D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

[Cali]

I am brand new to this forum, although I have followed it for years. I recognize this as being a decent place for honest discussion to take place and as such, ask that you go easy on me if I am repeating something or am crossing a line somewhere.

My D is a '94 and is going through the recruiting process now for 2012. She has had interest from numerous D1 schools as well as some top tier D3 schools but no offers yet. Reality is is that if she does land with a D1 it will be a final spot at, presumably, a partial scholarship. Because D3's are calling now, I am guessing that it is because she is recognized as a top level D3 recruit, putting her square in the middle of the entire recruiting class

My question is, from a parents perspective, can D3 schools compete financially with partial D1 schollys? The Financial Aid process is very vague to me as I don't have a good understanding of how strictly it is enforced. Do D3 schools manipulate the Aid/Bursary/Merit scholarship process to increase their chances of attracting "top" D3 players? We are from Canada and know of some '93's that are attending D3 schools whose parents are financially well off, in good jobs/careers. I have no clue of their application process but know that the schools the girls are attending are comparable tuition wise to many D1 schools which is considerably more than what is available to them in Ontario.

This is not intended to be a joke question. I honestly would like to know a bit more of how the system works regarding costs. I don't know the parents well enough to ask them directly which is why I am posting here.

Any information available would be appreciated.

Cali

 

[PuckFan92]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Cali
I can offer some insight, similar situation. First it is a myth that D1 pays all the bills, few of the girls you see listed are getting 100%, most are getting a partial and some even high profile girls are getting zero athletic but may be getting other scholarship / grant / aid money. From what I have learned only the top couple girls from each schools wish list get 100% and as you know some D1 schools don't do athletic scholarships period. D3 is a whole different story, there is as many different "options" as there are schools. All offer some form of grant in aid or academic scholarship or as one coach put it "a clean dorm room scholarship".

We have found (financially) more options in D3 than D1. Amherst for instance advertises that they want no student to graduate with any student debt! They use endowments to offset cost and depending how bad they want you may influence that part of the equation. You will never get a school official to confirm that but that seems to be the case in D3. I have no idea how the schools on the fringe work like Holy Cross and Sacred Heart...

 

[Cali]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Cali
I can offer some insight, similar situation. First it is a myth that D1 pays all the bills, few of the girls you see listed are getting 100%, most are getting a partial and some even high profile girls are getting zero athletic but may be getting other scholarship / grant / aid money. From what I have learned only the top couple girls from each schools wish list get 100% and as you know some D1 schools don't do athletic scholarships period. D3 is a whole different story, there is as many different "options" as there are schools. All offer some form of grant in aid or academic scholarship or as one coach put it "a clean dorm room scholarship".

We have found (financially) more options in D3 than D1. Amherst for instance advertises that they want no student to graduate with any student debt! They use endowments to offset cost and depending how bad they want you may influence that part of the equation. You will never get a school official to confirm that but that seems to be the case in D3. I have no idea how the schools on the fringe work like Holy Cross and Sacred Heart...

Thanks PuckFan. If I understand correctly, is it safe to say that if the school wants you and money is the final ingredient then D3 schools can figure out a way to make it happen?

That would be encouraging if it were the case.

Cali

 

[WIrinkrat]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Thanks PuckFan. If I understand correctly, is it safe to say that if the school wants you and money is the final ingredient then D3 schools can figure out a way to make it happen?

That would be encouraging if it were the case.

Cali

That's not really how it is supposed to work...but it would be naive to think it doesn't happen from time to time. It's not supposed to be about "if the school wants you bad enough then x, y, and z will happen" it's supposed to be about "if said player meets x, y, and z requirements then they are eligible for x, y, and z aid...the same aid that ANY student meeting those requirements is eligible for, athlete or otherwise". There isn't supposed to be any extra fudging of the limits because someone is a good athlete.

Regardless of any shady financial inducements that may or may not be offered, it is still 100% accurate information that D3 programs can still be (legitimately so) a cheaper alternative to partial D1 scholarships in many if not most situations. I know it's easy for me or someone else to tell you as an outsider that the financials aren't the most important thing...but at the end of the day there needs to be as much if not more value placed on the overall experience your daughter wants to have. Assuming academics are equal at two schools, does she want a year round hockey commitment or is she maybe interested in some down time to focus on school or the opportunity to play a second sport? Does she want to be a big fish in a small pond or potentially a smaller fish in a big pond? Is she interested in things like studying abroad that may be more difficult to do as part of a D1 athletic experience? Those things are probably going to matter as much if not more in the long run...so if one option or the other really appeals and it is a few thousand dollars more to pursue it...it's probably worth giving serious consideration to ways to make it work!

 

[backcheck]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

My understanding is many schools are chasing the same group of select girls this early in the process. As top girls commit and some schools are unsuccessful, they will move to other girls on their list. Visit the schools, keep your options open and keep playing well and hopefully a good school will step up as things shake out.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

That's not really how it is supposed to work...but it would be naive to think it doesn't happen from time to time. It's not supposed to be about "if the school wants you bad enough then x, y, and z will happen" it's supposed to be about "if said player meets x, y, and z requirements then they are eligible for x, y, and z aid...the same aid that ANY student meeting those requirements is eligible for, athlete or otherwise". There isn't supposed to be any extra fudging of the limits because someone is a good athlete.

Regardless of any shady financial inducements that may or may not be offered, it is still 100% accurate information that D3 programs can still be (legitimately so) a cheaper alternative to partial D1 scholarships in many if not most situations. I know it's easy for me or someone else to tell you as an outsider that the financials aren't the most important thing...but at the end of the day there needs to be as much if not more value placed on the overall experience your daughter wants to have. Assuming academics are equal at two schools, does she want a year round hockey commitment or is she maybe interested in some down time to focus on school or the opportunity to play a second sport? Does she want to be a big fish in a small pond or potentially a smaller fish in a big pond? Is she interested in things like studying abroad that may be more difficult to do as part of a D1 athletic experience? Those things are probably going to matter as much if not more in the long run...so if one option or the other really appeals and it is a few thousand dollars more to pursue it...it's probably worth giving serious consideration to ways to make it work!

Good post. I'd like to add that your finances and your daughter's finances matter too. A friend of mine said that some top D1 and D3 schools wanted her daughter but they only offered partial scholarships at best. The family couldn't justify the cost because their daughter was bound and determined to be an elementary school teacher. With a school teacher's salary it would take forever to pay off such a debt. So I think its important to weigh the cost and the ability to pay the debt in the future too. I'm not sure how it works with Canadian kids but for US citizens ole George Bush changed the law so that you can't get rid of the debt even if you are destitute.

 

[PuckFan92]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Make no mistake; in no way did I intend to imply that if a school wanted your kid bad enough that they would “make it happen”. Understand rule one of college hockey especially on the women’s side but same holds true even for the men. Hockey is a non revenue sport in the world of college athletics, actually all sports (isolated cases excepted) are with the exceptions of major program men’s basketball and football. The only place you will truly find a coach “making it happen” is in one of those revenue sports.

If your daughter is a stand out player but poor student she will never make it, same for softball, track, soccer etc. What hockey can do is if she is a good student and a good forward and that school needs a forward, she may get a spot that her “good” grades alone would not have otherwise gotten her. That school may package aid in a number of ways to make it attractive enough to convince her to enroll; it is not shady or underhanded in any way. Look at it as hockey just opening another door just like a kid who was a member of the honor society or school class president in high school.

D1 and D2 sports are much more regulated by NCAA rule and that includes the number of teams, number of scholarships awarded and so on. Schools can roster kids who are paying their way to school but play D1 hockey. D3 is also regulated and is prohibited from offering athletic awards but is given more latitude to make aid awards outside of the athletic departments. NCAA eligibility requirements are significantly different for the divisions as well; D3 does not even require registering with the clearinghouse.

Your mileage may vary but you could find that there are some outstanding opportunities in women’s hockey at the D3 level at some pretty prestigious institutions .

 

[Cali]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Make no mistake; in no way did I intend to imply that if a school wanted your kid bad enough that they would “make it happen”. Understand rule one of college hockey especially on the women’s side but same holds true even for the men. Hockey is a non revenue sport in the world of college athletics, actually all sports (isolated cases excepted) are with the exceptions of major program men’s basketball and football. The only place you will truly find a coach “making it happen” is in one of those revenue sports.

If your daughter is a stand out player but poor student she will never make it, same for softball, track, soccer etc. What hockey can do is if she is a good student and a good forward and that school needs a forward, she may get a spot that her “good” grades alone would not have otherwise gotten her. That school may package aid in a number of ways to make it attractive enough to convince her to enroll; it is not shady or underhanded in any way. Look at it as hockey just opening another door just like a kid who was a member of the honor society or school class president in high school.

D1 and D2 sports are much more regulated by NCAA rule and that includes the number of teams, number of scholarships awarded and so on. Schools can roster kids who are paying their way to school but play D1 hockey. D3 is also regulated and is prohibited from offering athletic awards but is given more latitude to make aid awards outside of the athletic departments. NCAA eligibility requirements are significantly different for the divisions as well; D3 does not even require registering with the clearinghouse.

Your mileage may vary but you could find that there are some outstanding opportunities in women’s hockey at the D3 level at some pretty prestigious institutions .

I appreciate that. In the case of my D, she has grades that are good enough to get her in most schools, except Ivy, so the "make it happen" aspect that I referenced would be tied more to the financial side of things. In Canada there are very few private Universities. The majority of the CIS schools are government subsidized and cost between $14k and $20k for all expenses. There are Athletic bursaries available, typically $4k per year that are awarded annually, as well as academic awards based on an annual minimum standard of grades. All that being said, $10k to $15k is the target, if drawing comparisons. There are some fine CIS schools available and I would have no problem in all of my children attending many of them. That being said, hockey has opened a door for my D that she would like to walk through and I would love to see her take that walk.

It is really difficult though to rationalize the experience if the cost is not at least comparable to what it would be if she stayed in Canada. CIS schools typically do not pursue players at this time of year. They wait until the dust settles to see who is still available so as of now, when a player is being pursued, the pursuer becomes the central focus. I just don't have a clue what the financial expectations will be going forward. Can top D3 schools bring their $30k total cost figure down to $15k and hold it there for the four years?

 

[WIrinkrat]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Make no mistake; in no way did I intend to imply that if a school wanted your kid bad enough that they would “make it happen”. Understand rule one of college hockey especially on the women’s side but same holds true even for the men. Hockey is a non revenue sport in the world of college athletics, actually all sports (isolated cases excepted) are with the exceptions of major program men’s basketball and football. The only place you will truly find a coach “making it happen” is in one of those revenue sports.

I was not referring to blatantly breaking the norms of admissions to get a marginal student or person of marginal character in the door. I was talking about awarding excessive financial aid above and beyond what would normally be issued.

What hockey can do is if she is a good student and a good forward and that school needs a forward, she may get a spot that her “good” grades alone would not have otherwise gotten her. That school may package aid in a number of ways to make it attractive enough to convince her to enroll; it is not shady or underhanded in any way. Look at it as hockey just opening another door just like a kid who was a member of the honor society or school class president in high school.

This is incorrect. Hockey potentially opens 2 big doors at the D3 level:

1. She is either good enough or not good enough to play hockey for a given program.

2. She has the opportunity to learn about (and hopefully have a great experience) at a school that she may never have known about or considered had she not been recruited by the coaching staff.

Hockey ability, regardless of team needs or stature, is supposed to play the exact same role in the financial aid process at D3 as an athlete's ability to speak Latin, juggle knives, and whisper to dogs. The only aid she should be receiving at D3 is the EXACT same aid she would receive if she were just a regular student who had never put on skates in her life. Hockey plays no part in this at all. Schools are not flexible in their ability to package aid in a number of different ways to make it more attractive. What they have at their disposal for a regular student is the exact same that they have at their disposal for a hockey player.

I dont doubt coaches sometimes play to the egos of parents or players and try to disguise regular financial aid or academic aid as an extra boost that just their kid is getting...and heck I don't even doubt that some places intentionally (and probably some unintentionally) bend or break the rules outright...but this is what is SUPPOSED to happen.

D3 is also regulated and is prohibited from offering athletic awards but is given more latitude to make aid awards outside of the athletic departments.

As stated above, this is not accurate. A given school has their specific scholarships and guidelines and must present them in proportion to what a regular student gets. There is no latitude given based on awards from within or outside the athletic departments to provide to players based on athletic ability.

 

[goaliedad35]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Can top D3 schools bring their $30k total cost figure down to $15k and hold it there for the four years?

I am not sure what criteria you are using for "top" D3 schools but in my experience you won't find any that have a total cost of $30K. Think more in the $45-55K range without aid.

 

[WIrinkrat]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Can top D3 schools bring their $30k total cost figure down to $15k and hold it there for the four years?

Yes this is definitely within reason at many schools based on things such as academic profile and family need.

It is really difficult though to rationalize the experience if the cost is not at least comparable to what it would be if she stayed in Canada. CIS schools typically do not pursue players at this time of year. They wait until the dust settles to see who is still available so as of now, when a player is being pursued, the pursuer becomes the central focus. I just don't have a clue what the financial expectations will be going forward.

There is a lot to consider, that is for sure. I would only caution you and all parents not to discount a potential option solely on finances. Again I don't know your situation and every case is unique and different...but if it's her dream and the money is close, try to find a way. Obviously family needs may dictate otherwise, but if theres a way, try to help her find it. If the gap is huge, then obviously the other options may be more necessary.

There are just so many factors that go into the entire college hockey experience. The opportunity to be part of a diverse program with kids from all over North America and Europe rather than playing with and against the same kids they've been playing with and against for 10 years. The opportunity to potentially be further away from home and become more independent and self sufficient and gain confidence in their own ability to make decisions and function away from home. I'd also argue that other than at a program like McGill, the hockey at the top D3 programs is going to be better than at most of the Canadian programs. Nevermind just the caliber of competition, but the coaching is generally better because the coaches are typically full time, and some even have full time assistants whereas most Canadian coaches only have part time staff. College hockey is the closest thing that. Access to ice time is often better, facilities are better, and opportunities for off-ice instruction/training are better. NCAA hockey is the closest thing these girls will have to being professional athletes and having that level of experience..even at D3.

There are certainly several more great arguments for NCAA hockey, and I'm sure there are excellent arguments for staying close to home too...I've just seen and heard of too many people pass up on an opportunity that their daughter really wanted over a couple thousand dollars. I know not everyone can find ways to make it work, but some just write it off and don't even try.

 

[WIrinkrat]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

There are several schools that cost in the 30k range. They are mostly going to be public universities and not your Nescacs, but they are out there. Typically, the cheaper the school, the less aid they will be able to offer, and the bigger the price tag, the more you'll be able to get knocked off.

 

[Cali]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

I am not sure what criteria you are using for "top" D3 schools but in my experience you won't find any that have a total cost of $30K. Think more in the $45-55K range without aid.

I stand corrected. RIT - $42,500, Plattsburgh - $27,050, Elmira - $48,400, Norwich, $44,000. Yikes, it is going to be tough.

 

[goaliedad35]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Middlebury $55420, Bowdoin $57320, Amherst $60944

 

[obserbear]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Here is the link to the Bowdoin financial aid web page: http://www.bowdoin.edu/studentaid/index.shtml
Here is a link to the Bowdoin athletics web page: http://athletics.bowdoin.edu/landing/index# This page lets you tour the facilities (Watson Arena is worth a look) and even supplies a prospective student questionnaire!

 

[Trillium]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

I stand corrected. RIT - $42,500, Plattsburgh - $27,050, Elmira - $48,400, Norwich, $44,000. Yikes, it is going to be tough.

Cali, I am also from Canada, and know of many students who have gone through the financial aid process at U.S. schools, at both DI and D3 programs. Obviously, it is impossible to give a one-size-fits-all answer as to whether you can get the cost of a U.S.
option to be roughly equivalent to a Canadian program. How much you can shave off the $30,000-$60,000 cost of a U.S. education will depend on (1) how strong she is academically (2) what your family financial situation is (3) the school you wish to attend

What I can say with certainty is that too many Canadian parents prematurely dismiss their chances or at least grossly underestimate the financial aid that they can receive from U.S. schools. Most Ontario parents think of OSAP when they think of financial aid, and assume if they would get little to no funds from OSAP, they won't qualify for U.S. financial aid. This could not be more wrong, because you are comparing apples and oranges. OSAP entitlements are low BECAUSE the university system in Canada is public, and education is already heavily subsidized to make it affordable to most families without this type of "extra help". In the U.S., where many/most universities are private, as much as 60% of the student body receives some form of financial aid from the school, and even the average aid packages at some schools are equivalent to more than half the cost. Financial aid is funded from a combination of endowments funded by alumni and other wealthy benefactors (which are significantly greater in general than at Canadian schools), and the much higher tuition rates charged (so the richest families paying "full freight" help support the "middle class", as well as the truly needy). That is why your financial aid packages are comparatively much more generous in the U.S. and will tend to be even more generous at the schools with the largest endowments and highest tuition rates (ie. higher profile Ivys, NESCACs).

I can also tell you for sure that a majority of Canadians I am aware of who are now attending D1 and D3 schools on financial aid packages are doing so at a cost comparable to--and in MANY, MANY cases significantly less than--what they would have spent to attend a comparable school at home.

The best advice I can give is to keep an open mind. Go through the process with the U.S. schools you are interested in, assuming that it may be a viable option financially--until you find out that given your individual situation it won't. As long as you continue to consider good Canadian options at the same time, you have nothing to lose by doing so. As you said yourself, the Canadian schools will still be there in the spring looking for good players.

 

[Trillium]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

I stand corrected. RIT - $42,500, Plattsburgh - $27,050, Elmira - $48,400, Norwich, $44,000. Yikes, it is going to be tough.

Cali, I am also from Canada, and know of many students who have gone through the financial aid process at U.S. schools, at both DI and D3 programs. Obviously, it is impossible to give a one-size-fits-all answer as to whether you can get the cost of a U.S.
option to be roughly equivalent to a Canadian program. How much you can shave off the $30,000-$60,000 cost of a U.S. education will depend on (1) how strong she is academically (2) what your family financial situation is (3) the school you wish to attend

What I can say with certainty is that too many Canadian parents prematurely dismiss their chances or at least grossly underestimate the financial aid that they can receive from U.S. schools. Most Ontario parents think of OSAP when they think of financial aid, and assume if they would get little to no funds from OSAP, they won't qualify for U.S. financial aid. This could not be more wrong, because you are comparing apples and oranges. OSAP entitlements are low BECAUSE the university system in Canada is public, and education is already heavily subsidized to make it affordable to most families without this type of "extra help". In the U.S., where many/most universities are private, as much as 60% of the study body receives some form of financial aid from the school, and even the average aid packages at some schools are equivalent to more than half the cost. Financial aid is funded from a combination of endowments funded by alumni and other wealthy benefactors (which are significantly greater in general than at Canadian schools), and the much higher tuition rates charged (so the richest families paying "full freight" help support the more average ones). That is why your financial aid packages are comparatively much more generous in the U.S. and will tend to be even more generous at the schools with the largest endowments and highest tuition rates (ie. higher profile Ivys, NESCACs).

I can tell you for certain that a majority of Canadians now attending D1 and D3 schools on financial aid packages are doing so at acost comparable to--and in MANY, MANY cases significantly less than--what they would have spent to attend a comparable school at home.

The best advice I can give is to keep an open mind. Go through the process with the U.S. schools you are interested in, assuming that it may be a viable option financially--until you find out that given your individual situation it won't. As long as you continue to consider good Canadian options at the same time, you have nothing to lose by doing so. As you said yourself, the Canadian schools will still be there in the spring looking for good players.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

I appreciate that. In the case of my D, she has grades that are good enough to get her in most schools, except Ivy, so the "make it happen" aspect that I referenced would be tied more to the financial side of things. In Canada there are very few private Universities. The majority of the CIS schools are government subsidized and cost between $14k and $20k for all expenses. There are Athletic bursaries available, typically $4k per year that are awarded annually, as well as academic awards based on an annual minimum standard of grades. All that being said, $10k to $15k is the target, if drawing comparisons. There are some fine CIS schools available and I would have no problem in all of my children attending many of them. That being said, hockey has opened a door for my D that she would like to walk through and I would love to see her take that walk.

It is really difficult though to rationalize the experience if the cost is not at least comparable to what it would be if she stayed in Canada. CIS schools typically do not pursue players at this time of year. They wait until the dust settles to see who is still available so as of now, when a player is being pursued, the pursuer becomes the central focus. I just don't have a clue what the financial expectations will be going forward. Can top D3 schools bring their $30k total cost figure down to $15k and hold it there for the four years?

Cali...Welcome aboard...Many others have already responded with some great advice....like you from Ontario....We had two daughters go through this process, with one landing in the CIS (OUA) and the other at a D1 school....Advice item number one is AAA...Which is not the level of hockey you play, but it is All About Academics FIRST. Three points to make on that front....First, If your D has good grades it opens up so many more doors at many schools with Academic Aid and easier entrance through the front door...Secondly, The grades and what you like to study is a much more important criteria in school selection than the hockey experience, some will never play all four years, and sometimes injuries and chance of heart shortens the college playing career...Thirdly, your studies are your lifeline for the rest of your career, if hockey does not work out you have at least that to fall on, if hockey does not work out and you are in the wrong school program wise, that would be like a kiss of death, hard for a young adult to handle.....

As Trillium already noted....Do your homework....Have your D make short list of all the D1/D3 and CIS schools she is interested in that have a program that fits her needs and desires, and then contact each of these schools coaches/recruiters, and work out your options from there. If you have D1 in your sights, make sure your SAT/ACT scores are in the books early. Good scores on those front will do wonders for opening doors. Lots of things chance at the D1 level between now and mid October, as kids start to commit. Many schools will only be interested in you if you are interested in them and often won't discuss money until you either come for a visit, or indicate that they are your first or second/third choice. Don't mislead the schools. Scouts talk to each other all the time. If you can get into a good academic school with a good FA program, that can be better long term than a scholly school who might offer a good deal for year one and/or two, but less in later years. You already know the cost of the OUA, it is pretty much a fixed variable. For one of our D's CIS was a better deal than D3 overall. She did not take the cheapest option, but instead took the one that she liked the best, which costs us about 5K/year more. It was worth it. She played hockey, graduated and is now in med school. For our other D, D1 was a more viable option, partly because her older sis was already in college (better FA), and that is the route she took.

Good luck... It is a long and arduous process with many many variables, and it is important to make a well educated decision.

 

[Trillium]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

For our other D, D1 was a more viable option, partly because her older sis was already in college (better FA), and that is the route she took.

Good luck... It is a long and arduous process with many many variables, and it is important to make a well educated decision.

OnMAA raises another great point I had forget to mention, which will also be a significant variable affecting the size of your financial aid package. That is, the number of children you will have in college (or even, to a lesser extent, paying private school tuition for). If you have two kids who will be attending college at the same time, you may only be expected to pay about half as much as if you only had one.

 

[canadahockey26]

Re: D1 vs D3: From a Parent's Perspective

Going through the D3 process and being from Canada we had the cost of tuition reduced by well over 50%. My D came into the school with top marks and having been already accepted to all of the top Canadian Universities. She also scored in the top 10% on the SAT. After this she was rewarded a large international student scholarship (based on marks), a school scholarship that she won for writing an excellent essay, and an entrance scholarship based on having high marks. She then went through the school's financial aid process and was awarded even more money. All of this was based on having top marks, and the small American private university she decided to go to was much more willing to give out money than the large Canadian institutions. Most of these private colleges are sitting on a lot more extra spending money than the Canadian universities. Have your D apply for any scholarship that she hears of through the school. It really helps take off the cost. We ended not needing to take out any loans for our D to attend school.