D1 or D3 ??

[Plugger]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

You bring in another set of issues that make a boy's choice clearly different. With the girls, there is no professional path after college. With boys, there is a path. So, in addition to finding the right school, the right coach, the right roster, etc., the boys also have to factor in their chances of advancing into a professional career, and have to decide which program gives them the best shot. I know many cases where this issue was more important to the player than the academics. Hypothetically if a boy turns down a bottom of the roster spot at Notre Dame in order to play 1st line at a lesser academic institution, nobody bats an eyelash because he's taking his best shot at getting to the next level. But, if a girl turns down a bottom of the roster spot at BC to get a regular shift at SCSU, people question her priorities. (I don't mean to impune St. Cloud by the way, I'm just using that as an example of my point.) IMHO this is not gender bias or a double standard, its because of the career opportunities available to the boys.

Do you know how many boys in college get drafted, or play in the minors, or over in Europe?? Very few. I would guess less than 2%, but maybe someone has that statistic. My guess is, if you are at the bottom of a good team and go to a weaker team to get playing time, your chances of making a career at hockey are minimal at best. In fact the only way might be coaching and not playing.

 

[spike]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

Do you know how many boys in college get drafted, or play in the minors, or over in Europe?? Very few. I would guess less than 2%, but maybe someone has that statistic. My guess is, if you are at the bottom of a good team and go to a weaker team to get playing time, your chances of making a career at hockey are minimal at best. In fact the only way might be coaching and not playing.

Yes but you miss my point. 99% of the boys entering college may have no legitimate shot at the NHL, but 50% of them think they do. I thought the discussion was about how kids prioritize in selecting colleges. I'm merely suggesting that boys have a different set of priorities, even if I agree with you about their likelihood of success.

 

[Plugger]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

Yes but you miss my point. 99% of the boys entering college may have no legitimate shot at the NHL, but 50% of them think they do. I thought the discussion was about how kids prioritize in selecting colleges. I'm merely suggesting that boys have a different set of priorities, even if I agree with you about their likelihood of success.

I understand an agree with you. Too bad some of those kids, and probably their parents, think they have a chance to make it big and choose a college based on playing time and not academics, when really they do not have a chance to play any more hockey after college except bar leagues.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

I understand an agree with you. Too bad some of those kids, and probably their parents, think they have a chance to make it big and choose a college based on playing time and not academics, when really they do not have a chance to play any more hockey after college except bar leagues.

Not sure where your located Plugger but in Calgary Alberta their is an extremley competative women's league which vies for cities, zone and Provincial Championships each year. Many of these gals have come back to their hometown after their college stint, to work and raise a famliy. As the colleges churn out better players this translates into a steady stream of well seasoned female hockey players returning each year who continue to have a strong desire to compete and play the game at a relativley high level.

I'd agree there is likley a few beer on ice in the dressing room from time to time... but this hockey is far from Bar?/Beer leagues.

They even backcheck, can you imagine?

As parents...Isn't that really what we wanted to have happen anyway? Give our kids a chance to compete, have fun, socialize and enjoy the game for as long as they chose. I know it is and will continue to be my philosiphy.

 

[spike]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

Not sure where your located Plugger but in Calgary Alberta their is an extremley competative women's league which vies for cities, zone and Provincial Championships each year. Many of these gals have come back to their hometown after their college stint, to work and raise a famliy. As the colleges churn out better players this translates into a steady stream of well seasoned female hockey players returning each year who continue to have a strong desire to compete and play the game at a relativley high level.

I'd agree there is likley a few beer on ice in the dressing room from time to time... but this hockey is far from Bar?/Beer leagues.

They even backcheck, can you imagine?

As parents...Isn't that really what we wanted to have happen anyway? Give our kids a chance to compete, have fun, socialize and enjoy the game for as long as they chose. I know it is and will continue to be my philosiphy.

Nothing wrong with anything you say in this post, but tell us your opinion about how this philosophy impacts the college you think your daughter should attend. Where do competition, fun, socialization, and enjoyment fit on the list of priorities with academics?

 

[Plugger]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

While I am happy that there is competive hockey after college in Alberta, my point is I actually hope any child would want to pick a school based on how the academics will assist them after school. Clearly, having a chance to compete, have fun, socialize and enjoy the game for as long as they choose, plays a factor in choosing a school, but ultimately what and how they do academically will be most important in developing a successful career outside of hockey.

 

[ARM]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

This type of discussion can get very complex, because there are so many factors and what is right for one person is not necessarily right for the other. I do not mean in any way to belittle D-III sports. The philosophy is to place a different emphasis on athletics than at D-I, and it is wonderful that the students have multiple choices.

But for some players, D-I represents a challenge that they desire to take on. I had the opportunity to interview Gopher alum Whit Graft as she wrapped up her career, and she made a couple of points that are pertinent to both sides of this discussion. She said that she had no idea how hard it would be to play barely at all as a frosh. But by the end of her career when she finished as a team captain and a full-time player as a senior, she took pride in her accomplishments and proving those who said that she should have gone to a less competitive program wrong. Jaimie Horton's story at Minnesota has been similar: played little as a rookie; broke her leg and missed much of her sophomore season; played much more as a junior and looks poised to play full time as a senior.

Life presents so many different options for challenges, and it is an individual choice as to which of them to take on. No matter what one decides, there will be somebody second guessing the decision. IMO, the only wrong decision is to attempt to avoid all of the challenges.

 

[spike]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

This type of discussion can get very complex, because there are so many factors and what is right for one person is not necessarily right for the other. I do not mean in any way to belittle D-III sports. The philosophy is to place a different emphasis on athletics than at D-I, and it is wonderful that the students have multiple choices.

But for some players, D-I represents a challenge that they desire to take on. I had the opportunity to interview Gopher alum Whit Graft as she wrapped up her career, and she made a couple of points that are pertinent to both sides of this discussion. She said that she had no idea how hard it would be to play barely at all as a frosh. But by the end of her career when she finished as a team captain and a full-time player as a senior, she took pride in her accomplishments and proving those who said that she should have gone to a less competitive program wrong. Jaimie Horton's story at Minnesota has been similar: played little as a rookie; broke her leg and missed much of her sophomore season; played much more as a junior and looks poised to play full time as a senior.

Life presents so many different options for challenges, and it is an individual choice as to which of them to take on. No matter what one decides, there will be somebody second guessing the decision. IMO, the only wrong decision is to attempt to avoid all of the challenges.

Great post ARM. I've re-read all the posts in this thread, and they all seem to focus on justification for going D-I instead of D-III. There seems to be a belief that D-I equals better hockey. Let me approach it from the other side of the coin and see if anyone disagrees. Suppose there is a girl out there who plays for Amherst. Suppose she has D-I skills. She is majoring in a field where having a top-3 liberal arts degree really matters. The academic side of her decision to go to Amherst is obvious. But did she really suffer on the competition/commitment side of things? Did she really give up something of importance? Amherst's women hockey players are probably more dedicated to practice and training than many D-I players. Plus, i am quite sure that over the course of a season my hypothetical Amherst player gets more competitive satisfaction than any of the D-I players at a school like Niagra.

 

[HockeyDman]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

Let's not forget that there are several levels of professional hockey. And I know of two great stories where two boys wanted to play division I hockey and we're accepted by DI schools but were told they would most likely be a third or fourth line player. Their deciding factor was they didn't want to be sitting on the bench, they wanted to play the game they love, and last season both played in the NHL, one for the Washington Capitals and the other the NY Islanders. Both graduated from Norwich University, Keith Aucoin and Kurtis Mclean. There are several DIII schools that have the facilities and resources of a DI school. Also, both of them won a Division III National Championship.

Which brings me to my question, would you rather have your son or daughter have the opportunity to win a national championship at a DIII school or be a middle of the pack DI program? My take on this is that the players debating between playing for a DI or DIII team, are most likely to be a third or fourth line player on a DI team or they could go the DIII route and be an All-American. Which would you rather be, a big fish in a little pond or a little fish in a big pond?

 

[AP_Hockey]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

Great post ARM. I've re-read all the posts in this thread, and they all seem to focus on justification for going D-I instead of D-III. There seems to be a belief that D-I equals better hockey. Let me approach it from the other side of the coin and see if anyone disagrees. Suppose there is a girl out there who plays for Amherst. Suppose she has D-I skills. She is majoring in a field where having a top-3 liberal arts degree really matters. The academic side of her decision to go to Amherst is obvious. But did she really suffer on the competition/commitment side of things? Did she really give up something of importance? Amherst's women hockey players are probably more dedicated to practice and training than many D-I players. Plus, i am quite sure that over the course of a season my hypothetical Amherst player gets more competitive satisfaction than any of the D-I players at a school like Niagra.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, spike. Great post! IMHO, probably the best post i've ever seen on this forum! Most people don't understand that those DIII top teams are incredibly competitive, and can get a LOT more out of the sport than many of the DI bottom feeders.

 

[Radar3535]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

A lot of the points made so far have been spot on. Also there is that "broken leg" scenario. Say you break your leg during the beginning of the season or during the season and can't play the rest of the year. Would you be happy at the school as a student? I would hope so if you already made your decision to attend. But again would you be happy to be a student of your school? Would you be ok with (for the time being hopefully) being a "normal" student? I took that into consideration when I chose what school I ended up playing D1.

Or a career ending injury, that prevents you from playing the game you loved since a very young age. After spending countless hours almost half of your life to reach one of your goals, you can no longer play college hockey or work towards any of your other hockey goals. Now while dealing with the emotional side of this event( someone once said" athletes die two deaths...") are you at a school that you will be happy while learning to adjust to a new lifestyle?
Many will read this and think this won't happen to us( I say "us" because parents are affected as well). I hope to god you're right!!! The odds of it happening may be the same as winning the lottery. But I would strongly suggest, as hard as it may to think about, that everyone pondering college athletics consider the scenario before so that you may not be very disappointed later.

 

[WFR]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

Or a career ending injury, that prevents you from playing the game you loved since a very young age. After spending countless hours almost half of your life to reach one of your goals, you can no longer play college hockey or work towards any of your other hockey goals. Now while dealing with the emotional side of this event( someone once said" athletes die two deaths...") are you at a school that you will be happy while learning to adjust to a new lifestyle?
Many will read this and think this won't happen to us( I say "us" because parents are affected as well). I hope to god you're right!!! The odds of it happening may be the same as winning the lottery. But I would strongly suggest, as hard as it may to think about, that everyone pondering college athletics consider the scenario before so that you may not be very disappointed later.

Amen, please look at the school without athletics. Just in case !

 

[ARM]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

Suppose there is a girl out there who plays for Amherst. Suppose she has D-I skills. She is majoring in a field where having a top-3 liberal arts degree really matters. The academic side of her decision to go to Amherst is obvious. But did she really suffer on the competition/commitment side of things? Did she really give up something of importance?

That last question can't really be answered, because what is important to one hypothetical girl may not be as important to another. For example, if the dream or goal were to play in the Olympics rather than play D-I, I think that most would be able to easily relate to it. But what does a person get for Olympic competition? Mostly, intangible benefits like a lifetime of memories. Those memories have to matter to that person for it to be worth the years of dedication and sacrifice that went into achieving that goal. Similarly, if a player has always wanted to compete in D-I, none of us can say that dream is or is not justified -- it must be her decision.

People sometimes question a decision to attend a certain school because that is where a significant other is attending. But if 50 years later, the two are happily married, who can say that was the wrong path to take? There are so many choices and so many factors enter into them, that only the student athlete herself can determine right or wrong. Others can give advice, but utlimately, she has to make the decisions because she will be the one most effected.

 

[Radar3535]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

That last question can't really be answered, because what is important to one hypothetical girl may not be as important to another. For example, if the dream or goal were to play in the Olympics rather than play D-I, I think that most would be able to easily relate to it. But what does a person get for Olympic competition? Mostly, intangible benefits like a lifetime of memories. Those memories have to matter to that person for it to be worth the years of dedication and sacrifice that went into achieving that goal. Similarly, if a player has always wanted to compete in D-I, none of us can say that dream is or is not justified -- it must be her decision.

People sometimes question a decision to attend a certain school because that is where a significant other is attending. But if 50 years later, the two are happily married, who can say that was the wrong path to take? There are so many choices and so many factors enter into them, that only the student athlete herself can determine right or wrong. Others can give advice, but utlimately, she has to make the decisions because she will be the one most effected.

Greatly appreciated!

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: D1 or D3 ??

Nothing wrong with anything you say in this post, but tell us your opinion about how this philosophy impacts the college you think your daughter should attend. Where do competition, fun, socialization, and enjoyment fit on the list of priorities with academics?

Well, I may have been off topic here however I was speaking to the comment that once college athletics are over there are opportunities to continue at a highly competative level, not everyone will be relegated to the beer leagues.

With respect to how this impacts college selection, for some it likley has no influence at all. In our particular case however the coach and the hockey program ranked fairly high on the decision making scale. Everyone is different and to put an answer to the question...competition, fun, socialization and enjoyment were ultimatley at the top of the list. If you are able to accomplish these things during your college years the academics will fall into place.

Strictly from the academic viewpoint it appeared that the liberal arts curriculum from one school to another didn't seem that dissimiliar. Most offered the same courses etc.

It therefore came down to where she felt most comfortable, the coach, the hockey program, the size of campus and the student/prof ratio. In that particular order...