however, as a parent of an Ivy student, and having seen and heard about players academic challenges at those schools, take issue with some of your comments. You said "if you try hard it is very difficult to get bad grades at an Ivy".....Aware of several players from two different ivy schools, that are struggling big time in class. The Ivies with their small class sizes and support systems will work hard to avoid this, but the students still have to achieve to merit the grades. This is definitely the case at the school my D is at. At her school, kids are challenged hard in many ways to think outside the box. This was a real struggle during the first year adjustment period, and not all students come out of it successfully at the end of year one.
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
My experience with Ivy-based players as well as non-athletes attending Ivy's suggests the grade inflation concept does exist, although I would agree with Onmaa that the grades are still acheivment based, not effort based. With that said, there are lots of A's and B's floating around in classrooms in Cambridge. The grade inflation helps the B+ student to acheive an A, but doesn't help the F student to matriculate.
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Nice summary. I don't find your generalizations to be offensive, but I think it is important to remember that they are just that and a student should not only compare schools, but also programs within schools. The optimum choice will not be the same for everyone, because luckily, we don't all want to be in the same place in 10 years. In this era of costly tuition, the sooner that one can decide on a vocation and major and stick to it, the quicker that their cash-flow can switch from negative to positive.
unofan
Well-known member
Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective
Was not an athlete, but at least at Dartmouth, the traditional "gentleman's C" was up around a B when I was there (the median grade for most classes was a B+). It was fairly tough to get a solid A absent a natural aptitude for the subject, but it was equally as tough to get a D or an F. You had to actively try to get either of those, by not doing any work, listening to any lectures, and skipping midterms/finals.
Also, FYI, to matriculate is to begin one's studies, not complete them...
Was not an athlete, but at least at Dartmouth, the traditional "gentleman's C" was up around a B when I was there (the median grade for most classes was a B+). It was fairly tough to get a solid A absent a natural aptitude for the subject, but it was equally as tough to get a D or an F. You had to actively try to get either of those, by not doing any work, listening to any lectures, and skipping midterms/finals.
Also, FYI, to matriculate is to begin one's studies, not complete them...