Covfefe-19 The 12th Part: The Only Thing Worse Than This New Board Is TrumpVirus2020

[Handyman]

No there aren't, the anti-vax liberals are down in the noise.

I dont know what you mean by "down in the noise" but they are in the exact same spots the Trumper HCQ morons are sharing the same articles talking about it the same way. Hell the fact that FDA came out and said it doesnt help made them even more bold because they dont trust ANYTHING the FDA says.

They are outnumbered...but they exist in much bigger numbers than you want to believe.

 

[dxmnkd316]

He appears to think herd immunity is around 30%, and that's why China, South Korea and Italy improved, ignoring the draconian lockdown acts those three countries enforced. So he's kind of hit and miss.

30% is still 500,000-1,000,000 dead.

 

[Handyman]

With respect to your dad, he should do what my folks (both in their 80's) are doing. He should be careful. Wear a mask. Limit his time in public. Limit the number of people he visits, or that he allows to visit him. Probably all of the things he is doing.

With respect to the people under the age of 70, yes, there are people under 70 who get the disease, people who have terrible lingering effects from the disease, or who even die from the disease.

But, those numbers are significantly different than the risks to those over 70.

All I am saying is that you have to look at the actual number of those people and at least consider that as against the cost of the preventative measures.

My dad takes all of the correct precautions...the problem is the rest of the people around cant be trusted to do it. (he still has to work because they have almost no savings) According to the Party of Personal Responsibility he should be willing to risk that to make sure things get back up and running. We believe that is bullshit.

I dont care if my risk factors are minimal (I am reasonably healthy and take the necessary precautions) if I want to see my father I have to act like I am at risk at all times. Which means when I see people bitching and moaning because they have to wear a mask at Costco I want to kick them in the nuts. That is why as much as it sucks for my friends in the restaurant business (and me, I will lose about 19k in bartending revenue this year because of COVID), we should have not opened them when we did. (thankfully we havent been burned by it as bad as FL and TX have been) People are needlessly dying because half this country cant be bothered to do the right thing.

You called me coldhearted once because I was willing to let a bunch of small businesses fail. (ironically my dad said similar only about the riots) I dont want anyone to fail...but I want people to live. Human Life >>>>>>>>>>> Bob's Pull Tab and Hooker Sports Bar in Bumbphikistan, Wisconsin. And it isnt just about the people that go to the bar, it is about the people they infect when they go there. Look at all the people who get it at church...or family gatherings. We are a society, as such we have a responsibility to protect EVERYONE...not just those we deem to be young enough they have a future. And while my heart bleeds for small business owners who do the right thing and take the necessary precautions, the truth is their business is not more important than the lives of the average citizen. They can get another job...my mom cant get another life long friend to replace the one COVID took from her.

 

[SJHovey]

Whoops. My bad again. Either way, my entirely unimportant opinion on the matter still stands.

Didn’t you post back in March it was a friend who broached the subject about how many lives saved would be required in order to justify shutting down the economy, decimating many places, including a slew of minority-owned business? You asked then yourself what number of lives would it, in fact, take. I don’t remember your answer.

I do remember my friend asking me that, but I don't remember my specific post about it. I assume you or rufus have it saved somewhere and are ready to trot it out at a moments notice.

What was my number? I don't think it was the 20,000 figure because I think that was my guess on the deaths.

I have just always thought that the media, and a lot of people here, lose track of scale.

What if CNN each night started with, "OMG, 8000 people died in the US again today. What is that, 12,000 days in a row?"

I think I remember reading somewhere that something like 60 million people die each year in the world. My response was something like, "WTF, 60 million people?!?!" It's an incomprehensible number.

1800 people died of heart disease in the US yesterday. And the day before. And the day before that, and so on.

Yeah, it's all tragic when people die. It sucks when it's a loved one or a friend. But a little perspective is useful, too. I don't suggest that we all go cower in Trump's bunker because death is stalking us.

 

[Handyman]

Don't we do this every day in this country, and all around the world?

We don't ban autos, we don't ban airplanes, we let people go out on fishing boats, we let people work on oil rigs. In doing so we know people will die as a consequence of our decisions. We don't want them to die. We try to take steps to minimize the chances of it happening.

We make those economic decisions all the time.

Yes we do...but we also regulate the things that are dangerous to mitigate the risks. We didnt do that here. We didnt even do a cost benefit analysis of what needed to be done. We could have gone into a real shut down with UBI/PPP to protect people and companies and come out cheaper and better off. We also would have saved tens of thousands of lives. And this isnt hindsight, it is the stuff people were saying in friggin April!

If this disease only hurt the infected you would have a better point. But there is no comparison between the dangers you are mentioning and this pandemic. If I die in a plane crash, unless my dad is on the plane he isnt catching it.

If the decision of someone puts others at risk, they dont get to do it. That is just how it works.

edit: As you said in another post people die in large amounts every day. But if my dad has another heart attack that is tragic just like if he dies from COVID. The difference is most likely if he dies of Heart Disease or a stroke it is because of choices he made. Also my mom wont be at risk. If he gets COVID because some dipshit had to get a few drinks at the bar and spread it at his job he is not the only one at risk. Everyone in that case was preventable. My dad might have done everything right but someone else's bad decisions doomed him.

 

[Handyman]

Because as you can see from the post right after yours we have a few people who like to play and engage. Maybe Board (if it exists) thinks with the amount of engagement and knee jerk responses people don't think the person is a troll?

board exists...I am sure they will show up in a couple days to pretend like they are moderating again. The fact this thread is still open (well past 1000 posts now) proves they have completely checked out though.

 

[SJHovey]

My dad takes all of the correct precautions...the problem is the rest of the people around cant be trusted to do it. (he still has to work because they have almost no savings) According to the Party of Personal Responsibility he should be willing to risk that to make sure things get back up and running. We believe that is bull****.

I dont care if my risk factors are minimal (I am reasonably healthy and take the necessary precautions) if I want to see my father I have to act like I am at risk at all times. Which means when I see people *****ing and moaning because they have to wear a mask at Costco I want to kick them in the nuts. That is why as much as it sucks for my friends in the restaurant business (and me, I will lose about 19k in bartending revenue this year because of COVID), we should have not opened them when we did. (thankfully we havent been burned by it as bad as FL and TX have been) People are needlessly dying because half this country cant be bothered to do the right thing.

You called me coldhearted once because I was willing to let a bunch of small businesses fail. (ironically my dad said similar only about the riots) I dont want anyone to fail...but I want people to live. Human Life >>>>>>>>>>> Bob's Pull Tab and Hooker Sports Bar in Bumbphikistan, Wisconsin. And it isnt just about the people that go to the bar, it is about the people they infect when they go there. Look at all the people who get it at church...or family gatherings. We are a society, as such we have a responsibility to protect EVERYONE...not just those we deem to be young enough they have a future. And while my heart bleeds for small business owners who do the right thing and take the necessary precautions, the truth is their business is not more important than the lives of the average citizen. They can get another job...my mom cant get another life long friend to replace the one COVID took from her.

But let me ask this.

I think I'm right when I report that 75% of the deaths in Minnesota have occurred to people in congregate care facilities. I think it was something like 1200 out of 1600 deaths.

Realistically, how many of those do you think can truly be the result of people going to rodeos in Effie or to Cowboy Jacks in downtown Minneapolis? I mean I don't know, I've only had the misfortune of being in Cowboy Jacks once, but I didn't see a lot of what I would call traditional nursing home types in there.

Nursing homes have been pretty much locked down (something that I've questioned, as you probably recall). But with that being the case, can we really tie the 1200 deaths in nursing homes to twenty-somethings out trying to get laid?

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Nursing homes have been pretty much locked down (something that I've questioned, as you probably recall). But with that being the case, can we really tie the 1200 deaths in nursing homes to twenty-somethings out trying to get laid?

Are you really trying to make the argument that having a higher R naught level and letting the disease persist in a population does not cause downstream effects like continued high mortality in high risk groups?

 

[Swansong]

But let me ask this.

I think I'm right when I report that 75% of the deaths in Minnesota have occurred to people in congregate care facilities. I think it was something like 1200 out of 1600 deaths.

Realistically, how many of those do you think can truly be the result of people going to rodeos in Effie or to Cowboy Jacks in downtown Minneapolis? I mean I don't know, I've only had the misfortune of being in Cowboy Jacks once, but I didn't see a lot of what I would call traditional nursing home types in there.

Nursing homes have been pretty much locked down (something that I've questioned, as you probably recall). But with that being the case, can we really tie the 1200 deaths in nursing homes to twenty-somethings out trying to get laid?

Yes we can. Because healthcare workers have non-work lives too. They need to go to the store sometimes, or have things delivered to them at home. And they come in contact with those 20-somethings "out trying to get laid", who spread COVID to others. And then the healthcare worker brings it into the nursing home. And the store. And wherever else.

The idea that 20 year olds contracting COVID won't have larger impacts is asinine.

 

[Swansong]

What I think the assumptions you are making are-
People enter NH only if they are unable to care for themselves.
People do not want to be there.
Many old People are at the very end of their lives, are DNR so is it worth it to intervene?

Having rounded Nursing homes early in my career, cared for the elderly for a few decades and now teaching in nursing homes I struggle with a lot of that.

Many, many people who are admitted do not belong there. They would be able to stay at home with minimal assistance. They end up admitted because insurance does not pay for assistance in the home. If they try without assistance it leads to falls and other events that are completely preventable. Most developed countries, other than our backwater one, provide for this assistance and keep people in their homes way longer and cheaper. We are stupid, let people get in big trouble and then admit them to an expensive place and then they can't go home because insurance won't pay for help.

Not everyone doesn't want to be there. Some people self admit or are admitted after a fall and decide to stay because they have no assistance at home (for stuff like meals, organizing meds, etc). Again, minimal assistance would probably keep them in their home safely but in our country makes this nigh impossible (all sorts of research showing people are better off and cheaper to have at home but insurance doesn't cover it. That is the only reason they are in house rather than at home.)

There are many, many people who are not DNR. They have all sorts of reasons- religion, still being fairly active and healthy, belief they will get better or will find a way to get assistance to go home. More than half my patients felt it was an affront to God and there were plenty more who didn't think it was time to decide that yet. I would say that less than 10% of the people in the nursing homes where I have been are in a state of waiting to die .

I am really confused with the last part- we need to look at societal costs of our preventative measures, the extent to which those preventative measures contribute to other risk factors like poverty and suicide, and balance it against the 25% of the people victimized by the disease who are not at the very end of their lives. If I'm 95 and have maybe months to live anyway, is it worth it to put millions on soup lines to make sure I get those last few months?
It looks like you are making the assumption that patients get the full court press to the detriment of others in society. This would be true if we had a system that was responsible for caring for all of us. We do not. Our system is profit/insurance based. There is plenty of money if we were not to rely on insurance companies who must turn a profit for their shareholders.

Spent a couple of decades discussing level of care with patients. Recommendation for screening and treatment is tailored to the patient and takes into consideration whether it is likely to be beneficial for that patient. Some insurances impede good medicine using age as a parameter rather than the state of the patient, require tests that might not be appropriate or decline to pay depending on plan.

If I am 95...is it worth it to be sure if I get those last few months? Sounds great. Who decides how long the person has- older people regularly defy logic for surviving and doing fairly OK. Dad les is 89 and has multiple co-morbidities. He can wear out my 24 yr old son who runs marathons. I am pretty sure he would be willing to whoop a55 if he saw that while telling you 'Semper Fi!'

Beyond all that I find it kind of disgusting how willing our culture is to dismiss the olds as a waste of resources. What we have was built by their efforts. Most of them have paid in for yrs. When they no longer have the ability to pay in we throw them away.

I disagree with this. My 93 year old aunt can get fucked. I want to drink in a bar.


(kidding of course)
(I love this post and agree fully)

 

[SJHovey]

Are you really trying to make the argument that having a higher R naught level and letting the disease persist in a population does not cause downstream effects like continued high mortality in high risk groups?

I'm not claiming there is zero effect. However, one of the things that I think you are seeing is that the high risk groups are doing a much better job of protecting themselves (or being protected, if in a congregate care setting) than early on in the pandemic. I think that's part of the reason why in April we saw 35,000 cases per day, with deaths between 2500 and 3000, whereas now we see twice as many daily cases but half as many daily deaths.

 

[rufus]

Who knew Hovey was such a sociopathic dikhead?

 

[TalonsUpPuckDown]

I do remember my friend asking me that, but I don't remember my specific post about it. I assume you or rufus have it saved somewhere and are ready to trot it out at a moments notice.

What was my number? I don't think it was the 20,000 figure because I think that was my guess on the deaths.

I have just always thought that the media, and a lot of people here, lose track of scale.

What if CNN each night started with, "OMG, 8000 people died in the US again today. What is that, 12,000 days in a row?"

I think I remember reading somewhere that something like 60 million people die each year in the world. My response was something like, "***, 60 million people?!?!" It's an incomprehensible number.

1800 people died of heart disease in the US yesterday. And the day before. And the day before that, and so on.

Yeah, it's all tragic when people die. It sucks when it's a loved one or a friend. But a little perspective is useful, too. I don't suggest that we all go cower in Trump's bunker because death is stalking us.

Should we start publishing daily gun deaths on the evening news? These would be preventable deaths if we were to regulate guns like we do cars and airplanes. Had you used this in your list of examples with me I would have had to concede the point ;-)

 

[rufus]

My dad takes all of the correct precautions...the problem is the rest of the people around cant be trusted to do it. (he still has to work because they have almost no savings) According to the Party of Personal Responsibility he should be willing to risk that to make sure things get back up and running. We believe that is bull****.

I dont care if my risk factors are minimal (I am reasonably healthy and take the necessary precautions) if I want to see my father I have to act like I am at risk at all times. Which means when I see people *****ing and moaning because they have to wear a mask at Costco I want to kick them in the nuts. That is why as much as it sucks for my friends in the restaurant business (and me, I will lose about 19k in bartending revenue this year because of COVID), we should have not opened them when we did. (thankfully we havent been burned by it as bad as FL and TX have been) People are needlessly dying because half this country cant be bothered to do the right thing.

You called me coldhearted once because I was willing to let a bunch of small businesses fail. (ironically my dad said similar only about the riots) I dont want anyone to fail...but I want people to live. Human Life >>>>>>>>>>> Bob's Pull Tab and Hooker Sports Bar in Bumbphikistan, Wisconsin. And it isnt just about the people that go to the bar, it is about the people they infect when they go there. Look at all the people who get it at church...or family gatherings. We are a society, as such we have a responsibility to protect EVERYONE...not just those we deem to be young enough they have a future. And while my heart bleeds for small business owners who do the right thing and take the necessary precautions, the truth is their business is not more important than the lives of the average citizen. They can get another job...my mom cant get another life long friend to replace the one COVID took from her.

Not to mention, if we had an actual, functioning government made up of adults, they would be making sure that Bob's Pull Tab and Hooker Sports Bar, and every other business and individual in this country, would be provided at least the minimal resources to to be able to get by until this is over.

There's lots of countries in this world paying people a monthly stipend to live on until this pandemic is gone. Why the RICHEST FUCKING COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, THAT BRIGHT SHINING CITY ON THE HILL American exceptionalism can't is beyond me. Need money? Put a 50% tax on millionaires and above. Everyone else is scrapping and struggling to make ends meet, doing their damndest to keep this country going during this time, why don't they pony up something as well? Let 'em feel what it's like to have to scrimp, if even just the tiniest bit. for once in their lives.

 

[rufus]

I do remember my friend asking me that, but I don't remember my specific post about it. I assume you or rufus have it saved somewhere and are ready to trot it out at a moments notice.

What was my number? I don't think it was the 20,000 figure because I think that was my guess on the deaths.

I have just always thought that the media, and a lot of people here, lose track of scale.

What if CNN each night started with, "OMG, 8000 people died in the US again today. What is that, 12,000 days in a row?"

I think I remember reading somewhere that something like 60 million people die each year in the world. My response was something like, "***, 60 million people?!?!" It's an incomprehensible number.

1800 people died of heart disease in the US yesterday. And the day before. And the day before that, and so on.

Yeah, it's all tragic when people die. It sucks when it's a loved one or a friend. But a little perspective is useful, too. I don't suggest that we all go cower in Trump's bunker because death is stalking us.

Yes, cause that's their time, you sociopathic fuck. Their body has given out.

This Covid thing is taking people before that time would otherwise have happened. Most of these deaths were preventable, and the people dying from it could have lived another 15, 20, 40 more years. In some cases, 70 or more years.

What don't you understand about that, you fucking ghoul?

 

[rufus]

I'm not claiming there is zero effect. However, one of the things that I think you are seeing is that the high risk groups are doing a much better job of protecting themselves (or being protected, if in a congregate care setting) than early on in the pandemic. I think that's part of the reason why in April we saw 35,000 cases per day, with deaths between 2500 and 3000, whereas now we see twice as many daily cases but half as many daily deaths.

Yes, cause they have no other choice, because no one else is gonna protect them. Not you, not the government, not our health and disease specialists, no one. People in this country are dying, 1000/day, the disease is spreading rampant, with no one doing anything to stop it. It should not have to be every man for himself out there, it doesn't have to be the Hunger Games.

Cause a bunch of incredibly stupid people elected a child to be president. "What could it hurt, he can't do worse than the rest of them".

 

[First Time Long Time]

MN high school sports making some changes.
Football and Volleyball moving to spring.

https://www.mprnews.org/amp/story/2...ns-pushed-to-spring?__twitter_impression=true

Damn cautious behavior...

 

[Jeb2020]

Yes, cause that's their time, you sociopathic ****. Their body has given out.

This Covid thing is taking people before that time would otherwise have happened. Most of these deaths were preventable, and the people dying from it could have lived another 15, 20, 40 more years. In some cases, 70 or more years.

What don't you understand about that, you ****ing ghoul?

The average age of a “Covid death” is older than the the average age life expectancy. You know, what you call “cause that’s their time.”

Now back to a “Covid Death”

For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

on average there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.

People like you Rufus are exactly what the problem is. You are so dense you can’t even see it.

 

[burd]

I think it was Hovey who was wondering out loud last week what would transpire at Sturgis this year (week away?). The event is on. City officials apparently concluded that people would come anyway so they decided not to cancel it but to try to manage it. There's no masking requirement in SoDak, so there is no masking mandate for visitors, though it looks like vendors will be required to mask. Expected numbers are down from 600,000+ to around 250,000. Petri Dish, South Dakota.

Pardon me for not linking. Idiot and my parents knew it early on.

 

[Kepler]

Hit em where they live.