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D-Day 74 years on

Re: D-Day 74 years on

While possible, I don't see a protracted UK/US/Soviet war. In an alternative timeline where the Germans are stopped cold on the Western front, the Soviets sue for peace. They allied with Hitler because they needed time to relocate industry and build up there forces (and restock their officer corps after Stalin's purges) in preparation for the eventual German attack. The German war aim was explicitly to expand eastward, ahem depopulate the natives, and repopulate with happy, pink-cheeked German hausfrau baby machines: Manifest Destiny except the victims are white so it's tragic. The Russian war aim was to pick up a handful of small fry satellites (Finland, the Baltic states, eastern Poland) and then survive the German assault. With Germany knocked out there's no longer any Russian war aim. They/re not worried about spreading the blessings of Soviet Socialism to the West because Marx and Lenin have told them that's historically inevitable. They just want to heal and infiltrate the West, like The Thing.

Under the circumstances I cannot see the UK and US pursuing the European war, with their hands full with Japan. Also Uncle Joe will want in on that action to maybe pick up some territory of his own in the east.

You are thinking too late- if the Soviets stopped Germany early, like way before Moscow being threatened and Stalingrad- before we could really get into the war- their resources would have easily been enough to take all of Europe. That's what I'm talking about. Thankfully for the world, Stalin had huge purges in the 30's, which decimated his ability to wage war on a short term basis. Between that and the millions of people they lost during the war, they had no way to do anything but hold what they had for many years.

But that is all revisionist history.
 
Up until Barbarossa, the USSR was a foe, not an ally. Britain and France seriously considered sending forces to Finland when Russia invaded in the winter of '39-40. And they did also consider bombing the Soviet oil fields to prevent Germany from getting it. Much of that didn't happen thanks to Chamberlain, as he never wanted to go to war, and any offense against Germany was very frowned on.

So letting the USSR kill itself during the war was very planned. Had that not happened, or had Germany lost early- the war probably would have continued- with fighting between the Soviets and the West.

Interesting side note: Allen Dulles was serving in the OSS in Bern Switzerland in 43-45. It was quite intentional that he was not in Britain or Italy where his activities could be closely monitored.

Dulles reached out to Karl Wolff, Goering’s 2nd and told him he was acting with FDR’s approval, he offered the Germans should sue for peace, the nazi regime could survive but hitler would have to go. Then he proffered the U.S. and Germany could team up to destroy the communists. An incredible act of sedition on Dulles’ part.

Imagine a world where that actually came to fruition...shudder to think.

Dulles also had JP Morgan, John J McCloy and over 200 American bankers aiding Germany to the tune of 9 digit millions during the war and afterward when the army found out bankers and imprisoned them, Dulles got them out. He was also instrumental in operation paperclip.

I sometimes wonder, what would Dick Winters or Bill Guarnere think of all of that?

Anyway, the above is detailed in David Talbot’s book The Devil’s Chessboard.
 
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Re: D-Day 74 years on

You are thinking too late- if the Soviets stopped Germany early, like way before Moscow being threatened and Stalingrad- before we could really get into the war- their resources would have easily been enough to take all of Europe. That's what I'm talking about. Thankfully for the world, Stalin had huge purges in the 30's, which decimated his ability to wage war on a short term basis. Between that and the millions of people they lost during the war, they had no way to do anything but hold what they had for many years.

No, I'm thinking far, far earlier, back when the Soviets are allied with Germany. Let's assume everything proceeds just as in OTL until May 1940. Say the Germans get bogged down and never make it to Paris, just as in WW1. The Western Front stagnates again. The British have time to land additional troops on the continent, France never surrenders, and gradually Germany begins to lose ground in the West.

Well, now, the Soviets have a dilemma. They've just executed the Katyn Massacre so they are committed in Poland. They've got the Baltic States. They are still hungry to expand into Romania and Turkey but they haven't committed to the Tripartite Pact yet. Britain had betrayed Poland by not declaring war against the USSR when it invaded Poland (France did not, interestingly, because the Franco-Polish treaty was specifically against German invasion). Germany looks like a bad bet as an ally, and the Russians never intended a longterm alliance anyway since they were just buying time.

I think the Russians are in a great negotiating position in this event. They can stab Hitler in the back with no prior negotiation with Churchill and fight the Wehrmacht in Poland rather than on Russian soil. It becomes a race to Berlin between Russia and the UK and France. Basically, it's 1944 but without the Russians devastated by Barbarossa and without the US helping the allies. Or they can hold that card and negotiate with Churchill. If Winston doesn't come through with their demands they declare neutrality and give the Germans a peaceful eastern front, allowing them to transfer all their forces west. Their demands can be modest and just concentrate on strategic advantages with regard to Central Asia. Think about what the Russians can do in the east if left without their hands tied by Germany? They lost to the Japanese early in the century and are smarting from it, and they can "liberate" Manchuria and link up with their fellow communist forces in China. World Socialism is on the march!

WW2 is limited in scope to the boundaries of WW1. The Japanese invasion of China remains an undercard bout that never links up with the main event. Maybe there are lessons learned in how to treat Germany but more likely the surrender terms are more Draconian and the Reich is broken up into independent historical states (Bavaria, Hanover, Prussia, Austria, Saxony). France and the UK survive Hitler without utter devastation and emerge still as global economic rivals of the US. The German Problem is finally solved. Russia plays the same electoral games in the Eastern European states in order to control a Warsaw Pact buffer, this time against the still strong European imperial states rather than Germany. Everybody hopes Europe can calm down again and enjoy a post-war peace like the 19th century with the German irritant removed.

To top it off, 6 million Jews don't die and we don't wind up with Israel because the West likely props up Turkey and the Arab states as a bulwark against Russian incursion into the Middle East oil fields. Maybe we even go into the Caliphate business!
 
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Re: D-Day 74 years on

That's a scenario I've not really thought about.

But I see two paths...

If things are exactly as they are. Seeing how the Russians totally failed in Finland- they barely won against a force that was nothing relative to what they had... I can't see them doing much against the Germans that remained on the eastern front. So IF the French and Brits were able to use their superior numbers in the west, it's far more likely (to me) that they would be able to rush into Germany faster than the Soviets. Of course, not rush, but get there. It took the Soviets a few years and millions of dead to figure out how to fight a war again.

On the other hand, if Stalin didn't have the purges in the 30's. Then they would have more of a proper military structure based on skill and not who you know after an opening magically opened up. The odds of them being able to use what they had years before would be much higher. That would have been a pretty epic war. To the point that it WOULD have opened up the fight in Asia (remember that the Soviets did beat Japan in a brief fight '39, I think).

Lots of coulda going on there.
 
Re: D-Day 74 years on

On the other hand, if Stalin didn't have the purges in the 30's. Then they would have more of a proper military structure based on skill and not who you know after an opening magically opened up. The odds of them being able to use what they had years before would be much higher. That would have been a pretty epic war. To the point that it WOULD have opened up the fight in Asia (remember that the Soviets did beat Japan in a brief fight '39, I think).

I think if Stalin had not decapitated the Russian high command the army would probably have eventually led a coup to remove the Bolshies from power. The army was always a deeply conservative institution and a threat to Stalin in particular and the Politburo in general. Authoritarian regimes do not survive without military backing which is why the vast majority of them are right wing. Only in places where national identity is born with anti-imperialist revolutionary sentiment (the Third World) can you have a really good leftist totalitarian state.

And of course if the Russian army removes the communists by force in the 1940s, world history is completely changed. Russia could wind up looking a lot like Bismark's Prussia: an army using a nation-state as a means of subsistence.
 
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