Cops 9: You Are What Now?

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

The true sadists on the police force are few and far between.

Here is the disconnect. The whole point of this protest is not that a sadist was allowed on the force. It is that systemic racism means even normal, well-meaning cops commit atrocities in defense of an oppressive system.

I have no doubt that many overseers on slave plantations were trying to do the right thing. But their very mission made them abettors to torture and murder. Likewise, policing in principle is morally neutral or even laudable. But policing to protect the deeply sick American race hierarchy means even the best person on the force is supporting evil.

This is not an attack on cops, it's an attack on the system the cops have to protect.

If you could see that I believe from your prior statements that you would be 100% on board with the protests. The cops aren't the point here. The cops are a symptom, not the disease. The cops are, in fact, victims of the system. I doubt they signed up to be executioners to maintain a racist society and a pulverizing economic order that maims and kills the poor for the marginal greater enrichment of the 1%.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-homicides-data-tracker-htmlstory.html

Where's all the consternation and angst about this?

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/inv...veals-the-final-minutes-of-tony-timpa-s-life/

Where's all the consternation and angst about this?

Bad police officers need to be fired. We all agree on that. Who protects them? Their union maybe for one. There definitely needs to be reform there.

It's not about race, it's about bad cops.

Hey...remember that time you died on a hill telling us how Trump blowing up the Iran deal was a good thing. Those were good times.

As for your consternation...you obviously actually arent paying attention. But dont worry your concern is noted and logged.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

*spit take*

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Why are people scared of the riots and looting? <br><br>The flu kills way more people every year.</p>— Tall Paul (@TallPaul612) <a href="https://twitter.com/TallPaul612/status/1268049839335538688?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 3, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

What is the level above winning? That is beyond A+.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Here is the problem, and it isn't a union problem. The true sadists on the police force are few and far between. They are not the problem, or not the problem for which we can't find a solution. The problem is the rest of the force. Until we can get them past the fear that testifying against or reporting the sadists will leave them hanging without backup the next time they're in a dicey situation, we're going to continue to see these incidents occur.

So what you are saying is that the police are like organized crime....

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Re: Ellison's move - woo boy...

I asked my dad about it (former attorney) and he said that it is A) the right move and B) was completely predictable. Said Third degree was just a placeholder so they could arrest quick without a grand jury. (which legal experts said as well so he didnt exactly break new ground there) As a former defense attorney he said he wouldnt touch this case though even if he thought he had a shot at winning. Even moving venues wont help unless they pick the perfect municipality.

It should be known my dad HATES cops and is also not a fan of Ellison in any way but is 100% behind Ellison taking the case and the tactics being used and despite his belief that cops almost never get convicted thinks all 4 will be done like dinner. Rather enlightening conversation actually.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

I asked my dad about it (former attorney) and he said that it is A) the right move and B) was completely predictable. Said Third degree was just a placeholder so they could arrest quick without a grand jury. (which legal experts said as well so he didnt exactly break new ground there) As a former defense attorney he said he wouldnt touch this case though even if he thought he had a shot at winning. Even moving venues wont help unless they pick the perfect municipality.

It should be known my dad HATES cops and is also not a fan of Ellison in any way but is 100% behind Ellison taking the case and the tactics being used and despite his belief that cops almost never get convicted thinks all 4 will be done like dinner. Rather enlightening conversation actually.

That's actually fascinating. You should get him to post here. The best we can do is guess but he actually knows what's going on. SMEs are good.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

So what you are saying is that the police are like organized crime....

Or mean girls in high school. Same principle.

You know what they say on the streets. Gang violence is the biggest threat to the community and the biggest, most heavily armed gang is the cops.

"Nice black neighborhood you got here. Be a shame if something 'appened to it."

 

[alfablue]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Or mean girls in high school. Same principle.

Seems like we should reconsider standing up and cheering for them in a sporting event.... Which is pretty hollow anyway.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Heard an argument that could made prosecuting the three others difficult. One that centered around them concentrating more on the public that was starting to amass around them only checking in here and there and seeing Chauvin had it under control. Basically "We feared for our lives", but without the fear being what the decedent would do. They were distracted.

The picture of the one cop staring at Chauvin with his knee on the neck will destroy that argument. He not only doesnt look fearful...he looks transfixed and relaxed.

See the issue is everyone has seen what happened. They would have a better chance claiming they cant get a fair trial than claiming they were in fear for their life.

They could raise the idea of not being able to get a fair trial. But since there was protests everywhere in the state I am not sure they could find a spot, even in cop friendly areas, where they will be able to make the "I was in fear for my life" stick. What kind of a ***** cop would you be if you feared a drunk man who was contained and dying on the ground

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

I look forward to your support of the teachers' union, public university tenure, and the unionization of other workers.

I don't think I've ever considered myself anti-union. If I were a working stiff would I be advocating to form a union in my workplace? I'm not so sure about that because I'm not sure the cost to me would equal the benefit. But I'm not a union hater.

I think the primary problem that I've seen with unions here in Minnesota has to do with the way disputes are resolved. Basically, an arbitrator is appointed to decide things like whether a terminated employee should get his or her job back. There are two principal problems with this system. First, most of the arbitrators are drawn from the union or employee side of the equation. You don't see a lot of business owners, or lawyers representing employers, suddenly decide they've had a lifelong dream to be a labor arbitrator. That sort of institutional "bias" tends, imho, to lead to more difficulty in terminating employees and making it stick.

Second, arbitrators are selected by agreement of the parties, or through a "strike" system. If you're not selected, you don't work. Thus, there is at least some incentive to be viewed favorably by both the employer and employee groups and their advocates, to the extent possible. As a result, you can get some halving of the baby, where maybe the guy gets his job back, but is suspended without pay for a lengthy period of time. I don't think you see a lot of "total victory" decisions, or at least not as many as are maybe warranted for one side or the other.

I've always thought that the concept of unions creates a weird conundrum. I think they're are necessary in the public setting because we don't want our police services or our city inspectors or those types of employees subject to political pressure to support the desires of one candidate or another. Unfortunately, they don't work well in the public setting in terms of negotiating terms because from the standpoint of the employer, "it's not my money." If someone else has to pay the pay raise (the public as a whole) it's easier to back down.

On the other hand, private employers can do a great job of negotiating tough. It's their money. But I actually think private sector employees are less at risk of just getting randomly terminated. There are a myriad of employee protection laws that apply to private employees, and most private employers understand there is a cost to constantly replacing employees.

These are generalizations, understand, but they have formed the basis for my opinion that unions are simply a fact of life in the workplace, and are neither inherently evil nor good.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

This is not an attack on cops, it's an attack on the system the cops have to protect.

This needs to be put on a bumper sticker...

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

That's actually fascinating. You should get him to post here. The best we can do is guess but he actually knows what's going on. SMEs are good.

My dad can barely check his email...he is 72 going on 100. He is why I am a Progressive though and why I originally was going to go into law. (along with my cousin Jerry...may he rest in peace) He is an odd contradiction...I should write a book about him some day

He is also super cynical though and doesnt think much will change cause he sees this every 20 years are so. Thinks people (especially White People) are too selfish and self destructive to do what needs to be done. That said he thinks the system is awful and always defends the idea of protesting. He was a big supporter of A.I.M. back in the day and even defended their members a few times.

Ultimately though, he thinks that the need for the public to get their pound of flesh over this will override the usual "cops are basically good" BS juries tend to go with. These cops set the world on fire and someone needs to be made an example of. Also said if he was the attorney and he won he would leave the country and never come back

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

I mean, to be fair, when is the last time Timmy saw a black person in lily white Juneau, WI anyway?

Yesterday at the Pig.

So if black lives matter when it's police brutality, why don't they matter in the streets of Chicago? Ya'll ignoring that article I posted. I wonder why.

This is America. All lives matter.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

No ****, Sherlock.

That's certainly NOT the narrative right now, is it?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Yesterday at the Pig.

So if black lives matter when it's police brutality, why don't they matter in the streets of Chicago? Ya'll ignoring that article I posted. I wonder why.

This is America. All lives matter.

No one is ignoring anything. You just dont like that your point didnt land the way you thought it would.

If all lives mattered we wouldnt be here.

You sound like the people who say "Why do we need Black History Month...when is White History Month"?

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Look everyone, Timmy found a white perp abused by the cops! Surely that negates all the statistics that show minorities are subjected to the vast majority of police abuses!

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

 

[alfablue]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Yesterday at the Pig.

So if black lives matter when it's police brutality, why don't they matter in the streets of Chicago? Ya'll ignoring that article I posted. I wonder why.

This is America. All lives matter.

Nobody is ignoring your article, they are pointing out the fallacy in your conclusion that it's not racism.

Yes, there is a police problem, and once we get the violence from the police to be equal in terms of the population, then it's the number 1 problem. Right now, it's very disproportionate to minorities.

Yes, there is violence between people of the same race- but much of that is due to the economic situation that they collectively find themselves due to endemic racism in the first place.

You suggest it's not racism, when it's more than than anything else. That's where you are wrong.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Yay pure numbers.

According to the census, just over 76% of the population identifies white, just under 13.5% black. That's almost 6:1.

The shootings are 2:1 white, when the population is 6:1 white. Which means that black people are ~3x more likely to get shot and killed by a cop. The same ratio for Hispanic is less than than that, but the odds are far worse than a white person.

And when you look at the prisons, the disparity is there, too- 13% of the total population, and 40% of the prison population.

Same pattern when it comes to executions.

how is that not a race problem?

edit- the uncertainty of the data is very high on your website since about 20% of the victims' race is unknown.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

Many white people (and a few black people) will never accept that the status quo is inherently racist the same way many men (and a few women) could not accept that the system was inherently sexist. And this is multiplied 100x for conservatives. They have a deep psychological need to see That Which Is as That Which Is Right. It's only a coincidence that they're on the top of the pile and everything benefits them.

I doubt Timothy is a bigot. He's just clueless about how much racism there is and what its effects are, and he doesn't understand that neutrality and race-blindness in the face of a significantly racist status quo perpetuates racism and benefits the oppressor. I'm sure the courtiers at Versailles in 1789 were like that. It's not that they were dicks, it's that they were so insulated from the practical consequences of the monstrous system they benefited from that they could, with a pure heart, stand up and quietly explain to the rioters why they were in the wrong and should disperse.

Timothy will go the guillotine rock-hard in his righteousness. He is a product of asymmetric information.

<img src="https://grantland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/giphy-2_gif_static.gif" height=200>

 

[Handyman]

Re: Cops 9: You Are What Now?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BCA expects to have the other three officers in custody sometime today.</p>— Erin Hassanzadeh WCCO (@erinreportsTV) <a href="https://twitter.com/erinreportsTV/status/1268276070396108807?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 3, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>